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Idea for a new contract type: the "pawn"
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RAW23
#21 - 2013-05-30 18:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


To my way of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong), the size of the potential market is orders of magnitude larger than the size of the actual market right now. This one simple proposal could create a land-slide of isk movement in EVE from lenders to borrowers who have been waiting for this for YEARS.


I'm not convinced that this is quite right. I can offer only anecdotal evidence but the it seems to me that there is far more idle isk in the game than there is demand for collateralised loans. Why do I think this? First off, speaking from experience as someone who offered collateralised loans a while back, it is already a buyer’s market where the lenders compete to make the loans rather than the borrowers competing to have their loans taken. Anyone posting on MD (and my understanding is that the situation is the same for people borrowing within alliances) looking for a properly collateralised loan will get it filled very quickly (have a look at how quickly Tanith Yarndemon’s offering and Mechtech’s offerings filled – 200bil and 75bil, each to individual lenders in less than a day). EBANK was never able to find sufficient collateralised loans to absorb the isk it held (one of the reasons it failed). Grendell is sitting on a large pile of isk that others have invested with him and pretty much always has a considerable pot of it lying idle. BMBE, who have been around for getting on for a decade now, had 240 billion isk idle and available for loans at the end of their last reporting month (here). None of this suggests to me that there is a huge pent-up demand for these services that would be solved by the introduction of new mechanics.

Edit:
I said that Tanith and Mechtech had their loans filled in under a day. Looking again, it was actually 12 minutes for Mechtech's 75bil and Tanith also had his 200bil filled 12 minutes after confirmation from the collateral holder.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#22 - 2013-05-30 18:23:59 UTC
RAW23 wrote:


I'm not convinced that this is quite right. I can offer only anecdotal evidence but the it seems to me that there is far more idle isk in the game than there is demand for collateralised loans. Why do I think this? First off, speaking from experience as someone who offered collateralised loans a while back, it is already a buyer’s market where the lenders compete to make the loans rather than the borrowers competing to have their loans taken. Anyone posting on MD (and my understanding is that the situation is the same for people borrowing within alliances) looking for a properly collateralised loan will get it filled very quickly (have a look at how quickly Tanith Yarndemon’s offering and Mechtech’s offerings filled – 200bil and 75bil, each to individual lenders in less than a day). EBANK was never able to find sufficient collateralised loans to absorb the isk it held (one of the reasons it failed). Grendell is sitting on a large pile of isk that others have invested with him and pretty much always has a considerable pot of it lying idle. BMBE, who have been around for getting on for a decade now, had 240 billion isk idle and available for loans at the end of their last reporting month (here). None of this suggests to me that there is a huge pent-up demand for these services that would be solved by the introduction of new mechanics.


I hold your insight in high regard.

I have no reason to question your perception of the market the way it works today and I do not. The question is if you made the market dynamic, would it still function like this?

I personally don't believe it would

As for EBank. I wasn't close to the fire but IIRC EBAnk died because they made a 250bil uninsured loan that defaulted and then their CEO made off with 600bil of corp assets.

The resulting bank run twisted their neck.

These are all things my proposal is intended to avoid.

T-
Adunh Slavy
#23 - 2013-05-30 18:30:51 UTC
RAW23 wrote:

More ISK than things to do with it.


Off topic comment.

Points out why Eve needs more things to do and more divisions of labor. Not to mention stocks and other such ideas - The game needs places for the wealth to flow.

Goes back to the inoften made statement about the broken window fallacy, and how it is not exactly fallacious in Eve. The trouble is, the wealth continues to accumulate and is simply redistributed by creation and destruction but builds none the less, despite the fallacy.

Eve needs more consumables and divisions of labor.

Anyway ... back to our normally scheduled MD wishful thinking ...

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
RAW23
#24 - 2013-05-30 18:34:22 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


As for EBank. I wasn't close to the fire but IIRC EBAnk died because they made a 250bil uninsured loan that defaulted and then their CEO made off with 600bil of corp assets.

The resulting bank run twisted their neck.

These are all things my proposal is intended to avoid.

T-


Lot's of other things caused the EBANK collapse (in the living hell of its last two years after the collapse it became clear that it was a failing business long before the scam) but, as you say, the failure of a large unsecured loan was a catalyst. My point with reference to them is that they ended up giving out uncollateralised, and thus unsafe, loans because the market for their collateralised loans wasn't big enough.


Quote:

I have no reason to question your perception of the market the way it works today and I do not. The question is if you made the market dynamic, would it still function like this?

I personally don't believe it would


I'm happy to be persuaded of this but I just haven't seen much in the way of evidence pointing in this direction.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#25 - 2013-05-30 18:46:01 UTC
RAW23 wrote:

My point with reference to them is that they ended up giving out uncollateralised, and thus unsafe, loans because the market for their collateralised loans wasn't big enough.

Fair enough. Now I can place your "solution without a problem" comment.

Quote:

I'm happy to be persuaded of this but I just haven't seen much in the way of evidence pointing in this direction.


I personally think this is one of those markets that will emerge only after the "average" player starts to believe that (a) everyone trying to borrow money isn't trying to scam them and (b) everyone trying to lend money isn't trying to scam them.

The way it is right now, there is *no* legitimate mechanism by which to lend or borrow money.

The very moment that such a mechanism exists. People will use it.

T-

(someone told me that I shouldn't sign my posts because it looked arrogant... I can't help it. I'm everything except arrogant but I like to sign my posts)
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#26 - 2013-05-30 18:49:30 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Goes back to the inoften made statement about the broken window fallacy.


This betrays both your age and your education. There are few (if any) who had any idea what you meant by this.
Adunh Slavy
#27 - 2013-05-30 19:02:49 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Goes back to the inoften made statement about the broken window fallacy.

This betrays both your age and your education. There are few (if any) who had any idea what you meant by this.


There are few in the MD forums who've read Bastiat. Just a bit esoteric for most threads, so doesn't come up much. It's worth pointing out at times however, even tangents, when there might be something that can help wealth find other expressions beyond twiddling thumbs in wallets or being eaten by an ISK sink.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
RAW23
#28 - 2013-05-30 19:04:27 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
RAW23 wrote:

More ISK than things to do with it.


Off topic comment.

Points out why Eve needs more things to do and more divisions of labor. Not to mention stocks and other such ideas - The game needs places for the wealth to flow.

Goes back to the inoften made statement about the broken window fallacy, and how it is not exactly fallacious in Eve. The trouble is, the wealth continues to accumulate and is simply redistributed by creation and destruction but builds none the less, despite the fallacy.

Eve needs more consumables and divisions of labor.

Anyway ... back to our normally scheduled MD wishful thinking ...


Eve needs a negative interest bearing wallet that makes you pay a monthly percentage if you want to keep your isk out of space and secure. Otherwise you have to carry your wealth in lootable and destructible cash. Twisted

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#29 - 2013-05-30 19:05:09 UTC
The fact that a tiny percentage of Eve pilots know about the forums, let alone MD and third parties, is enough for me to support this idea.

Why should the greater Eve community not have this option in-game?

I do not think that this new type of contract will undermine the trust-game that is played in MD.

I propose that this idea be posted in the F&I forum, and be put on the list that MD presents biannually to the CSM (which has proven to be of great value in wrapping fish and chips).

Any colour you like.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#30 - 2013-05-30 19:34:43 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

Goes back to the inoften made statement about the broken window fallacy.

This betrays both your age and your education. There are few (if any) who had any idea what you meant by this.


There are few in the MD forums who've read Bastiat. Just a bit esoteric for most threads, so doesn't come up much. It's worth pointing out at times however, even tangents, when there might be something that can help wealth find other expressions beyond twiddling thumbs in wallets or being eaten by an ISK sink.


I'd like to know what your degreee was in.

Mine was a double major in computer science and English Literature. LOL... Initially I was slated to go work for Intel or Microsoft but the English Faculty had .... well... girls.

I evenually graduated... being the only 5-alarm geek at our university with a 150+QI, a 6-pack, 10 years of martial arts training, an "Indiana Jones" swagger (so I heard) and a modest self image.....

Women ... well.... yeah.....

But I didn't really care....I spent 9 months in a library and learned about Economics much later by reading voraciously and intelligently and auditing Berkeley.... :)
Adunh Slavy
#31 - 2013-05-30 20:02:08 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

I'd like to know what your degreee was in.



Beer and Girls, with minors in English, Econ and Music.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#32 - 2013-05-30 20:09:04 UTC
RAW23 wrote:

Eve needs a negative interest bearing wallet that makes you pay a monthly percentage if you want to keep your isk out of space and secure. Otherwise you have to carry your wealth in lootable and destructible cash. Twisted


Eeek.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#33 - 2013-05-30 21:30:40 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

I'd like to know what your degreee was in.



Beer and Girls, with minors in English, Econ and Music.


I'm surprised.... you talk the talk.....

I'm not surprised to see music on your list..... In my experience most .... er... "gifted " people are musical.

In my case I'm minorly musical. I played trumpet in a jazz band (we even made an album and played in the main concourse in Disneyland ... oh yeah.... )... I refused a scolarship at an American university because I wanted to study computer science ..... (dumb dumb dumb)...

My daughter is musical though..... She's one of the few people I've ever met who in terms of raw intelligence leaves me in her dust........ Put that girl behind a piano and magic happens.... Her hands touch the keys and her pling-pling-pling turns into a dreamy melodic esoterica.

She's 14 years old and last week she played this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlvXneu6oY at a piano recital because she didn't have time to practice and needed to play something that she could read from the page......

Am I proud....

Fuckyeah.......

I heard her and literally cried.



Adunh Slavy
#34 - 2013-05-30 21:52:10 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

I heard her and literally cried.


Just make sure to do it in key, else the others at the recital may be annoyed.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
The Fukuzawa
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-05-30 22:17:34 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Before putting this up on the features ideas I'd like to bounce this idea around in MD

A bit of background. A friend of mine recently bought a few hundred armageddons that he's aware he'll have to sit on for maybe 6 months or a year before selling. He made a passing comment to me that he'd buy more but he didn't like having too much isk "locked up" in stacks of inventory for extended periods of time.

On the same day I read a thread by someone on the forums who was investing heavily in procurers because he's sure he'll double his money at some point.... knowing that it could take years.

Which triggered a thought.

Wouldn't it be nice if if we had some way for two players to enter into a contract that would allow one player to "pawn" a stack of inventory for a period of time.

The person pawning the inventory could "park" it while they wait for the market to adjust and get some liquid isk to churn

The person giving the loan would have a guarantee that they would either get interest on their loan or take posession of the inventory at the end of the day.

What would be needed is a new type of contract, a "pawn" contract.

How I see this working is as follows:

1) A player wanting to "pawn" a stack of inventory creates a public contract. The contract contains
a) The inventory
b) The amount of money they want to borrow against that inventory.
c) A percentage of interest offered
d) A duration for the contract up to ... say ... 3 months

2) A potential investor sees the contract under the "Pawn" type in the available contracts and decides that they like the deal being offered and accepts it.

3) Upon accepting the contract, the money goes to the person who offered the item(s) for pawn but the items themselves go in to Escrow. This way neither the buyer nor the seller actually have ACCESS to the inventory.

4) At any point before the contract expires the person who pawned their stuff can "redeem" it, at which point, the principle plus the interest goes into the wallet of the person who accepted it.

5) If the contract expires and the person who took the loan hasn't redeemed his inventory yet, then the investor can "claim" the inventory and it appears in his hangar, at which point the contract is also completed.

This is different than the old "loans" type because (a) it's public, (b) because the inventory enters escrow as opposed to changing hands and (c) because both the person who pawned their stuff and the person who gave the loan can both make a claim on the item(s) in escrow (redeem or claim) depending on the status of the contract.

To my way of thinking this creates a way for people wanting loans and people wanting to invest to find each other. The key ingredient here being the escrow constuction by which nobody has actual physical possession of the collateral until the contract is terminated by one party or the other.

I think this could all be implemented fairly easily by expanding the existing contracts functionality.

comments?


This is a great ******* idea, and would make our business run a lot smoother. We do deals like this, but it would be a lot easier if there was a contract for it because most players think we are trying to scam.

! ! ! New Eden Trade Group is paying monthly interest to investors, contact me if interested ! ! !

If you already assume we are scammers without looking at what we offer objectively, go ahead and F*** off.

Thank you, that is all.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#36 - 2013-05-30 22:31:21 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

I heard her and literally cried.


Just make sure to do it in key, else the others at the recital may be annoyed.


Indeed.

Sitting in on her recital and hearing that child play something that I'm sure (100% sure) I couldn't play ....

and then to realize that she only played that because he thought it was easy.....

Mean....OMG
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