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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2013-05-30 14:35:52 UTC
Adeh Gamalar wrote:


I asked you to explain the discrepancy between building from a POS and building from a station slot in null. You can't add the cost of mining and logistics in null just to building from a POS. Those will be exactly the same for building from a station.

As to the rest, yes, there are some minor additional costs in terms of time and convenience but you are massively overstating them. Supercaps are built at POSes and the assembly arrays are certainly not moved with the kind of frequency you imply would be necessary. I think you also massively underestimate how much product a single POS can churn out when running at full efficiency. As I said in an earlier post, a single large tower can churn out something in excess of 600 battleships a month. When you get down to modules, weapons and rigs the numbers are simply enormous. The amount of equipment that can be turned by, say, forty or so towers set up in a couple of fortified systems is huge. And, of course, the costs associated with any individual tower will be divided across everything it produces each month.

Really, I don't see 2x as being anywhere near credible.


Hi I can explain this to you. Building from a POS is similar to shaving your face with a blunt shard of glass, incredibly painful and incredibly more expensive (medical bills) than doing it in a station, or in other words using a regular razor. To build in a POS you have to set it up, fuel it, defend it, and supply it with the build materials. That doesn't sound like much but, it really is. Setting up a POS can take hours. People can swoop in and murder your tower quickly with a small fleet of dreads so defending it can be miserable. Fueling it causes people to burn out as it is so tedious and boring we end up paying people to do it for us, GSOL is awesome. Supplying build materials is the most terrible part as sometimes it takes multiple freighter trips in non-highsec, that means no autopilot, you must be at the keyboard and there is a real chance of you getting killed. On top of that you have to manage the outputs which if not done correctly you lose your product. Whereas in a station you just plop it all in and use a slot. Supercaps are built in POS because they cannot be built in stations; if they could be built in stations then DBRB would have to put away his coat hangars.

So because I don't expect you to understand or read any of that, the isk:effort:tedium:reward ratio is horribly horribly skewed towards building in stations for POS to be a viable alternative.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#262 - 2013-05-30 14:38:59 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:


The only way you lose a JF is by being a complete moron, and any one that dose logistics for any group is far from it.

There for to safe.


You light your cyno and the JF jumps in. Because you've used your usual spot on the usual station, there's a cloaked stealthbomber waiting between you and the station. He lights his cyno the instant you jump in, and a dreadnaught plus a couple of tackle ships jump in and you get bumped out of docking range by the suddenly appearing dread. You don't have enough cap to jump out and you're quickly pointed. The dreadnaught melts you in a few seconds.

The only counter is to never jump into a system with any hostiles in. If you follow this rule, your route is trivially interdictable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#263 - 2013-05-30 14:43:57 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Right now importing is virtually risk free


Then please explain all those dead Jump Freighters. You do realise that even if the JF pilot is in a NPC corp, that he's actually a 0.0 alt, right?

I'm not saying there is zero risk, but just virtually zero risk. I think it would be difficult to be killed if you do everything correctly, so those pilots achieved quite a feat by managing to die. I would be interested in the circumstances of their deaths.


OK so a jump freighter can't cyno directly into hi-sec. It has to jump into a lo-sec system and then use gates to get to Jita (or whichever other trade hub). After loading up at the trade hub, it might have to take a few hi-sec gates to get within cyno range of the lo-sec midpoint. From there it can jump into 0. Or depending on the route, it may be able to cyno directly from Jita.

If the JF pilot is in a player corp, then they can obviously be wardecced, and you'd be appalled at how many JFs empire wardec corps harvest.

Even if the pilot isn't in a player corp, JFs can still be suicide ganked relatively easily, and this is also surprisingly common.

And remember: this is a 6.5 billion ISK hull, not to mention the value of the cargo, with no slots and no defences other than its hitpoints. It's slow and clumsy. If they were routinely killable in the way that, say, a 3 million ISK Iteron V is, then they'd be useless.

If you have for example a 10% chance of losing your JF (let's say it's holding 3.5B worth of cargo, bringing the total loss to 10 billion ISK), then that makes the average cost of a trip to empire a billion ISK each way, plus whatever the fuel is. Obviously you're going to make pretty damb sure that your risk is a lot less than 10%. People don't fly JFs like they're T1 cruisers, nor is it a problem that they don't.

In short: what makes you think they're "too safe". How safe would be "just right"?


To me that Is still far to safe. We both know the only real way to kill them is to suicide gank in high sec, which is rarely worth it if the freighter pilot is smart and doesn't load up on PLEX's or some other such item which has no business being transported in a freighter. They are completely immune when travelling through null sec and low if the freighter pilots uses friendly pos bubbles.


OK give me a number. What chance of losing a JF on a run to Jita "feels" right to you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#264 - 2013-05-30 14:49:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


I ran some numbers from Akita T's spreadsheet on how much it would cost to buy enough Amarr outposts to replicate the production capacity of hisec: assuming 30 billion ISK for an outpost, a cyno jammer POS, TCU and Hub, and 1 billion ISK per month for the sov fees and POS fuel: 40 trillion ISK, plus 1.4 trillion per month. And that's just for the production slots.

That magnitude of subsidy is, as others in this thread have noted, effectively impossible to compete with.


Bah, you and your "numbers" and your "facts" and city slicker "knowledge". We dun like yer kind round here boy.

*Jenn plays "Deliverance" style banjo music*
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2013-05-30 14:50:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:


The only way you lose a JF is by being a complete moron, and any one that dose logistics for any group is far from it.

There for to safe.


You light your cyno and the JF jumps in. Because you've used your usual spot on the usual station, there's a cloaked stealthbomber waiting between you and the station. He lights his cyno the instant you jump in, and a dreadnaught plus a couple of tackle ships jump in and you get bumped out of docking range by the suddenly appearing dread. You don't have enough cap to jump out and you're quickly pointed. The dreadnaught melts you in a few seconds.

The only counter is to never jump into a system with any hostiles in. If you follow this rule, your route is trivially interdictable.




There's a standing list for reason, if you don't know who's going to try and kill you your already bad.

Red in local not going, they cant be there at all times, and it only takes 2 to 4 minutes for my run to be done, depending up on how i have planned the route as jump fuel is dirt cheap.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#266 - 2013-05-30 14:53:56 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.


Well if you want to punish us by nerfing our outposts to only having the 68050 build slots that hi-sec enjoys, make them invulnerable like hi-sec, make the good refineries also have plenty of slots like hi-sec, have unlimited office slots like hisec, make the supply of high-bulk low-end minerals in 0.0 sufficient to build from like hi-sec, make 0.0 ore anoms worth as much as hi-sec minerals, then I guess we'll be as hardworking as the hi-sec industrialist community too.


Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....


What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec?


Assuming cynos and bridges were nerfed, the benefit would be that you wouldn't have to make freighter runs between null and hisec. You make the stuff there, you use the stuff there.

I'd be in favour of null being able to improve facilities to compete with hisec, but the costs should be absolutely massive, both in terms of time, ISK and effort. Hisec has the backing of long established empires, they can afford to build facilities almost as they please. But null alliances aren't really empires in the same way, they're kind've newcomers on the scene. I'd love it if they could work their way up to that level, but it can't be something that an alliance just sinks an insignificant amount of ISK into and then bingo, they can compete with say, the Amarr Empire. The effort it takes should reflect that infrastructure projects on that kind of scale can only really be done when people are invested in a common cause and are bonded by years of a common culture and vision for the future. It can't be a case of "oh, cool, I sold those 5 Typhoons, I'm going to use that ISK to pay for 300 more manufacturing slots and a new 99.9% efficient refinery".



So in short, you think it's OK for hi-sec manufacturing to be massively advantaged for lore/fluff reasons?

I mean even with the lore reason you cite, yes the Empires built those stations; that doesn't mean that they're eager to let pod pilots use them essentially for free. (IIRC it costs about 2000 ISK to make a 230 million ISK Maelstrom, which is such a small fee that it's effectively free)

What if they suddenly decide that they need to recoup that investment, because after all, there is a war on, and raise slot use prices to reflect the market value of the facility? OK so now you have to pay 23 million ISK to use an NPC station to make a Maelstrom. How about that? 10% seems like a pretty reasonable cut for that convenience and safety, and after all, you do have the option of using a POS manufacturing array instead.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2013-05-30 14:54:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


OK give me a number. What chance of losing a JF on a run to Jita "feels" right to you?



Is there a magic number for JUST RIGHT in dead titans? or fleets welped? or miners ganked?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#268 - 2013-05-30 14:55:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I ran some numbers from Akita T's spreadsheet on how much it would cost to buy enough Amarr outposts to replicate the production capacity of hisec: assuming 30 billion ISK for an outpost, a cyno jammer POS, TCU and Hub, and 1 billion ISK per month for the sov fees and POS fuel: 40 trillion ISK, plus 1.4 trillion per month. And that's just for the production slots.

That magnitude of subsidy is, as others in this thread have noted, effectively impossible to compete with.


Bah, you and your "numbers" and your "facts" and city slicker "knowledge". We dun like yer kind round here boy.

*Jenn plays "Deliverance" style banjo music*


If only we 0.0ers weren't so lazy, we could get a 40 trillion ISK subsidy :(

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#269 - 2013-05-30 14:55:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Adeh Gamalar wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about now. Who said anything about forcing 0.0 players to live in empire? What I said was that null should have a fully self-sufficient economy and that it should not be an easy option to displace any resource in null with one from empire space (and vice versa). I thought nullsec self-sufficiency was what you wanted. If so, why would you want an easy link to highsec, since if it is practicable and easy to bring any resource in from high there will be no point in acquiring that resource in null.

Exactly, part of the reason why local industrialism has failed in null sec is due to the fact that it is almost zero risk and low cost to import straight from high sec. Combine that with the fact that it is very inefficient with a lack of low end minerals in null sec to produce locally then it is obvious that no one produces in null.

If they simply buff null industry without looking at the ease of importing then we will only see a half solution which probably wont achieve the desired goal. It will still be more efficient to rat or run anoms or other PVE activities and then simply import/export to high sec unless there is some risk added to importing.


What's your "desired goal" exactly?

Look, there are two major obstacles to 0.0 industry

(1) Lack of capacity. We've covered this and I think that everyone's pretty much on the same page here. Null needs a shedload more slots because outposts are pathetic.

(2) Higher TCP (Total cost of production). Hi-sec industry gets so many effective subsidies that even with the improvement in capacity, 0.0 industry is still heavily disadvantaged in efficiency.

Now there are some things that we can do to help improve 0.0 efficiency, like for instance make Amarr outposts produce more quickly (effectively give them a PE bonus), so that a given player in 0.0 can produce more than he would be able to in hi-sec. But the unpleasant fact is that the sheer weight of subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing gets may have to be balanced with eg: an increase in station fees or some other cost balancing effect. This is made even more unpleasant, because hi-sec people are often unaware of the extra costs that 0.0 players pay - for instance sov bills are a lot of ISK. Goonswarm Federation pays a couple of hundred billion ISK per month on those bills, for instance.

It's basically impossible to compete with people who get free invulnerable stations that are also virtually free to use when you don't get those things.

I ran some numbers from Akita T's spreadsheet on how much it would cost to buy enough Amarr outposts to replicate the production capacity of hisec: assuming 30 billion ISK for an outpost, a cyno jammer POS, TCU and Hub, and 1 billion ISK per month for the sov fees and POS fuel: 40 trillion ISK, plus 1.4 trillion per month. And that's just for the production slots.

That magnitude of subsidy is, as others in this thread have noted, effectively impossible to compete with.

My feeling is that null sec needs a massive buff in terms of the resource availability and quality. When I did some numbers it was simply a complete waste of time to do any industrial resource gathering activities. It was only slightly more profitable than high sec and that wasn't taking into account all the extra risk, time wasted gathering intel and preparing, and the fact that most of the extra income came because of being able to use a 3 billion isk rorqual giving a boost. It was massively more efficient to rat of run plexes and just import everything from high sec.

That is just one aspect though, as you say there are many more aspects with regards to the null sec infrastructure in general from producing. I simply run out of a pirate NPC station and even then it is still better to import from high sec simply due to the quality of the resources.

As for the desired goal, as the OP says, all the supply lines should be open to attack. Right now resource gathering in null sec as a method is going to be vunrable to attack. Not sure if you watched the twitch video yesterday but CCP indicated bomber pilots would be having a field day disrupting the new valuable null sec resource points. But the import/export method is still going to be almost completely invunrable, one person can do it right now alone. The only time they are vunrable is in high sec but that risk can be easily mitigated. So the other desired goal would be to make that aspect of gameplay more interesting by allowing it to be disrupted by dedicated enemy pilots, and at the same time bring the balance of producing locally in null sec on a more even footing so there is an actual choice.

As I said I operate from a NPC null station where a lot of the infrastructure issues you are rightfully trying to improve do not affect me, and it still isn't going to be worth producing anything locally in my eyes. I'm going to wait and see if this new resource shake up by CCP makes any difference. But with the relative ease of simply importing and exporting which I can do myself, I can't see it changing unless the import/export method is looked at.

The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#270 - 2013-05-30 14:56:19 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


OK give me a number. What chance of losing a JF on a run to Jita "feels" right to you?



Is there a magic number for JUST RIGHT in dead titans? or fleets welped? or miners ganked?


Well I don't know mate, I'm not the one complaining that JFs (or Titans) are too safe. I think it's a reasonable question to ask "well OK what's just right then".

1%?

10%?

50%?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2013-05-30 14:59:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:



So in short, you think it's OK for hi-sec manufacturing to be massively advantaged for lore/fluff reasons?

I mean even with the lore reason you cite, yes the Empires built those stations; that doesn't mean that they're eager to let pod pilots use them essentially for free. (IIRC it costs about 2000 ISK to make a 230 million ISK Maelstrom, which is such a small fee that it's effectively free)

What if they suddenly decide that they need to recoup that investment, because after all, there is a war on, and raise slot use prices to reflect the market value of the facility? OK so now you have to pay 23 million ISK to use an NPC station to make a Maelstrom. How about that? 10% seems like a pretty reasonable cut for that convenience and safety, and after all, you do have the option of using a POS manufacturing array instead.





Just so you know, i started a thread many months ago about nurfing high-secs limitless ability to do production, but that was along side CCPs POS change's so, blame CCP, a lot of your concerns can be fixed by a POS re-wright being on the CSM why don't you go get them to do that?


Go be the guy that gets CCP TO FIX POS's and be are hero.
Jim McMorris
McMorris Co.
#272 - 2013-05-30 15:00:30 UTC
Let's just remove all capital ships.

[b]Chief Executive Officer McMorris Co. EVE's Only Legitimate ISK Doubling Corporation[/b]
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#273 - 2013-05-30 15:02:29 UTC
Tbh its an issue of cynos as a whole. I hate jump freighters as a concept and feel like cynos and bridges should have mass limitations.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2013-05-30 15:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stonecrusher Mortlock
Jim McMorris wrote:
Let's just remove all capital ships.



no




Garresh wrote:
Tbh its an issue of cynos as a whole. I hate jump freighters as a concept and feel like cynos and bridges should have mass limitations.





yes, even tho this would basically remove my main income stream im fine with this.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#275 - 2013-05-30 15:06:06 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#276 - 2013-05-30 15:07:09 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:



So in short, you think it's OK for hi-sec manufacturing to be massively advantaged for lore/fluff reasons?

I mean even with the lore reason you cite, yes the Empires built those stations; that doesn't mean that they're eager to let pod pilots use them essentially for free. (IIRC it costs about 2000 ISK to make a 230 million ISK Maelstrom, which is such a small fee that it's effectively free)

What if they suddenly decide that they need to recoup that investment, because after all, there is a war on, and raise slot use prices to reflect the market value of the facility? OK so now you have to pay 23 million ISK to use an NPC station to make a Maelstrom. How about that? 10% seems like a pretty reasonable cut for that convenience and safety, and after all, you do have the option of using a POS manufacturing array instead.





Just so you know, i started a thread many months ago about nurfing high-secs limitless ability to do production, but that was along side CCPs POS change's so, blame CCP, a lot of your concerns can be fixed by a POS re-wright being on the CSM why don't you go get them to do that?


Go be the guy that gets CCP TO FIX POS's and be are hero.


I would dearly love to be that guy. However, it's been made pretty clear that no one on CSM8 is going to be.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#277 - 2013-05-30 15:13:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

The thing is cyno mechanics in general need to be looked at. Not just with regards to logistics, but PvP in general. You can't cyno into a pos bubble but you can cyno just outside and slow boat in, or even easier just dock straight into a station. Lets see if this resource rebalance fixes the issue though, it is a step in the right direction for certain. I would like to see null sec and high sec a bit more cut off from one another though, however that is achieved, I think it would have good results as long as all the resource and industrial issues in null sec are significantly buffed first.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#278 - 2013-05-30 15:17:45 UTC
Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
Take moon goo for example, the moon goo industry was dominated by large power blocs so good moons were not accessible to anybody other than another tech owning power bloc.


Moon goo is a perfect case-in-point. If those big bloc players had to hump that moon goo 47 jumps to get it to Jita to sell, they wouldn't have a monopoly on it. Every wannabe piwate along their route would want to take a piece of their action, and would probably try. Any smart industrialist or marketeer could also "intercept" that freight with a buy order somewhere along the route that wasn't too far off the sell price in Jita. All that would significantly devalue said moon goo and reduce the power of the blue donut.

Fairy freighters eliminate all that.
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#279 - 2013-05-30 15:18:08 UTC
Don't allow high sec jump landings, make them jump to low then run on normal engines through high sec

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#280 - 2013-05-30 15:19:03 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

The thing is cyno mechanics in general need to be looked at. Not just with regards to logistics, but PvP in general. You can't cyno into a pos bubble but you can cyno just outside and slow boat in, or even easier just dock straight into a station. Lets see if this resource rebalance fixes the issue though, it is a step in the right direction for certain. I would like to see null sec and high sec a bit more cut off from one another though, however that is achieved, I think it would have good results as long as all the resource and industrial issues in null sec are significantly buffed first.


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016