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C5 escalations

Author
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#1 - 2013-05-28 15:21:04 UTC
First to say, I've read Miton's guide on cap escalations (including the single carrier + BS part), but I would like to use 2 carriers and a 3-4 BS and warp everything in at the same time.
Would two chimeras and a some scorpion navy issues be able to take down a C5 site with everything on site from the get-go?
Thinking of getting a pulsar in order to boost tanks, would the battleships be able to tackle the alpha of about those two escalations?
The carriers will be non-triage, but fitted with 3 Capital RR each and 2 Capital Cap Transfer.
The cap neuting might be a problem on the BSs, but having one transfer from the carrier help allivate that problem? Would like to use active tanking on the scorps to help them out live the onslaught.
All in all, would 200k tanks with around 10k shield rep and a 240 cap/sec surplus make the BSs do what they're out to do?
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-05-28 15:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnaw LF
1c3crysta1 wrote:
First to say, I've read Miton's guide on cap escalations (including the single carrier + BS part), but I would like to use 2 carriers and a 3-4 BS and warp everything in at the same time.
Would two chimeras and a some scorpion navy issues be able to take down a C5 site with everything on site from the get-go?
Thinking of getting a pulsar in order to boost tanks, would the battleships be able to tackle the alpha of about those two escalations?
The carriers will be non-triage, but fitted with 3 Capital RR each and 2 Capital Cap Transfer.
The cap neuting might be a problem on the BSs, but having one transfer from the carrier help allivate that problem? Would like to use active tanking on the scorps to help them out live the onslaught.
All in all, would 200k tanks with around 10k shield rep and a 240 cap/sec surplus make the BSs do what they're out to do?



Pretty bad idea, the battleships would most likely get killed before you non-triage carriers can lock onto them. And with 200k tank and 10k shield rep your BS wont be able to put out any DPS, sites will take FOREVER. Might as well move into a Red Giant and clear sleeper sites with multiple smart bombing carriers. Or you can log onto sisi and try out your idea.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#3 - 2013-05-28 15:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: 1c3crysta1
Gnaw LF wrote:

Pretty bad idea, the battleships would most likely get killed before you non-triage carriers can lock onto them. And with 200k tank and 10k shield rep your BS wont be able to put out any DPS, sites will take FOREVER. Might as well move into a Red Giant and clear sleeper sites with multiple smart bombing carriers. Or you can log onto sisi and try out your idea.


The rep will be from the carriers and the tank is easy to achieve in a pulsar with a shield bs with a resistance bonus. I could go all out and use 4x LSE and reach 400k tanks, but I rather find another use for those mids. The DPS from each BS would be around 800 (T2 fitted so far) and the carriers will be using a full set of firbolgs each. All around, 5k dps. Would use dreads if I could, but they need a webber and this will be done with 5 characters. Is it viable?

Edit:
The scorps will be buffed in the exp so that the tank would be abit higher. Also, the DPS will probably be around 1k, since cruise missiles will be buffed. Might be able to use Torps, depending if the range is enough (if the rig spots can be devoted to missile range). And to help with the instant death at warpin, the carriers could warp in first and prepare before the BSs warps in. Could get around 100mm scan res on the carriers without much trouble aswell.
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-05-28 16:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxandrolone
just warp 1 carrier at a time, assign drones from the 2nd one if you are worried about losing DPS.

whether they can alpha your BS's depends on their fit.

If you want to get as efficient as possible you can refit to tank off the carrier when you get primaried and you can tank 2 escalation waves no problem if you fit for them

Escalated sleeper BS's orbit at about 43km so make sure your optimal is about that
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#5 - 2013-05-28 17:05:37 UTC
Yea you probably can, you probably should have more ehp on the BS's as well, but i don't get why you would do this instead of just using a dread.

3-4 BS + 2 carriers will take forever to finish two escalation waves.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-05-28 17:36:07 UTC
1c3crysta1 wrote:
the carriers could warp in first and prepare before the BSs warps in. Could get around 100mm scan res on the carriers without much trouble aswell.



Sorry bro, this had me laughing out loud, I actually pictured a carrier warping in first and mentally preparing itself to catch a BS before its alphaed by sleepers. Yeah, you can get a better scan res but look at all the crap you have to do JUST because you are refusing the do the sites the easy way. Like I said, try it on Sisi and if that fails try the whole Red Giant smart bomb trick.
Scoto Timta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-05-28 18:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Scoto Timta
Long time ago (~3 years) I lived in a C5 pulsar. We ran the sites with spider tanked Raven fleets (typically 5-6 Ravens, and then we started adding ECM scorps, too) and then, once we had cap pilots, started to escalate with the 1 (later 2) carriers we had. Several times we came very close to losing battleships to the alpha from a single cap escalation wave.

Yes, I know we were doing it "wrong". Lol But my point is simply this... Don't underestimate the incoming damage (alpha) from those escalation waves, even in a pulsar. We almost died to a single escalation wave in the 10-20 seconds it took for the other battleships in fleet to switch reps over to the primary target. You are talking about having BOTH carrier waves on the field when your battleships arrive. It's gonna take even longer while for your carriers to get lock on the battleships and start the rep cycles, and you will have nearly double the incoming dps. I see dead battleships in your future.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#8 - 2013-05-28 18:08:35 UTC
Ofc it's not the easy way, but is there any easy way to do C5s with 5 characters? (No, I'm not soloing)
Thought about it some and tried some fittings, but I think a pulsar, 2 carriers and 3 battleships is the best way to do it if that's what you got. It should work, since I could get the initial aggro on a carrier and the sig bloom along with a decent scan res makes it able to lock the battleships in about 7 seconds (according to EFT). The battleships would be able to take 10k DPS for about 15 seconds before the shield is out (the missiles are half of the DPS aswell, which won't be there directly). And that is the worst case scenario, with ALL sleepers directly applying full DPS as soon as the BS lands on grid. It might sound a crazy and testing it out on sisi is a good suggestion, but it surely sounds like an exciting goal. (Currently bored in a C4). As for taking forever:
Each guardian have 55k hp (with ~75% resists) and 27k hull, which adds up to 55*4 + 27 = 247k EHP. (Taken from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=23&return_to=)
With 5k DPS, that is about 50 sec per guardian. 20 guardians should survive for about 17min (theoretically, but shouldn't be more then 30min). Not forever Smile
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#9 - 2013-05-28 18:08:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
I'd reccomend triage fitting your carriers even if they don't need to - its just silly not to when having it there can bail you out potentially if stuff hits the fan and I'd also highly reccomend a C5 pulsar if your gonna roll with chimeras and shield tanked battleships. I'd also highly reccomend getting some siege links.

Bare in mind that the sleeper guardians will generally spawn over 60km away and will burn in to orbit ~35km - much of the time you will need to be putting full damage at around 40-45km.

In a C5 pulsar 2 chimeras properly fit, with the appropriate links, will laugh at 2 waves of sleeper guardians - even without triage they can keep each other up all day long and battleships can be tanked up to 100s of thousands of EHP - I used to run a rattlesnake with 1m (carrier levels) EHP. Your biggest problem is going to be doing damage to kill the guardians in a reasonable timeframe, if your not using dreads then really you want to be looking at ships like nightmares that can apply around 1k dps at 40-45km.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#10 - 2013-05-28 18:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: 1c3crysta1
Scoto Timta wrote:
Long time ago (~3 years) I lived in a C5 pulsar. We ran the sites with spider tanked Raven fleets (typically 5-6 Ravens, and then we started adding ECM scorps, too) and then, once we had cap pilots, started to escalate with the 1 (later 2) carriers we had. Several times we came very close to losing battleships to the alpha from a single cap escalation wave.

Yes, I know we were doing it "wrong". Lol But my point is simply this... Don't underestimate the incoming damage (alpha) from those escalation waves, even in a pulsar. We almost died to a single escalation wave in the 10-20 seconds it took for the other battleships in fleet to switch reps over to the primary target. You are talking about having BOTH carrier waves on the field when your battleships arrive. It's gonna take even longer while for your carriers to get lock on the battleships and start the rep cycles, and you will have nearly double the incoming dps. I see dead battleships in your future.


Someone talking from experience, golden :)
If it's too much for the BSs to handle at the start, it could possibly work with 1 Carrier and 3 BSs to get the worst DPS of the field before the 2nd comes along. Another option is to have both carriers, alone at the start. With 3.2m shield EHP, they should be able just deal 2k DPS for as long as it takes for the BSs to safely enter the fray.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#11 - 2013-05-28 18:19:08 UTC
Rroff wrote:
I'd reccomend triage fitting your carriers even if they don't need to - its just silly not to when having it there can bail you out potentially if stuff hits the fan and I'd also highly reccomend a C5 pulsar if your gonna roll with chimeras and shield tanked battleships. I'd also highly reccomend getting some siege links.

Bare in mind that the sleeper guardians will generally spawn over 60km away and will burn in to orbit ~35km - much of the time you will need to be putting full damage at around 40-45km.

In a C5 pulsar 2 chimeras properly fit, with the appropriate links, will laugh at 2 waves of sleeper guardians - even without triage they can keep each other up all day long and battleships can be tanked up to 100s of thousands of EHP - I used to run a rattlesnake with 1m (carrier levels) EHP. Your biggest problem is going to be doing damage to kill the guardians in a reasonable timeframe, if your not using dreads then really you want to be looking at ships like nightmares that can apply around 1k dps at 40-45km.


As for the Triage, it not impossible to have it around, I agree that it's a wonderful "oh ****!"-button, but the main thought it to have 3 reppers and 2 cap transfers to keep the carriers safely stable while repping as much as possible. How do get them up to 1m EHP? Implants? Might be an option aswell since it's going to be expensive anyway...
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#12 - 2013-05-28 18:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
^^ Assuming your fits are sound and your using siege links locking and keeping a battleship alive in a C5 pulsar against 2 waves will be perfectly doable aslong as your carrier pilots are on the ball.

Also if your carriers are closer to the guardians initially than your battleships the sleepers will usually primary the carriers (tho it doesn't work 100% of the time).


1c3crysta1 wrote:

As for the Triage, it not impossible to have it around, I agree that it's a wonderful "oh ****!"-button, but the main thought it to have 3 reppers and 2 cap transfers to keep the carriers safely stable while repping as much as possible. How do get them up to 1m EHP? Implants? Might be an option aswell since it's going to be expensive anyway...


Aslong as your pilots have reasonable skills and someone can do a half reasonable level of siege links then tank/cap will be the least of your issues - tho I'd probably suggest doing one escalation at a time initially to get a feel for it - 14 guardians is something like -508 cap/s with relatively low cap alpha - throw in some genolution cores and some cap implants and your laughing. I'd still strongly suggest triage tho, the capabilities of a triage chimera in a pulsar is quite frankly ludicrous - take this one for example http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17868579 took that fleet over 45 minutes to kill it (or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeMeDIuds which was a C6 pulsar).

You probably won't get most battleships upto 1m EHP the rattlesnake has resist bonuses and tons of base shield HP - was more illustration that you can get battleship tanks upto pretty insane levels in a pulsar.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#13 - 2013-05-28 20:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: 1c3crysta1
Rroff wrote:

Text


Gonna take you up on going triage, atleast on one carrier. Nice links Blink
As for the 1m BS fit, a totally pimped and boosted rattlesnake in that c5 reached 1.36m EHP, quite wicked.
The best option that I found is a navy scorp, reached 375k EHP and 800 DPS with cruise missiles (before the expansion, so the DPS will be closer to 900). That is quite good aswell Cool

Edit:
Even better, thought that the Siege Link wasn't worth offering a repper for, but hell!
With 420k EHP and an average resistance multiplier of 6.5, this ships could "almost" take these waves on solo!
Tinna Benuse
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-28 20:40:25 UTC
If you didn't see this tutorial, here is my recommendation.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/01/eve-evolved-five-awesome-carrier-tactics/
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#15 - 2013-05-28 20:54:38 UTC
In a pulsar, why not just go with something based on tengus?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#16 - 2013-05-28 20:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
1c3crysta1 wrote:

Edit:
Even better, thought that the Siege Link wasn't worth offering a repper for, but hell!
With 420k EHP and an average resistance multiplier of 6.5, this ships could "almost" take these waves on solo!


Not quite following you there but don't stick ganglinks on the carriers unless your completely out of options, either boost from POS if someones got a spare alt in a BC/CS/T3 or stick em in a command ship or something on grid (not really reccomended).
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#17 - 2013-05-28 21:10:24 UTC
Rroff wrote:
1c3crysta1 wrote:

Edit:
Even better, thought that the Siege Link wasn't worth offering a repper for, but hell!
With 420k EHP and an average resistance multiplier of 6.5, this ships could "almost" take these waves on solo!


Not quite following you there but don't stick ganglinks on the carriers unless your completely out of options, either boost from POS if someones got a spare alt in a BC/CS/T3 or stick em in a command ship or something on grid (not really reccomended).


Well, the resistances gained was almost as much as the rep from that last rep. 1/5 reppers (from both ships), but 15-20% extra resist. If I had characters to spare, I would just go for the setup in the guide offered by Milton.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#18 - 2013-05-28 21:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: 1c3crysta1
Tinna Benuse wrote:
If you didn't see this tutorial, here is my recommendation.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/01/eve-evolved-five-awesome-carrier-tactics/


Cool guide, but the only thing related to cap escalations was that section, which didn't say much and that video, which was more cool than educational.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#19 - 2013-05-28 21:12:38 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
In a pulsar, why not just go with something based on tengus?


Because I love big things Twisted
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-05-28 21:41:44 UTC
a.) pulsar doesnt give resist bonus
b.) no point at all warping in 2 carriers at one
c.) you WILL need to triage if using BSs, even with just 1 carrier wave

PS: dont use tengus, theyre ****.

There is no Bob.

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