These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

First post First post First post
Author
Ankari Lytaken
Inept Astronomics
#221 - 2013-05-29 08:53:32 UTC
I am sure this has been mentioned before, and I cannot be arsed to go through this entire thread, but I just wanted to voice my opinion (as what I would consider to be a casual solo player) that I dislike the probes being automagically returned to your ship when you jump. Not so much because of immersion or whatever, but because it seems to remove some aspects of gameplay that I have come to appreciate about this game and yet does not really add anything.

I have gotten lost in wormholes before due to a panic inspired loss of probes, and I was forced to (gasp) communicate with other players, something I would not have done under normal circumstances. It cost me a few ISK, but in the end it was a pleasant experience (mostly because it was far less ISK than the cost of my ship + implants, but still).

So yeah, maybe think about it once or twice before you go through with this specific change. Besides, what about the poor probe manufacturers?
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-05-29 09:02:41 UTC
Can't say I approve of all the hand holding going on in this release.
ccp has been invaded by hello kitty developers.

What have you done with the real eve developers you fiends ?




Adam Reed
The Winchester Club
#223 - 2013-05-29 09:39:39 UTC
I sense the business with the cans shooting off in all directions is going to be desperately frustrating.

Generally it feels as though those of us who do exploration in its current state are losing out at the expense of new players. Sometimes it happens I suppose but we don't have to feel happy about it. If CCP could make clear how experienced explorers can retain an edge over new players perhaps we'll be less inclined to moan about the changes. I don't know, maybe maxed-out exploring skills make the cans hurtle off a little slower so we've a chance to grab more of them before they vanish, something like that.

And I have to join in the chorus of disapproval at the automatically recalled probes, it just doesn't feel like the game I've been playing for years, makes it feel a little less real if that makes any sense.
Dierdra Vaal
Interstellar Stargate Syndicate
#224 - 2013-05-29 09:44:48 UTC
Two questions:

* Will the new probe/scanner window have the 'disable probe' toggle that the current window has? This toggle made it very easy to toggle groups of probes on/off. I use this a lot when using 2 groups of 4 probes to scan down 2 sites at the same time, where I disable one group to collectively move/resize the other without affecting the first group.

* The drug manufacturing sites that were essentially combat sites with a bunch of hacking containers that held booster BPCs and materials, what type will these fall under? Gas, Combat or Data?

Veto #205

Director Emeritus at EVE University

CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman

Evesterdam organiser and CSM Vote Match founder

Co-Author of the Galactic Party Planning Guide

Dmitri Ronuken
ReStore of Reset
#225 - 2013-05-29 09:49:41 UTC
Adam Reed wrote:
I sense the business with the cans shooting off in all directions is going to be desperately frustrating.



I need to try this out on the test server. I play EVE on a laptop convertible with a stylus, and I'm wondering if I'll have a wondrous advantage by being able to tap each and every piece of loot with my pen onscreen vs. everyone else that is hurriedly dragging their mouse around trying to click on loot as it moves.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-05-29 09:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Bolds (numbered) from blog, responses by yours trully:

1. The goal was to try to make exploration as easily accessible in the early stages as those two, as exploration allows players to experience better the unique flair of EVE than mining or missioning does.

And in doing so, you actually made it more annoying for those using different scanning techniques. What's worse, you've removed some mystery from space, as the overview scanner now instantly tells you if there are sites in the system.

2. You launch all probes in your launcher at once, regardless of how many you currently have loaded. You can have a maximum of 8 probes in space at the same time. All players can use 8 probes now by default as the Astrometrics skill no longer limits the number.

The mechanic for this is... let's just say it could be better. Let's assume I only want to launch two probes. In order to do so, the fastest way is to launch all of them, however many I have loaded and then recall the unneeded ones. That's just messy. What's worse, let's say I want a classical 4+4 spread (most WH people will know the formation). It's a planar spread, without Z-axis variation, however both preset launches have probes that are offset, meaning I'll need to spend extra time fixing this. It's not much work for a trained explorer, but it's no better than the previous system. There is no way at all to launch all probes in a planar spread. There's no way at all to launch probes stacked up. There's no way at all to launch all probes as the explorer wants it. In other words, you are shoving your choices down our throats whether we like it or not - and the forums should be indicative enough on what people think about it.

3. There are two pre-set formations coming in Odyssey for players to use – Spread (probes aligned to cover a large area) and Pinpoint (probes aligned to focus on one point). These are not intended to be the absolute best possible formations, but rather a solid starting point for budding explorers.

You're trying to be good to starting players, I understand that. However, imo, you should only make it a very basic setup, then allow players to save their own formations. There should be room for growth and you shouldn't be punished for making things in your own way.

4. The probes launch into space next to your ship, but the formation view in the solar system map is centered around the sun and is not indicating the current position of the probes until you hit scan and they warp to the positions you've determined.

Completely unintuitive. Unless you READ about it in this very blog, there's no way at all for a new player to know this. When I first saw it, I automatically assumed that is where the probes are. It wasn't until I saw them in space next to me that I realized that's not the case.

5. The default method for moving probes is a single handle for all probes you have out. Holding Shift will give you an individual handle for each probe, same as the current default. Holding Alt allows you to move your probes closer together.

Probes will also resize together by default, holding Shift allows for individual resizing. Note that this is the opposite of the previous system. Resizing probes keeps them centered. We’ve also made the celestial brackets be less in the way when moving/resizing probes.


Default grouping is fine, it's the natural way anyway. It would be great if resizing happened in relative rather than absolute sizes.

6. The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead.

Worst change of them all. I could have swallowed the rest of the changes, but this one alone kills your whole work for me. This is a HUGE no-no, which should never have happened in EVE, a game where your actions (or inactions) supposedly have consequences.

7. The system remembers your last probe setup before they were automatically recalled so they can be quickly deployed again in the same pattern (by activating the launcher). No more forsaken probes in space!

This mechanic should be part of the manual, rather than automatic recall, as it "remembers" player's setup.

8. Deep Space Probes (DSP) are being removed.

Don't like it, but I'll live.

9. We’re changing the terminology of a few things

Needless, it takes away from the immersion. Just because something is a radar doesn't mean it's a radar on a plane, does it?


Overall: BOOOO - which you should have known by now if you had bothered to read the test server feedback thread.
These changes are actually bad enough that at least this part of the expansion should get delayed, because all you'll be doing by releasing it in current shape is pissing explorers off.
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#227 - 2013-05-29 10:04:41 UTC
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
Two questions:

......................

* The drug manufacturing sites that were essentially combat sites with a bunch of hacking containers that held booster BPCs and materials, what type will these fall under? Gas, Combat or Data?


They belong to Null COSMOS and as such they are now regarded as Relic sites.
Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#228 - 2013-05-29 10:16:02 UTC
CCP, the changes in the blog are mostly 'okay' even though some of them are questionable or even outright wrong. However, I feel like there is something missing from this coming this expansion, namely the exploration expansion itself. You have now told us about the changes, next lets get to your big secret the main dish of the expansion! CCP, please tell us about the new stuff soon, we explorers are eagerly awaiting for the good news from your Team Big Secret! We are sure you won't let us down!

Just one of the explorers
PS: The worst wrong change imo is Grav/Ore sites becoming anomalies, and doing heavy damage to many of the wormhole (and to lesser extent to null sec) miners.
William Sedgwick Vyvorant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2013-05-29 10:51:39 UTC
Ptah of Thebes wrote:
I find it hilarious that some people are complaining about Eve not being Sci-Fi and this update ruining their immersion. This is obviously because Eve already contains Newtonian physics, right? And projectile (to include Hybrids as well) weapons systems that travel up to hundreds of kilometers in an instant, barring of course missiles. Super-light speed is also scientifically possible.

In other words, you already suspend your disbelief for core aspects of the game. Please shut up about your "immersion" being the excuse for a change and give feedback based on game theory, player experience, balance, or something equally as valuable.


The thing with Sci-Fi and the suspension of disbelief is that a consistency within a universe is key. For probes auto recalling my issue would be that if my probes can instantly appear in my cargo hold when I jump a gate 100AU from where the probes were dropped why don't my probes move everywhere instantly, why is there a a transit time before they start scanning? It doesn't make sense and is needless hand holding, at the moment if you lose your probes you learn to remember to recall them, now there's going to be no consequence to someone forgetting.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#230 - 2013-05-29 11:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
You launch all probes in your launcher at once, regardless of how many you currently have loaded. You can have a maximum of 8 probes in space at the same time. All players can use 8 probes now by default as the Astrometrics skill no longer limits the number.

I'm assuming you are not going to let us reload the probe launcher while cloaked and that we are still going to have to wait 10 seconds for the probes to reload?

Edit: also, is anyone else worried that the reintroduction of faction towers means that the POS revamp is going to be delayed even further?
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#231 - 2013-05-29 11:06:34 UTC
Abigail Sagan wrote:
CCP, the changes in the blog are mostly 'okay' even though some of them are questionable or even outright wrong. However, I feel like there is something missing from this coming this expansion, namely the exploration expansion itself. You have now told us about the changes, next lets get to your big secret the main dish of the expansion! CCP, please tell us about the new stuff soon, we explorers are eagerly awaiting for the good news from your Team Big Secret! We are sure you won't let us down!



As an explorer, why would you want to be told exactly what's out there to find? Roll
Antibac
Maul Corp
#232 - 2013-05-29 11:14:27 UTC
Pretty much all of this has already been mentioned by others, but I wanted to add my voice:

Auto-recalling probes on session change:

- This removes the mechanic of making a choice to wait on a WH/gate/station to get your Sister's probes back, or running off and leaving them because you're under fire.

- Also, as people have stated, it's preventing people from making a flying mistake (leaving their probes behind somewhere) and suffering the consequences (losing money, or at worst, getting stranded in a WH).

- Also you will no longer be able to leave probes out in system to confuse/scare your enemies in WH space. I regularly use T1 probes as WH squid-ink.


Launching all loaded probes at once:

- This makes probing somewhat safer in hostile space as you don't have to stay uncloaked for 7 times as long in order to drop 7 probes. For slower ships, where you can't move off your decloak point very fast once you recloak, this could be a pretty big buff.

- Also it means you can't launch a single probe and then recloak more than once. You will *always* have to reload the launcher to launch a second probe, which means sitting uncloaked for 10 seconds.


I also don't understand why you've gone for the UX nightmare of swapping around pre-existing probe movement controls that players have got used to, but at least that's something I can just re-learn eventually, it doesn't really impact the game at all.


Finally the change to make asteroid belts into anomalies instead of signatures seems to be making life much harder for miners who are not in hisec. With this change, I can now drop into system in a cloaking ship, d-scan to see if there's barges out, system scan to find the mining sites, and warp right on top of them without them ever seeing me.

In wormhole space, this will make the mining sites even more unattractive as you won't even have local to alert you that some cloaker is about to land on you at zero. Right now a WH miner has the slight safety net that someone either needs to scan out the signature you are in (so you can see the probes and get to safety), or have made the effort to scan it out before you were there, and lie in wait for you (in which case maybe they deserve your loot for all their hard work).
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#233 - 2013-05-29 11:49:14 UTC
These changes make scanning a trivial, mundane task that has no room for player or character skills, so it's just an annoyance before you can warp to the sig you see right away when you jump in a system.

When something becomes too simple, you need start thinking of the value the feature itself has. Is it interesting? Does it improve immersion? Player interaction? Satisfaction?

What value does the scanner bring in comparison with just warping to any sig directly?

.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#234 - 2013-05-29 11:53:58 UTC
^ Was clicking a button really that interesting?
Space Wanderer
#235 - 2013-05-29 11:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Roime wrote:
These changes make scanning a trivial, mundane task that has no room for player or character skills, so it's just an annoyance before you can warp to the sig you see right away when you jump in a system.

When something becomes too simple, you need start thinking of the value the feature itself has. Is it interesting? Does it improve immersion? Player interaction? Satisfaction?

What value does the scanner bring in comparison with just warping to any sig directly?



I have to agree with this. While I understand what was the aim of the devs, i think that they went after it in a horrible way. Acqtually the opposite way. Instead of giving you a tool to identify your target (the DSP used to do that) and then requiring you to hunt for it in a complex and engaging way, they removed all the tools to identify your target, and then require you to hunt every possible target in a simple and mechanic way.

This is getting more and more towards grinding and less and less from exploration. i am afraid that they are moving farther from the vision they proposed, instead than towards it...
Frank Pannon
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2013-05-29 12:09:40 UTC
A lot of good arguments can be read in this thread why these probing changes are not beneficial, and take away player-made choices, offering a blanket solution instead.

When I started playing 3 years ago, I was drawn to this great universe by the graphics, the sheer endlessness of space, the freedom provided by the sandbox, and the dark and unforgiving environment that was provided by game mechanics and the EVE community itself.

A few month into my gaming I saw the Causailty trailer (watch it, it is great), let me quote from it: „You have entered a universe where the path to glory is paved by one's choices. Those choices do not come without consequence, and every action taken can carry one closer to their highest goals or drag them down to unimaginable depths. EVE Online's Summer 2010 trailer, "Causality," presents a scenario where each participant's decisions lead them to their respective destinations, for better or for worse.” Also a famous quote I read a lot back than from a CCP developer was: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." / CCP Wrangler.

While my analogy might be far fetched, and I can not pinpoint exactly why, but I feel like this dark, harsh universe is fading away. Now I read people complaining that it is unfair towards newer players that some parts of the universe are closed off to them from day one. EVE is a fantastic sandbox, and there is NOTHING remotely fair in a sandbox. The bigger kids beat up the smaller ones. But once the small kid figures out a way to make the bully cry, you can not wipe the smile from his face.

Learning probing and the geometry behind it was a nice personal achievement, which I feel like is now being taken away from newbros. I once got stuck in a WH with my Orca trying to close a hole. Luckily got stranded with my prober on the same side. With Lady Luck helping and a lot of caution I managed to get back to hisec in about a week through multiple wormholes. This is not about me being pro, but about EXCITEMENT, the MISTERY, the CONSEQUENCES, and the REWARDS of succeeding. The day I got back to hisec I was THE proudest guy in EVE.

I completely understand CCP’s standpoint, they need to grow the playerbase, and make EVE more appealing to new players. I also want EVE to strive and gain more people, since I want to play for years to come. Hell, I just extended for another year! I just fear that in their eagerness they crack the fundametals of this great game.

P.s. RIP WH mining.
Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#237 - 2013-05-29 12:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Abigail Sagan
Rek Seven wrote:

As an explorer, why would you want to be told exactly what's out there to find? Roll


Eh, I don't want to know "exactly" what new there 'will be'. Instead I would love to know for sure that there is an expansion, not just these changes. I would be very happy if CCP told us that there will be a new site or maybe even two per faction for example. However, since CCP has not told us there will be those, I am starting to lose the hope of seeing "new stuff" with this exploration expansion.

Also rationally CCP would be wise to advertise the New Stuff, because that would bring in more customers. Now that they are quiet about 'new stuff', it simply tells us that there is no new stuff. Only these tweaks, eyecandy, clickfest with pinata at end and new limitation or two. In my opinion these changes aren't worth the title "exploration expansion".

Well, I admit, I probably expected too much when I heard Odyssey would be about exploration:
Odyssey Web Page wrote:

EVE Online's nineteenth free expansion, Odyssey, offers new tools for exploring the stars, challenges you to breach the unknown for adventure and rewards, and to face what lies on the other side.


My above post was just my bitter vet reaction to admitting I expected too much from CCP - again. Maybe I learn one of these days? Or will CCP actually surprise me positively with their live streams today and tomorrow? Unfortunately I find the likelyhood of that to be .. tiny.
Paula Uta
Doomheim
#238 - 2013-05-29 12:14:26 UTC


1. The goal was to try to make exploration as easily accessible in the early stages as those two, as exploration allows players to experience better the unique flair of EVE than mining or missioning does.

So exploration is quite cool , mission and mining are shallow and boring .

So you want more people into exploration since it give more emergent gameplay so you are making it as shallow nad boring as missions !!
Congratulations on your mastery of logic.
Dino Boff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2013-05-29 12:20:59 UTC
Have you thought of disallowing scanning mods on ships with scanning bonus. They would allow normal ships to be good at scanning at the expense of mid slots but wouldn't make probing so easy on covop and exploration t1 frigate?
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#240 - 2013-05-29 12:33:16 UTC
Three immediate concerns with this new system. Appologies if these have been answered, I'm on my phone which makes it much harder to read through the entire thread.

1) with regards to not being able to leave your probes behind. While handy, there are some instances where I want to leave my probes behind, like creeping out wormhole neighbors. Will I still be able to manually abandon them?

2) with regards to DSP, I'm rather upset about this, not because I've ever used them, but because I think its another indication that things are being limited to the area around planets on the solar plane. Its just dissapointing that there isnt anything way put there to find with deep space probes.

3) I have no love for miners and will enjoy being able to hunt them easier, but I do feel like the current soverenty system rewards (whatever you call it) is stacked unfairly towards ratters and not miners. I.e. its easy to get a system to lv5 mil index and keep it there. It seems much harder to do the same for industry. Will this index be tweeked to allow more nullsec alliances to take advantage of local minerals and attract more miners to nullsec?