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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2013-06-02 01:21:44 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:

Furthermore, even if you mistook your response as applicable to my response, do you think CCP would want that?
Check this out: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount It's a list of alliances in EVE, sorted by members, and try to see how many of the top20 alliances do not have 0.0 sov. Now, imagine the face of any CCP employee if those accounts unsubbed.
ALONE FOR THAT REASON is your argument terrible and dysfunctional.


Y'know, if it were some hisec miner saying "CCP IF U EVR DO THIS WE'LL ALL UNSUB!!!!", they'd be laughed at. Basically 'cos , 9 times out of 10, they'd be full of ****.
Which was not related to what I said originally.
What I responded to was an earlier post of his, saying that a number of HS people would move in if 0.0 entities moved out. To which I can say, "yeah, no 'human excrement in 4 letters', Sherlock!", and then I explained how, even if new entities from HS replaced "the old guard", CCP would generally not want the old 0.0 players gone, because of the number of subs they represent.
But seriously, you read the full quotes and still take that last part out of context?
The part you quote was my rebuttal at a totally unrelated post of himself that he quoted - not something I brought up. My thought when writing what you quote was "maybe he thinks his argument works if it had been directed at someone who argued what he might be replying to", which I showed would most likely not be the case.
So please, don't take my statements out of context, when you did have access to the whole context.
It's bad for the discussion.


I just looked again. Doesn't seem out of context. Your initial reply was so hyperbolic as to be ridiculous - ie, that "something like removing freighters and jumpfreighters from HS, and any jump-capable ship from LS" would make nullseccers unsub en masse as it would be "suicide-inducing"..

CCP wouldn't be losing all those subs you said they would because, as Mortlock said, 9 out of 10 would suck it up and carry on.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#582 - 2013-06-02 01:24:05 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:

As soon as you provide a acceptable list of Logistic alts from your alliance, showing clear API losses of JF, in use in low sec or null sec, that are CLEARLY members of your Logistic wing( we know its there its the same people that haul the loads of alliance moon poo to high sec)

But you cant do that can you, because they have no losses of any notable amount, because they NEVER DIE during there runs.


This is by far the craziest pubbie post I have ever seen.

There are thousands of dead JF for you to see on EVE-Kill but they don't count because a handful of people who pay attention to what they are doing don't die very often. That must mean JF are uncatchable! If you disagree with me I will demand the API of every single alt in your logistics chain whileignoring the massive pile of facts that blows my argument out of the water!
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2013-06-02 01:29:46 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:

Furthermore, even if you mistook your response as applicable to my response, do you think CCP would want that?
Check this out: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount It's a list of alliances in EVE, sorted by members, and try to see how many of the top20 alliances do not have 0.0 sov. Now, imagine the face of any CCP employee if those accounts unsubbed.
ALONE FOR THAT REASON is your argument terrible and dysfunctional.


Y'know, if it were some hisec miner saying "CCP IF U EVR DO THIS WE'LL ALL UNSUB!!!!", they'd be laughed at. Basically 'cos , 9 times out of 10, they'd be full of ****.
Which was not related to what I said originally.
What I responded to was an earlier post of his, saying that a number of HS people would move in if 0.0 entities moved out. To which I can say, "yeah, no 'human excrement in 4 letters', Sherlock!", and then I explained how, even if new entities from HS replaced "the old guard", CCP would generally not want the old 0.0 players gone, because of the number of subs they represent.
But seriously, you read the full quotes and still take that last part out of context?
The part you quote was my rebuttal at a totally unrelated post of himself that he quoted - not something I brought up. My thought when writing what you quote was "maybe he thinks his argument works if it had been directed at someone who argued what he might be replying to", which I showed would most likely not be the case.
So please, don't take my statements out of context, when you did have access to the whole context.
It's bad for the discussion.


I just looked again. Doesn't seem out of context. Your initial reply was so hyperbolic as to be ridiculous - ie, that "something like removing freighters and jumpfreighters from HS, and any jump-capable ship from LS" would make nullseccers unsub en masse as it would be "suicide-inducing"..

CCP wouldn't be losing all those subs you said they would because, as Mortlock said, 9 out of 10 would suck it up and carry on.



CCP's nurfed null secs toys before, anoms, you didn't unsub, titans didn't unsub, JB didn't unsub.

If they changed cyno's im sure only a few would rage quit, AFTER they died a few times because there unable to adapt to the change.





They keep acting as if im making this post as a OMFG NURF NULL BECAUSE, when its a ADD MORE GAME PLAY.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#584 - 2013-06-02 01:35:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:

As soon as you provide a acceptable list of Logistic alts from your alliance, showing clear API losses of JF, in use in low sec or null sec, that are CLEARLY members of your Logistic wing( we know its there its the same people that haul the loads of alliance moon poo to high sec)

But you cant do that can you, because they have no losses of any notable amount, because they NEVER DIE during there runs.


This is by far the craziest pubbie post I have ever seen.

There are thousands of dead JF for you to see on EVE-Kill but they don't count because a handful of people who pay attention to what they are doing don't die very often. That must mean JF are uncatchable! If you disagree with me I will demand the API of every single alt in your logistics chain whileignoring the massive pile of facts that blows my argument out of the water!






If there not ACTIVE member's of the group of people that Supply YOUR FLEET SHIPS, YOUR GUNS, YOUR AMMO, POS FUEL, and all the other items it takes to keep your alliance in fighting condition every day of the week, they ARE irrelevant to this conversation.

I could kill every pubbie Null member's JF and so long as your logistic guys don't make any massive errors you would still function as a alliance.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#585 - 2013-06-02 01:40:57 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:





If there not ACTIVE member's of the group of people that Supply YOUR FLEET SHIPS, YOUR GUNS, YOUR AMMO, POS FUEL, and all the other items it takes to keep your alliance in fighting condition every day of the week, they ARE irrelevant to this conversation.



How?

They are all doing the exact same job.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2013-06-02 01:47:55 UTC
Let me make you a List of changes, WHY it needs changed, and a basic out line of what it would do.



POS's Revamp.

Fixing POS's to replace the current **** outposts

Modular, infinite scalability( given limitless isk and fuel) destructible, renforceable, dock-able.


Null Industry Buff.

Fix in the POS's Rebalance, mineral Rebalance.


Fast travel.

Nurfing cyno's and titan bridges.

Creates more gate traffic, promotes more player interaction on gates, makes logistic's harder, promotes null industry.


Fix thos 3 things and see EvE's null sec and low sec thrive.





If your argument is its STILL not as safe as high sec your are correct null will NEVER be as safe as high sec, but that's inherent in it being Null sec, if you want your null to be as safe as high sec you don't belong out there in the first place.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#587 - 2013-06-02 01:54:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:





If there not ACTIVE member's of the group of people that Supply YOUR FLEET SHIPS, YOUR GUNS, YOUR AMMO, POS FUEL, and all the other items it takes to keep your alliance in fighting condition every day of the week, they ARE irrelevant to this conversation.



How?

They are all doing the exact same job.





No there not, i know from PLAYING as part of the CFC that you have a logistic's wing that moves things for your alliance group, supply's staging area's dose all of this FOR your member's as dose most of the other alliances in null sec.


These people are not the same people that die every few day's to jumping in to an unscouted cyno beacon, get killed in there ratting carriers, if these people died as much as your random null scrub's they would NEVER be trusted to get things from point A to point B, the reason they have these job IS because they never die and take every precaution to be unkillable, so if fact your REAL supply lines are virtually immune to attack.


baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#588 - 2013-06-02 01:59:31 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




No there not



Ok so other than transporting goods what other jobs do they do?
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2013-06-02 02:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




No there not



Ok so other than transporting goods what other jobs do they do?




You know why they don't matter don't you?

Because there just grunts doing grunt things, if they die no one cares besides them and there friends that lost junk.


If your real logistic guys died, you would have alliance less ships to hand out, less alliance fuel for your POS's, less alliance moon poo would make it to market resulting in less alliance ISK to buy and replace war assets with.





You know, seeing as freighters and JF, have so little HP if these changes came about i could see them getting a massive HP, JUST so there would be fights around them. It would only be fair.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#590 - 2013-06-02 02:09:14 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




No there not



Ok so other than transporting goods what other jobs do they do?




You know why they don't matter don't you?

Because there just grunts doing grunt things, if they die no one cares besides them and there friends that lost junk.


If your real logistic guys died, you would have alliance less ships to hand out, less alliance fuel for your POS's, less alliance moon poo would make it to market resulting in less alliance ISK to buy and replace war assets with.


Still doesn't change the fact that they are JF and that JF clearly are not untouchable given that thousands have died.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#591 - 2013-06-02 02:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




No there not



Ok so other than transporting goods what other jobs do they do?




You know why they don't matter don't you?

Because there just grunts doing grunt things, if they die no one cares besides them and there friends that lost junk.


If your real logistic guys died, you would have alliance less ships to hand out, less alliance fuel for your POS's, less alliance moon poo would make it to market resulting in less alliance ISK to buy and replace war assets with.


Still doesn't change the fact that they are JF and that JF clearly are not untouchable given that thousands have died.




I, Stonecrusher Mortlock, have never said JF where unkillable, i said your supply lines are impossible in interfere with, there's a deference.



If you could catch your people moving alliance supply's, they die just fine.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#592 - 2013-06-02 02:14:57 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




I, Stonecrusher Mortlock, have never said JF where unkillable, i said your supply lines are impossible in interfere with, there's a deference.


If only that was true.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#593 - 2013-06-02 04:01:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
I, Stonecrusher Mortlock, have never said JF where unkillable, i said your supply lines are impossible in interfere with, there's a deference.

If only that was true.

Yeah, he isn't deferring to you at all.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#594 - 2013-06-02 08:52:15 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
I just looked again. Doesn't seem out of context. Your initial reply was so hyperbolic as to be ridiculous - ie, that "something like removing freighters and jumpfreighters from HS, and any jump-capable ship from LS" would make nullseccers unsub en masse as it would be "suicide-inducing"..

CCP wouldn't be losing all those subs you said they would because, as Mortlock said, 9 out of 10 would suck it up and carry on.
Then please re-read it.
I'm guessing it is this part that you're referring to?
Quote:
I freely acknowledge that, if you make something so suicide-inducing that it makes people stop it or quit the game, everything that is not that is by comparison better. Not better by default, but better by comparison.
Now that we have the quote on the table, would you please stop misrepresenting it?
While you're at it, please don't put words in my post.Smile
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#595 - 2013-06-02 09:27:13 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
I just looked again. Doesn't seem out of context. Your initial reply was so hyperbolic as to be ridiculous - ie, that "something like removing freighters and jumpfreighters from HS, and any jump-capable ship from LS" would make nullseccers unsub en masse as it would be "suicide-inducing"..

CCP wouldn't be losing all those subs you said they would because, as Mortlock said, 9 out of 10 would suck it up and carry on.
Then please re-read it.
I'm guessing it is this part that you're referring to?
Quote:
I freely acknowledge that, if you make something so suicide-inducing that it makes people stop it or quit the game, everything that is not that is by comparison better. Not better by default, but better by comparison.
Now that we have the quote on the table, would you please stop misrepresenting it?
While you're at it, please don't put words in my post.Smile

Hmm, we should replace cyno-based logistics with structure-shooting based logistics.

Like you have to defend your infrastructure hub, because it provides your logistical infrastructure (rather than the cyno-based system).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#596 - 2013-06-02 09:36:45 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Hmm, we should replace cyno-based logistics with structure-shooting based logistics.

Like you have to defend your infrastructure hub, because it provides your logistical infrastructure (rather than the cyno-based system).


But how would we then be able to sacrifice our freighters to Brack Region?
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#597 - 2013-06-02 09:41:27 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Hmm, we should replace cyno-based logistics with structure-shooting based logistics.

Like you have to defend your infrastructure hub, because it provides your logistical infrastructure (rather than the cyno-based system).
After all the fights against SOLAR, I would love nothing more than to grind more structure.
Truly, all the action we had in the East has left us wanting for calmer waters.
A quick little structure grind would surely be good to alleviate all ailments.What?
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2013-06-02 12:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
baltec1 wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




I, Stonecrusher Mortlock, have never said JF where unkillable, i said your supply lines are impossible in interfere with, there's a deference.


If only that was true.





Context, use it, and stop acting like your a moron, i clearly acknowledged JF's die, i even acknowledged that and KB stats you linked would be populated with random Grunts doing random grunt things and dying in stupid ways, Before any KB stats where posted.

THE hole of this thread i been working under the assumption you read the first post, and new what we where talking about.

You have proven, that your reading comprehension skills are about as good as google translate's, as you see words you know what each word means, but have no clue the context there used in.



If your planning to act like a moron for the foreseeable further i have no reason to continue responding to any thing you post.



Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.

Try as you might there's no effective way to cut your opponent off.


Warp dec there haulers? - NPC Corp

Gank them? - sec status drops to quickly to be effective.

Attack them in low sec or Null? - Local Intel, Instant 100% correct, check local see person, don't undock/jump.

AFK in Local? - add new jump points, AFKer cant be in every system at one time.

As it stands now in eve your supply lines are 99% safe 99% of the time if you only take the simplest of precautions.

Baring the random tard the logistic back bone of every group in EvE is safely tucked away behind Extremely easy counters.




When i first started playing EvE i Wanted to be a pirate praying on the Haulers moving the Supply's from high sec to low and null, and the riches from null/low to high-sec. In the start it was great fun fighting the fleets guarding these haulers for the hopes of getting the sweet loot that was inside of them. We Even had deals going to actively hunt some corps supply lines for a while.

But that Play stile is long dead, and in the past years of eve.

Now i spend my time patrolling WHs for even a small reminder of the days of old.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2013-06-02 12:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Let me make you a List of changes, WHY it needs changed, and a basic out line of what it would do.



POS's Revamp.

Fixing POS's to replace the current **** outposts/POS's

Modular, infinite scalability( given limitless isk and fuel) destructible, renforceable, dock-able.


Null Industry Buff.

Fix in the POS's Rebalance, mineral Rebalance.


Fast travel.

Nurfing cyno's and titan bridges.

Creates more gate traffic, promotes more player interaction on gates, makes logistic's harder, promotes null industry.


Fix thos 3 things and see EvE's null sec and low sec thrive.





If your argument is its STILL not as safe as high sec your are correct null will NEVER be as safe as high sec, but that's inherent in it being Null sec, if you want your null to be as safe as high sec you don't belong out there in the first place.




No ones said Why none of this could not be done, or posted the adverse effects, besides a strawman argument of WE WOULD ALL QUIT, that we all know is untrue.





Edit for post eating forums.
The argument is invalid for Alphaing freighters/JF, you simply give them a massive HP BUFF, its clearly not imbalanced as they have no guns, and they move about as fast as a small moon. It gives you ample time to defend them, as well.



And you cant give it a BUT GANKING! as CCP looks at ganking the same way they do living inside of a WH, Meh its cool you can do it, but we are not going to activity build for or take it away.

If a change inadvertently nurfs ( crime watch ) or buffs ( buffing dessies ) ganking, ccp is fine with it as you can still gank people.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#600 - 2013-06-02 12:53:11 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:




If your planning to act like a moron for the foreseeable further i have no reason to continue responding to any thing you post.


Let me give you a history lesson.

When we took out white noise a few years ago GIA managed to all but wipe out their logistics. They managed to find out what their fleets needed and over the span of a few weeks crippled their ability to get those supplies. It was a combination of blowing up their Haulers, market manipulation and good use of spies. This resulted in WN being unable to resupply their losses and the collapse of their entire empire in under two weeks.

Crippling an enemies logistics is not easy but entirely possible to pull off.