Market Discussions

Unless we can also see what a player's credit history is like, this could get messy, fast.

Further, there's the risk of scuttled loans. "My collateral just crashed in price because they buffed X, Y, Z. Screw it. MONEY."

The logic is sound, but it potentially takes away the need for meta-markets.

If you get a loan and you add collateral, in the higher range, that is basically a pawned contract. The added benefit of the current meta alternative is that you can have the pawned goods held by a neutral third party.

Adding something like this into the client would need to be very balanced.

I see your idea as a potential idea in regards to creating an npc based service, both regarding the pawn idea, but also regarding potential npc "banking".. So the feature would have setting that makes it a mix of contract types. The important thing being that you could also contract a pawn/loan to npc but at a lot worse payout. This would make it a lot more valid for players to start looking into and competing with these services.

The current state of most of EVE/CCP npc economy is that is totally unbalanced and as such broken, and bending the competition in npc favor. The huge needed overhaul is to tweak features like the one suggested, and the existing ones to be nerfed compared to similar player to player based services..


So basically I agree with your suggested idea, but it should go into a pile of a great rebalance patch..

Surely it would impact the "player created" mini-eco-system that has developed in MD, but it also could expand the entire financial market Eve wide and shift that micro-system into high gear. The basic idea is sound and alleviates a lot of the trust issues we all know exist. Anything we can support to help in that regard is a good thing.

Now, if we can add to the idea that these contracts, while in progress could be sold to yet another party .... suddenly in-game collateralized bonds are born, and we can get some market driven interest rates going.

I would make this a bit different. (Sorry for the feature creep, dismiss it if you want to, Tinu.)

a) the inventory
b) the minimum bid
c) duration
d) the buy back price


The player (the person pawning ... pawnee?) then places this contract on auction. It stays for seven days, high bidder wins the contract at the end of seven days. The interest rate is implied and is set by those who bid.

The person who made the loan (the pawner) may then place the contract back on the auction block, so long as its time to completion is 7+ days. They also have the ability to change the minimum bid.

Poof: bonds & market set interest rates.

i would prefer either the first or both versions, but not just the second. sometimes you need liquid isk NAO, so waiting a week is not an option.

Oh well yeah. that's what the op proposes. As for NPC fees ... 16,500? whatever it is for a contract.

I'm all for this new type of contract!

I've actually got 20bil that I am looking to invest in collaterallised loans or pawn contracts if they are implemented after coming back to the game after a 3 year break... a lot has changed :)

I have two suggestions adding to the proposed pawn contracts:

1. An extension option (just like a pawn broker would allow):
The investor accepts a pawn contract and lends 1b for 1 week for 5% and collateral in escrow.
Towards the end of the contract term, the client asks for an extension while paying the interest all-ready accrued (50m), and offers terms to extend ie another 5% for another week
The investor chooses whether to accept the extension at proposed terms or couteroffer, giving the client additional time while the investor is still generating interest on the loan.

2. Negotiating the amount to lend:
With the client putting up the collateral and auctioning off the pawn contract - we should also be able to bid on how much we're prepared to lend on their particular contract.

eg, The client puts up a contract with collateral (such as a hulk) and wants to pawn it for 200m with the proposal of 210m repayment in 1 month, I counter propose that I would be willing to pawn it for 170m and repayment of 180m for 1 month. I am happy with the 10m profit, but not happy with the value of the collateral...

A counter proposal on loan amount would be necessary as the amount the client is wanting to borrow against the collateral leaves no or very little equity and thus incentive for the loan to be repaid.

just my 2c...

it sounds like there is some interest in this idea.

Has anyone seen this particular proposal before? It might be worth proposing it on the features forum after all...

Actually we don't disagree here. In a number of bond-like threads, it's been my position that if someone is in default, they be set suspect by crimewatch or kill rights be given or something like that be done. The proposal in the OP doesn't need gun justice since it is a collateralized agreement.

Would I prefer something that is more representative of bonds and has in game consequences that result in ships blowing up? Yes. But any proposal that comes along, that can advance the financial markets in the game, will get my support, even if it is not my ideal.

I didn't address this the first time around because I thought it was intended to be cynical. I have a better understanding of the point RAW23 is trying to make now so I'll give you my vision about it.

First of all, I think he has a point. There is a small niche fringe of what can only be described as true entrepreneurs who are willing to take risks and engage in this deal making. I can really appreciate that the act of taking the risk an being (or becoming) a good judge of character can say something about you. My proposal takes the guesswork out of that to a certain extent. If loans were done via a pawn system then the lender would have to be a good judge of markets, not a good judge of character.

That said, I believe that the two can co-exist. Not all of the deals being made in MD would fit into the paradigm I'm suggesting and as such there will still be a legitimate niche for the true "venture capitalist" to explore their niche. In fact, having the mundane deals put into game could potentially make the MD eco-system more creative and interesting for those who participate. The volume of deals may fall but the deals being made will continue to impress us.

Moreover, I believe that the growth of a legitimate system of relatively low-risk lending and borrowing in EVE has an ENORMOUS added value to the wider EVE community. What I would foresee would be a LOT of short term deals being made so that someone who, for example, hasn't been very active because of RL can PLEX an account for another month or two by (...whatever...) putting their dread that they hardly ever use into pawn and so forth. My gut feeling is that the pawn system in game will be used just like it is in real life.... as a mechanism by which micro-loans can be facilitated.

To my way of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong), the size of the potential market is orders of magnitude larger than the size of the actual market right now. This one simple proposal could create a land-slide of isk movement in EVE from lenders to borrowers who ahve been waiting for this for YEARS. It could *even* make uncollateralized deals possible in game (thinking of new players wanting to buy that first mining ship by pawning a shuttle for 100mil isk) for those who feel that their judgement of character could be taken to the next level.

In short... it's not truncating the existing system, it's opening new and very lucrative doors.

Secondly, CCP does allow for scamming and yes, for better or worse it's part of the game. Strangely (perhaps) although I've never scammed anyone myself, I do believe it adds content. I feel badly for newbies to read Jita local chat but I believe CCP does the right thing to allow it. That said, I don't think that allowing scamming should be a reason to prohibit (inhibit) the growth of a legitimate financial market in game. I believe both can exist side by side.

Moreover... I believe the growth of a legitimate financial system actually opens up new avenues for scamming. I used the example of the legitimate miner wanting an uncollateralized loan for their first mining ship.... this same avenue is open to scammers who would offer a shuttle for 100mil with the express intent of selling a shuttle for 100mil. It would be up to people like RAW23 to use their advanced people skills to fish out the legitimate miners from the scammers......