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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#401 - 2013-05-31 20:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sofia Wolf
baltec1 wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:


While that is likely true, or close to be true, I’ll bet that even those few slots are mostly unused.



They are state owned and in use at all times.


Space communism causes shortage of manufacturing slots.P

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#402 - 2013-05-31 20:24:42 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Our many many industrial, R&D, invention, mission etc etc alts are in highsec

That's the point. We already have the industrial skills tyvm; we don't need to specifically recruit them. It's just not worth applying them in the space we own. I'm pretty sure that VANIS at least has more NPC corp empire alts than actual official corp members.
...


Good! So find yourself nice Caldari outputs for RnD, and minmatar outpost for mining/rating and bring your alts back to Initiative space. And don't give us “there are not enough slots”, I’m sure there is enough, especialy RnD slots given that now in high sec it takes months to get one free. Sansha forsaken/forgone hubs are better then most high sec missions so I don’t know why are you wasting your time in higsec. 0.0 is where the isk is. Bring your alts home. Get rich.


This post wins the "disconnected from reality" award. Well done.


Are you saying high sec pve is more profitable then 0.0 pve? I call bull on that. Only pve in high sec that is better then 0.0 is incursion, and they require group effort. For solo pve there is nothing in higsec that compares to 0.0.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#403 - 2013-05-31 20:25:54 UTC
well you can attack supply lines with good intel, but you must do it with out a war declaration, so you just find their logistics and then it it was destroyers and yes its a major blow to any corp who thought they was immune.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#404 - 2013-05-31 20:30:30 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:

Space communism causes shortage of manufacturing slots.P


Shortage of manufacturing slots means they only get used for our most important needs.
Gwenywell Shumuku
#405 - 2013-05-31 20:39:19 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:


Link footage please. Interested to look at it to be honest.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt0-Dgk5EBw

nothing fancy, but you get the idea.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#406 - 2013-05-31 20:42:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:


I must say that is not entirely true.


Put all of CFC space together and we have less production slots than one of the high sec systems dispite spending hundreds of billions in improving it.

The mechanics simply do not allow industry to happen in 0.0 so there is no point in going for industrial players or miners.




I'm watching this back and forth and I think you and Sofia are correct.

Why there is such a running disagreement at this point is a mystery to me.


Yes null needs more slots.

Yes the null corps need to augment their ranks and stop worrying about KD ratios.

More slots without more industrialists won't help.
More industrialists without more slots won't help.

The solution is obvious: more slots and a change in attitude.

Why would that be so hard?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#407 - 2013-05-31 20:45:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:

Space communism causes shortage of manufacturing slots.P


Shortage of manufacturing slots means they only get used for our most important needs.


Well CFC is better organised then most entries, so I probably should not be surprised they use their slots more efficiently. My guess they are mostly used to make capital ships and capital ship components.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#408 - 2013-05-31 20:46:25 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Why would that be so hard?


Sofia seems to think we don't take on industrialists now because we hate them. This is not true.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#409 - 2013-05-31 20:47:38 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


I'm watching this back and forth and I think you and Sofia are correct.

Why there is such a running disagreement at this point is a mystery to me.


Yes null needs more slots.

Yes the null corps need to augment their ranks and stop worrying about KD ratios.

More slots without more industrialists won't help.
More industrialists without more slots won't help.

The solution is obvious: more slots and a change in attitude.

Why would that be so hard?


qft

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#410 - 2013-05-31 20:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Our many many industrial, R&D, invention, mission etc etc alts are in highsec

That's the point. We already have the industrial skills tyvm; we don't need to specifically recruit them. It's just not worth applying them in the space we own. I'm pretty sure that VANIS at least has more NPC corp empire alts than actual official corp members.
...


Good! So find yourself nice Caldari outputs for RnD, and minmatar outpost for mining/rating and bring your alts back to Initiative space. And don't give us “there are not enough slots”, I’m sure there is enough, especialy RnD slots given that now in high sec it takes months to get one free. Sansha forsaken/forgone hubs are better then most high sec missions so I don’t know why are you wasting your time in higsec. 0.0 is where the isk is. Bring your alts home. Get rich.


This post wins the "disconnected from reality" award. Well done.


Are you saying high sec pve is more profitable then 0.0 pve? I call bull on that. Only pve in high sec that is better then 0.0 is incursion, and they require group effort. For solo pve there is nothing in higsec that compares to 0.0.

If he wasn't saying it, I am.

First of all, discounting Incursions is intellectually dishonest. It's the most valuable form of highsec income, unaffiliated players can link up with running squads easily, it's on-demand, and there's effectively no scaling limit on players doing it. The other PVE I assume you'd be talking about is lvl 4 missions.

Compare to finding complexes in 0.0. They're not on demand, the value comes from loot drops which are not predictable, and the many sites require multiple people which then SPLIT the rewards instead of scale them up per player. Anomaly ratting in 0.0 is on-demand and soloable, but the ISK/hour is merely equivalent to highsec mission running. You are correct in stating that certain lvl4's are not as profitable as the best 0.0 anoms, but likewise there are some 0.0 anoms which are not as good as lvl4 missions. Best for best, they're about tied. And unlike missions, there are a fixed number of good sites per system whereas one agent can service an infinite number of players and there are stations with multiple agents allowing players to cherry pick missions.

Most of my life I've lived outside of 0.0, but I did once control 4 0.0 outpost systems in Providence (before the anom nerf). I know the answer to the which is better 0.0/highsec question because I've seen the corp tax records. I've seen them when our corp was blitzing anomalies and when we are blitzing Incursions/missions. There is no comparison. Highsec Incursions are insanely better than the best 0.0 PVE, and missions are nearly equivalent on pure ISK. While Loyalty Points are harder to quantify, both Incursions and missions give LP with their ISK rewards and anoms do not, so the discrepancy is even greater than it seems.

This is, of course, not factoring in the increased risk of ship loss or play interruption from being in 0.0 vulnerable to attack.

I don't know if anyone has previously taken the time to explain this to you. I don't think you're stupid, I just think there's gaps in your knowledge of the game. Hopefully I've clarified the mechanics.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#411 - 2013-05-31 20:48:16 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Our many many industrial, R&D, invention, mission etc etc alts are in highsec

That's the point. We already have the industrial skills tyvm; we don't need to specifically recruit them. It's just not worth applying them in the space we own. I'm pretty sure that VANIS at least has more NPC corp empire alts than actual official corp members.
...


Good! So find yourself nice Caldari outputs for RnD, and minmatar outpost for mining/rating and bring your alts back to Initiative space. And don't give us “there are not enough slots”, I’m sure there is enough, especialy RnD slots given that now in high sec it takes months to get one free. Sansha forsaken/forgone hubs are better then most high sec missions so I don’t know why are you wasting your time in higsec. 0.0 is where the isk is. Bring your alts home. Get rich.


Yeah that's an awesome idea, I can't think why we didn't think of it sooner. We'll move our BPOs out of those nasty invulnerable stations and risk moving them through 0.0 and keep them in lovely 0.0 outposts which we could lose at any time. Pure genius.

Say, would you like a space job? I think we need someone of your caliber to be our director of money to show us how it's done.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#412 - 2013-05-31 20:51:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Why would that be so hard?


Sofia seems to think we don't take on industrialists now because we hate them. This is not true.


It's hard to argue against someone who uses stuff they invented out of thin air as evidence and sheer ignorance of the subject as a defence.

To adapt Pauli's famous comment: "She's not right. She's not even wrong".

The problem is so different to what she imagines it to be that you can't even discuss the issue with her because you have to accept fundamentally incorrect assumptions to even address her position.




"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#413 - 2013-05-31 20:53:35 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.


Aaaand, even more awesome! Lol

EDIT: I can understand why alliances and their haulers like jump bridges, jump freighters, cynos etc. But i still believe they're used in a downright inflationary way, it would be cool if there was some kind of reason or mechanic that would justify such kind of convoys even if You have access to various kinds of jumping technologies.


"Inflationary"?

Go on then, please do tell us how JBs, JFs, etc devalue currency. I'm all ears.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#414 - 2013-05-31 22:15:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Why would that be so hard?


Sofia seems to think we don't take on industrialists now because we hate them. This is not true.




Well I would not say that there's hate involved but certainly there's a kind of mindset about things. Take the going to null concept being taken as "you are going to get OMGWTFPWNGANKED so don't even try it" notion. Not true in the vast majority of cases.

It's the prevailing mindset at work that null is for PVP and highsec is for production and trade (hence Jita). It may not be entirely correct, but the belief makes it true.

(existential moment incoming)


I see the CSM guy makes a point about the need not to put BPOs in vulnerable spots. Now, anybody can make an argument for or against that in any way they can see fit, but logically, who would put them anywhere BUT an invulnerable highsec station?

Think of this this way: you can stick your hand in boiling water for only a fraction of a second and not get burned, but there is not a lot of motivation to try it. It goes both ways too. You can make the argument that an industrialist who goes to nullsec will be wanted there and make a profit, but people do end up stranded out there and/or losing everything either from changes in SOV, changes in corp beyond their control (booted, disbanded while unsubbed, etc) or doing the wrong thing. It's a pot of boiling water and we can make the argument that people won't get burned if they do it a certain way, but there is still no desire to do it.


I think CCP should just throw it to the wind and put slots galore in nullsec. I don't think it will be the end of highsec production. Nullsec entities having a surplus of industrial output will still want to sell it in high sec, and others will come there
to get what they need.

Some other means of motivating industrialists "out there" could also help. Still, nothing is going to stop some organizations from looking down on anybody who is not killing everything that moves but if industry becomes more popular in the hinterlands perhaps such organizations become extinct for economic reasons.


A good time will be had by all.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#415 - 2013-05-31 22:18:38 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

If he wasn't saying it, I am.

First of all, discounting Incursions is intellectually dishonest. It's the most valuable form of highsec income, unaffiliated players can link up with running squads easily, it's on-demand, and there's effectively no scaling limit on players doing it. The other PVE I assume you'd be talking about is lvl 4 missions.

Compare to finding complexes in 0.0. They're not on demand, the value comes from loot drops which are not predictable, and the many sites require multiple people which then SPLIT the rewards instead of scale them up per player. Anomaly ratting in 0.0 is on-demand and soloable, but the ISK/hour is merely equivalent to highsec mission running. You are correct in stating that certain lvl4's are not as profitable as the best 0.0 anoms, but likewise there are some 0.0 anoms which are not as good as lvl4 missions. Best for best, they're about tied. And unlike missions, there are a fixed number of good sites per system whereas one agent can service an infinite number of players and there are stations with multiple agents allowing players to cherry pick missions.

Most of my life I've lived outside of 0.0, but I did once control 4 0.0 outpost systems in Providence (before the anom nerf). I know the answer to the which is better 0.0/highsec question because I've seen the corp tax records. I've seen them when our corp was blitzing anomalies and when we are blitzing Incursions/missions. There is no comparison. Highsec Incursions are insanely better than the best 0.0 PVE, and missions are nearly equivalent on pure ISK. While Loyalty Points are harder to quantify, both Incursions and missions give LP with their ISK rewards and anoms do not, so the discrepancy is even greater than it seems.

This is, of course, not factoring in the increased risk of ship loss or play interruption from being in 0.0 vulnerable to attack.

I don't know if anyone has previously taken the time to explain this to you. I don't think you're stupid, I just think there's gaps in your knowledge of the game. Hopefully I've clarified the mechanics.


You are right about hig sec incursion, I was unjustifiably dismissive. If anyone want to complain about them giving better income then 0.0 I will keep quiet.

However my first hand experience with Snasha anoms, especially forsaken hubs, is that they are significantly superior to average lvl4 mission. In my shitfit t1 BSI get about 50% isk/h more on average in forsaken hubs then doing lvl 4 missions. That accounts for bounty, salvage and LP. Now it could be I just sucked at lvl 4 missions, but I myself have no intention of going back to high sec to do lvl 4 as long I have access to Provi, It is not worth my time. And this is not even accounting possibility of doing anoms in carriers. CCP itself stated doing anoms in carriers are biggest ISK printing machine in EVE ,and are easily turn around 100M/h or more. It goes without saying this is impossible with lvl 4 missions. Only problem with anoms is overcrowded systems with multiple people wanting to run them. If that is the case I coincide that lvl 4 missions could actually turn up better isk/time efficiency.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#416 - 2013-05-31 22:22:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Why would that be so hard?


Sofia seems to think we don't take on industrialists now because we hate them. This is not true.


It's hard to argue against someone who uses stuff they invented out of thin air as evidence and sheer ignorance of the subject as a defence.

To adapt Pauli's famous comment: "She's not right. She's not even wrong".

The problem is so different to what she imagines it to be that you can't even discuss the issue with her because you have to accept fundamentally incorrect assumptions to even address her position.



You can go ad hominem all you want but this will not change the fact that improving number of 0.0 industrial slots alone will result in no significant increase of 0.0 industry. There are other obstacles to 0.0 industry preventing those slots to be fully used, and they will not go away regardless of how much some people want to ignore them.

Luckily who of us is right is easily empirically verified. This expansion CCP will significantly increase number of available 0.0. slots in stations, and I’m sure that with it they will have metrics established to measure success of this change. One of those should be number of slots used in 0.0 outposts. So Malcanis if before next expansion we get blog or just a dev statement indicating more then single percentage digit increase in actual 0.0 slot usage I will issue official statement of apology to you for challenging your authority as biggest forum warrior and goon whisperer. I will even not make a snide statement about you being too risk averse to bring BPO to 0.0P

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2013-05-31 22:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
Let me get this right.



By simply changing Cynos to have a minimum range ( 50 - 250km) from the station, before they can be lit and Cyno jam low-sec will cause Null sec to crumble to dust and every alliance member to quit eve, out right.


Absolutely None of the 1000's of players in high sec would be willing to take there places?


Now who's mad hatter insane sounding?



Your honestly wanting me to believe that with least amount of added risk to your high sec supply lines you will just give up and quit?



You know what i think if this change happened you would suck it up and adapt to it.


But even if i'm wrong, and you will leave because of it, there's others to replace you.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#418 - 2013-05-31 23:16:50 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Let me get this right.



By simply changing Cynos to have a minimum range ( 50 - 250km) from the station, before they can be lit and Cyno jam low-sec will cause Null sec to crumble to dust and every alliance member to quit eve, out right.


Absolutely None of the 1000's of players in high sec would be willing to take there places?


Now who's mad hatter insane sounding?



Your honestly wanting me to believe that with least amount of added risk to your high sec supply lines you will just give up and quit?



You know what i think if this change happened you would suck it up and adapt to it.


But even if i'm wrong, and you will leave because of it, there's others to replace you.

QFT. Adapt or GTFO.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#419 - 2013-06-01 00:07:43 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Let me get this right.



By simply changing Cynos to have a minimum range ( 50 - 250km) from the station, before they can be lit and Cyno jam low-sec will cause Null sec to crumble to dust and every alliance member to quit eve, out right.


Absolutely None of the 1000's of players in high sec would be willing to take there places?


Now who's mad hatter insane sounding?



Your honestly wanting me to believe that with least amount of added risk to your high sec supply lines you will just give up and quit?



You know what i think if this change happened you would suck it up and adapt to it.


But even if i'm wrong, and you will leave because of it, there's others to replace you.

Lets let CCP Greyscale answer that.
CCP Greyscale wrote:
•Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
James 420
EVE Corporation 98188875
#420 - 2013-06-01 00:32:15 UTC
CCP will never nerf cynos, nullbabies would cry too much (even tho they only represent like 20% of the eve total population and not the most interesting one :blob:).
You can't attack our supply lines, null is literally the safest space in eve for carebears and after this expansion will become even more profitable?
Deal with it Cool

Proud enforcer of 420 BLAZE IT