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Why do people think a remap of skill points is a bad idea?

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-05-28 16:12:48 UTC
I keep seeing a lot of comments that are very negative but not much explanation as to why.

I started EvE in 2003 and since then I have spent a lot of money and time on EvE. I started this character as Minnie but I liked Caldari n Gallant ships and invested a lot of skill points into both blasters and missiles. My primary specialisation was in Raven n torpedoes for PvP but one day CCP decided torpedoes should be complete garbage. I now have a lot of skills, tens of millions in a ship and weapons system I haven't used in years and wont be using in the future.

I dont support remaps for mistakes although I really couldn't give a crap about other peoples skill pools but that many skill points wasted due to a radical change like the missile rebalance definitely in my mind would be one good reason to allow remaps.

Since then there have been so many similar nerfs and changes I cant see any reasonable objection that could be made. Which probably explains why there is no explanation for all the objections.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Cap James Tkirk
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2013-05-28 17:39:11 UTC
you get a remap once a year........

so whats the issue?
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#3 - 2013-05-28 17:47:46 UTC
She's pining for a remap of SKILL POINTS not ATTRIBUTES.

OP, you'll get your answer easily, just use the search function.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
GreenSeed
#4 - 2013-05-28 18:03:40 UTC
i wouldn't mind remaps if they entailed a loss of a % of the SP originally invested.

why? well, because i cant wait until they rebuff missiles and people come crying to the forums about their lost sp.

and the moral of the story will be, "beware of what you wish for".
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#5 - 2013-05-28 18:15:09 UTC
Why it's a bad idea:

You get SP gained based on attributes.

So you train for your remap and get max SP.

If you let people move them around they got max sp for off remap skills.

This ruins the entire attribute system as you'd only need 2 plus 5's implants and one max remap.
Train forever in the same group and just move the sp around when you can.

SP per hour has just gone up and up over the years.
More then enough help in getting people the skills they want/need has been given.

It's already sad enough that race differences to attributes have been removed.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2013-05-28 18:21:13 UTC

Why Skillpoint Remaps are generally viewed as a negative thing:

A.) It allows you to game the SP system: I train a year of perception/willpower skills... once a year redistribute those skillpoints to off-attribute skills, essentially allowing me to train at optimal pace, always. New players won't have this luxury, but older players certainly will!

B.) If I can redistribute 5-10m sp, I can instantly become a professional miner, or industrialist, or carrier pilot, or ... It doesn't take a lot of skillpoints before people can insta-train into a FOTM ship and/or career... and allowing people to instatrain into FOTM is generally a BAD THING.

C.) You already got the benefits from those skills, why should you get to redistribute them? You started off as a Raven Pilot, and enjoyed it long enough to accrue 10m SP relevant to PvEing with it (or whatever). So you already used them, and benefited from them, regardless if you use them now. That's like majoring in Chemistry in College, but since you now are a business mogul you want to re-write your degree to say Business Administration.

D.) People rarely make mistakes when training their skills. Certainly not enough to justify shifing millions of SP! Unlike attributes, which simply determine the rate of learning (and used to be permenantly set at character creation when people were noobs and didn't know jack about the game), SP is continually trained.

E.) Nothing stops you from exploring a new area of the game other than training into it, and why should you get instant access to it at top-level skills just because you have an old character? How is this fair to the new guy?

Also:

Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2013-05-28 18:55:27 UTC
Once again I will state my opinion, which will get flamed as always.

Plex for Skill Removal

CCP charges you a Plex for removing unwanted skills.

a. You DO NOT get reimbursed for skill points
b. You DO NOT get reimbursed for skill books
c. You TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for doing this & cannot be undone.

Yes, it is an OCD thing or vanity wanting a clean combat skill sheet free from that Mining Level 3 skill. Or injecting PI skills only after a couple months wishing you never did & want them gone.

P.S. People will complain about account getting hacked & skill points removed. IF account is hacked CCP can reverse anything.

Just another way for CCP to use Plex which this would get more use than Plex for Re-sculp.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-05-28 20:05:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A series of very well thought out points.

Pretty much this.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#9 - 2013-05-29 01:04:26 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:

Plex for Skill Removal


Except for the issues of spending Dev time on something that virtually nobody will use (and would likely result in flurries of petitions from people who didn't read the 10-20 warning labels that explained how they were screwing themselves), I don't really see a fundamental design problem with this.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-05-29 02:14:12 UTC
Because EVE is a game of consequences.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-29 06:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryuu Shi
Ha...no. Character Bazaar that way ArrowAurum making you the mercenary of tomorrow, today!

_**Noob **_isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.

  • Sun Tzu
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#12 - 2013-05-29 06:35:44 UTC
A full skill remap, is anti Eve, but I personally think getting an occasional limited remap would be a good thing. It would help people who misread the poorly worded skill descriptions, started into a ship line learned it sucked/was just nerfed, took a skill they thought would help but never can really use or CCP changed the rules on them (again).

My suggestion would be one free to new alts, then one per year. Up to 500k sp remapped or one skill which ever is less.

This would be helpful for the frustrated small timer who feels overwhlemed, but would be generally not exploitable to any great extent.
Danni stark
#13 - 2013-05-29 09:49:23 UTC
sp reallocation for plex exists, it's the character bazzar.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-05-29 12:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why Skillpoint Remaps are generally viewed as a negative thing:

A.) It allows you to game the SP system: I train a year of perception/willpower skills... once a year redistribute those skillpoints to off-attribute skills, essentially allowing me to train at optimal pace, always. New players won't have this luxury, but older players certainly will!

B.) If I can redistribute 5-10m sp, I can instantly become a professional miner, or industrialist, or carrier pilot, or ... It doesn't take a lot of skillpoints before people can insta-train into a FOTM ship and/or career... and allowing people to instatrain into FOTM is generally a BAD THING.

C.) You already got the benefits from those skills, why should you get to redistribute them? You started off as a Raven Pilot, and enjoyed it long enough to accrue 10m SP relevant to PvEing with it (or whatever). So you already used them, and benefited from them, regardless if you use them now. That's like majoring in Chemistry in College, but since you now are a business mogul you want to re-write your degree to say Business Administration.

D.) People rarely make mistakes when training their skills. Certainly not enough to justify shifing millions of SP! Unlike attributes, which simply determine the rate of learning (and used to be permenantly set at character creation when people were noobs and didn't know jack about the game), SP is continually trained.

E.) Nothing stops you from exploring a new area of the game other than training into it, and why should you get instant access to it at top-level skills just because you have an old character? How is this fair to the new guy?

Also:

Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

Most of these are easily fixed with a little bit of intelligence. Take your first point. If SP were refunded on a base character stats basis that wouldn't be an issue. You would lose a good deal of points but its better than having 10 million + SP in a weapons system that you planned for, paid for and set goals for then had those points made useless and the goals invalidated through unforeseeable game changes.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#15 - 2013-05-29 14:26:54 UTC
You wanted a Torp Raven and you trained for it. As long as Torps and Ravens are in the game, you will be able to fly a good one.

Those are not 'wasted skills', just because you decided you want to move on.

My only current thought is:
Did you have 5 friends that quit EVE because of this?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#16 - 2013-05-29 17:56:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why Skillpoint Remaps are generally viewed as a negative thing:

A.) It allows you to game the SP system: I train a year of perception/willpower skills... once a year redistribute those skillpoints to off-attribute skills, essentially allowing me to train at optimal pace, always. New players won't have this luxury, but older players certainly will!

B.) If I can redistribute 5-10m sp, I can instantly become a professional miner, or industrialist, or carrier pilot, or ... It doesn't take a lot of skillpoints before people can insta-train into a FOTM ship and/or career... and allowing people to instatrain into FOTM is generally a BAD THING.

C.) You already got the benefits from those skills, why should you get to redistribute them? You started off as a Raven Pilot, and enjoyed it long enough to accrue 10m SP relevant to PvEing with it (or whatever). So you already used them, and benefited from them, regardless if you use them now. That's like majoring in Chemistry in College, but since you now are a business mogul you want to re-write your degree to say Business Administration.

D.) People rarely make mistakes when training their skills. Certainly not enough to justify shifing millions of SP! Unlike attributes, which simply determine the rate of learning (and used to be permenantly set at character creation when people were noobs and didn't know jack about the game), SP is continually trained.

E.) Nothing stops you from exploring a new area of the game other than training into it, and why should you get instant access to it at top-level skills just because you have an old character? How is this fair to the new guy?

Also:

Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

Most of these are easily fixed with a little bit of intelligence. Take your first point. If SP were refunded on a base character stats basis that wouldn't be an issue. You would lose a good deal of points but its better than having 10 million + SP in a weapons system that you planned for, paid for and set goals for then had those points made useless and the goals invalidated through unforeseeable game changes.


Gaming the system, and FOTM switching could be mitigated by limitations on the SP refunding...

However, you don't "fix" the double dipping essence, which is the goal of SP redistribution. Pro-SP redistribution folks generally want to move their SP from something they did to something they do (or will do). There is no need for this, as they can still train to do that future thing, just not instantly!

Furthermore, none of the "fixes" will alleviate the significant advantage this gives older players. A new player doesn't have the skill base to quickly retrain into a new area of the game. Balance is much better served by making both the older player and the new player both have to endure the growing pains of skill training when exploring a "new" area of game play.
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#17 - 2013-05-30 15:00:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why Skillpoint Remaps are generally viewed as a negative thing:

A.) It allows you to game the SP system: I train a year of perception/willpower skills... once a year redistribute those skillpoints to off-attribute skills, essentially allowing me to train at optimal pace, always. New players won't have this luxury, but older players certainly will!

B.) If I can redistribute 5-10m sp, I can instantly become a professional miner, or industrialist, or carrier pilot, or ... It doesn't take a lot of skillpoints before people can insta-train into a FOTM ship and/or career... and allowing people to instatrain into FOTM is generally a BAD THING.

C.) You already got the benefits from those skills, why should you get to redistribute them? You started off as a Raven Pilot, and enjoyed it long enough to accrue 10m SP relevant to PvEing with it (or whatever). So you already used them, and benefited from them, regardless if you use them now. That's like majoring in Chemistry in College, but since you now are a business mogul you want to re-write your degree to say Business Administration.

D.) People rarely make mistakes when training their skills. Certainly not enough to justify shifing millions of SP! Unlike attributes, which simply determine the rate of learning (and used to be permenantly set at character creation when people were noobs and didn't know jack about the game), SP is continually trained.

E.) Nothing stops you from exploring a new area of the game other than training into it, and why should you get instant access to it at top-level skills just because you have an old character? How is this fair to the new guy?

Also:

Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


Given the presence of the Character Bazar and that with enough ISK/PLEX/$ you can buy characters with the roughly the desired skill set, most of these arguments don't hold. If you're serious about these point anyway you should be advocating the removal of the Character Bazar/transfer. That would however **** off players building characters for business.

With a choice between reallocating Skill points on my own char vs. replacing a char with a different one bought on the bazar, I would prefer the first option because that way I can retain most of "me" (identity, reputation, .....)
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-05-30 15:05:56 UTC
Nagnor wrote:
With a choice between reallocating Skill points on my own char vs. replacing a char with a different one bought on the bazar, I would prefer the first option because that way I can retain most of "me" (identity, reputation, .....)

So you are saying that you dislike having to make choices. In that case I think you may be playing the wrong game.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-05-30 15:39:00 UTC
Nagnor wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why Skillpoint Remaps are generally viewed as a negative thing:

A.) It allows you to game the SP system: I train a year of perception/willpower skills... once a year redistribute those skillpoints to off-attribute skills, essentially allowing me to train at optimal pace, always. New players won't have this luxury, but older players certainly will!

B.) If I can redistribute 5-10m sp, I can instantly become a professional miner, or industrialist, or carrier pilot, or ... It doesn't take a lot of skillpoints before people can insta-train into a FOTM ship and/or career... and allowing people to instatrain into FOTM is generally a BAD THING.

C.) You already got the benefits from those skills, why should you get to redistribute them? You started off as a Raven Pilot, and enjoyed it long enough to accrue 10m SP relevant to PvEing with it (or whatever). So you already used them, and benefited from them, regardless if you use them now. That's like majoring in Chemistry in College, but since you now are a business mogul you want to re-write your degree to say Business Administration.

D.) People rarely make mistakes when training their skills. Certainly not enough to justify shifing millions of SP! Unlike attributes, which simply determine the rate of learning (and used to be permenantly set at character creation when people were noobs and didn't know jack about the game), SP is continually trained.

E.) Nothing stops you from exploring a new area of the game other than training into it, and why should you get instant access to it at top-level skills just because you have an old character? How is this fair to the new guy?

Also:

Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


Given the presence of the Character Bazar and that with enough ISK/PLEX/$ you can buy characters with the roughly the desired skill set, most of these arguments don't hold. If you're serious about these point anyway you should be advocating the removal of the Character Bazar/transfer. That would however **** off players building characters for business.

With a choice between reallocating Skill points on my own char vs. replacing a char with a different one bought on the bazar, I would prefer the first option because that way I can retain most of "me" (identity, reputation, .....)

When you want to be able to do something new in EVE, there always needs to be some amount of time spent on skill training for those new things. That's the rule. Transferring characters don't contradict this rule but SP remapping does.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#20 - 2013-05-30 16:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Texty wrote:
Nagnor wrote:


Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.


Given the presence of the Character Bazar and that with enough ISK/PLEX/$ you can buy characters with the roughly the desired skill set, most of these arguments don't hold. If you're serious about these point anyway you should be advocating the removal of the Character Bazar/transfer. That would however **** off players building characters for business.

With a choice between reallocating Skill points on my own char vs. replacing a char with a different one bought on the bazar, I would prefer the first option because that way I can retain most of "me" (identity, reputation, .....)

When you want to be able to do something new in EVE, there always needs to be some amount of time spent on skill training for those new things. That's the rule. Transferring characters don't contradict this rule but SP remapping does.
This.

The character bazaar doesn't alter anything of what he said. Each and every character bought there, comes with consequences as standard. You're not bypassing the normal workings of building a character, simply the time it takes to do so.

SP remapping automatically become about SP amount and boosts us older players. Therefore it breaks a good system, for no good reason.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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