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Deeply concerned about scanning changes

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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2013-05-28 13:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
I am playing this game to have challenging fun. For a good part the interaction with other GROWN UPS, who share this entitlement, is the reason I came to Eve from [enter a MMO here]. If it gets dumbed down for kids I will leave.

This scanning changes are another piece in this "dumb down puzzle". Don´t get me wrong...it looks fancy and all but it definitly should not be easy like they plan it to be. The remove of deep space probes is sad especially for WH dwellers (someone mentioned the unique signature of k162)...I guess a spawn of a new wh will now show up on the fancy scan as a "red something" so that probably mitigates (correct me if I am wrong).

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#42 - 2013-05-28 13:05:54 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
on the plus side actually scanning is way less swear inducing.


Unless you use advanced(unique) probing techniques, then its even more so.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-05-28 13:11:35 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
on the plus side actually scanning is way less swear inducing.


Unless you use advanced(unique) probing techniques, then its even more so.


actually pinpointing stuff is way better (imo) you control the formation not individual probes and it's much easier to judge if you're centered without swinging the angle around excessively. or finding the focus getting stuck on celestials and having to click off in space.

it takes a little while to get used to it, I maybe played for an hour on sisi.

forums.  serious business.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-05-28 13:16:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Shaden Nightwalker wrote:
Roime wrote:
I don't cherrypick sites, but had other high value unique uses for DSPs.


Which ones, if I may ask, now that they will be gone soon, anyway?



Let's play open-hand misere.

You're in a wormhole. You're doing stuff. You want to make sure other people don't catch you by surprise. If you spam D-scan at 360° you will catch people as they warp into your site. But you can catch people earlier than this!

If you have DSPs, you can deploy one (and only one) DSP and monitor signature strength. If someone probes out a wormhole into your system, this will show up because K162 wormholes have a different signature strength to (for all intents and purposes in this discussion) every other signature you will find.

This works for DSPs but not a constellation of core or combat scanner probes. The catch is that DSPs have a very low signal strength and a very high range. This means that regardless of where a signature appears in your 256 radius sphere of detection, a K162 will show up as about 0.27% signal strength.

With core or combat probes, you have a much higher signal strength which means that that K162 really close to your probe will look like a 1% signal strength while far away it will be a 0.2% signal strength. As such, core and combat probes are not as effective as an early warning system: all you can see is that something changed. You don't know whether this is a new signature such as a grav site (well, after Odyssey there will be no grav sites, but work with me here) or a K162.

So whlie CCP Soundwave's idea of a constellation of core/combat probes has some merit in terms of replacing part of the functionality of the DSP early warning system, it only does half the job.

Of course CCP could just come out and tell us that with this expansion they had the design intent of removing the ability to filter sites and possibly identify them by signal strength, and we'd accept their decision to remove DSPs, etc. In the meantime it looks like they have removed DSPs because they don't understand how the players actually play the game (remembering the great nullsec nerf of FanFest 2011 for a classic example).

So for people like James Amril-Kesh and myself, the question is: are CCP deliberately removing this feature because they feel that our current abilities are overpowered, or are they bulls let loose in the china shop?


Could it be possible that CCP didn't want people to be able to pull this off or the cherry picking scenario? Dosen't being able to identify what will be there after a single scan counter intuitive to what exploring should be?
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-05-28 13:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

CCP then, a week before the expansion, removes the signal strength display in the scanner and the overlay based on some perceived issue that nobody had complained about, significantly reducing the scanning functionality once again.


WHAT!? Let me get this straight, when I tested this out on singularity when it was released you could view the signal strength of the anomaly by mousing over the signature in space. Are you saying they removed this and there is no way to see the signal strength anymore? That sucks if they just did that! Why would they do that???

From the feedback people were telling them to put the signal strength on the actual scanning overview. And now your saying they've removed it completely!?
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#46 - 2013-05-28 13:26:59 UTC
None of what I've seen regarding the changes to scanning seem to be thought out very well or have any sort of theme. For instance, the seven probe setup.

It really seems to be a set of good ideas combined with a bunch of bad ones without any thought to how they are combined. The auto scanner, new modules, and display changes are great. DSPs, forced probe set ups, all grav sites on scan (whs anyone?) are bad.

Based on fanfest, Odyssey was suppose to be about exploration right? Why does this new system seem like these devs missed that memo?

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#47 - 2013-05-28 13:29:10 UTC
This got dumbed down years ago into what we have now. Now it's dumbed down with a shiny interface. It won't be long until once you warp to a site it's considered private and disappears from the scanner. Restricting Tech3 hulls from 3-4/10s is a definite nod to the complainers that quit because they always loose the good sites to Tenjews with a DSP and a guide.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#48 - 2013-05-28 13:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Could it be possible that CCP didn't want people to be able to pull this off or the cherry picking scenario? Dosen't being able to identify what will be there after a single scan counter intuitive to what exploring should be?


You know, if that was their intent, they really aren't communicating that message particularly well. CCP Greyscales' response was along the lines of, "we probably broke some playstyle that you were used to but we don't care."

I would be equally happy if CCP came to us and said, "using DSPs to filter signatures was considered overpowered, so we have removed that ability," or if they came to us and said, "wow, we didn't realise that you guys had developed this technique! That's pretty clever and we figure you should be allowed to keep it. Here, have your DSPs back!"

I'm almost 100% certain that CCP have removed DSPs deliberately for the purpose of preventing whole-system-filtering as I described in that earlier post. I'd just like them to come out and say it, so all of us explorers can accept the change and move on. Yes, we'll complain a bit about losing DSPs, but we'll manage. The smart ones will learn new tricks, people like me will pick those tricks up, and eventually we'll chuckle about the horrible old days when exploration wasn't half as interesting because we'd know what was in a system before we launched our core scanner probes.

My opinion here is simple: CCP (Greyscale) needs to just front up and say that the ability to classify by signal strength has been classified as "broken" and they removed it on purpose. Otherwise we're left with the impression that whole system filtering was left out by accident due to the developers not having researched the gameplay surrounding a feature they were screwing with.

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2013-05-28 13:47:09 UTC
Well then add random variation to signals bands and mix the bands?

I tbh I don't think cherrypicking would be an issue without hisec GSO harvesting. T3 block from hisec DEDs is certainly a reaction to that infection, but neither of these fix the issues which go all the way down to botched loot tables, site desing and the elephant in the room- how to design content for new players that can't be exploited by older players.

.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#50 - 2013-05-28 14:00:58 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
on the plus side actually scanning is way less swear inducing.


Unless you use advanced(unique) probing techniques, then its even more so.


actually pinpointing stuff is way better (imo) you control the formation not individual probes and it's much easier to judge if you're centered without swinging the angle around excessively. or finding the focus getting stuck on celestials and having to click off in space.

it takes a little while to get used to it, I maybe played for an hour on sisi.


As I stated, advanced or unique probing techniques. The new system makes it easier for those who don't know or use anything other then a single cluster formation. With the new system if you use any technique outside of the 8 probe cluster, you now need to dissemble CCP's preset formation and then reassemble into what ever formation you use. Not to mention with the defined all or nothing probe # limitation, hinders variety in probing techniques. Backwards thinking for a sandbox game.




CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2013-05-28 14:03:53 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

And less than chaining anoms, which doesn't require scanning of any kind apart from "press butan, receive warpin".


Those are getting a nerf/challange buff.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-05-28 14:04:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

And less than chaining anoms, which doesn't require scanning of any kind apart from "press butan, receive warpin".


Those are getting a nerf/challange buff.

Not necessarily. Sanctums are getting buffed.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Incorruptibles
#53 - 2013-05-28 14:07:38 UTC
I can't understand why DSPs were removed. I suppose 'cherry-picking' sites in hisec might be seen as a problem, but stopping T3s from going into DEDs in hisec fixes that anyway.

Someone.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2013-05-28 14:10:57 UTC
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:
I can't understand why DSPs were removed. I suppose 'cherry-picking' sites in hisec might be seen as a problem, but stopping T3s from going into DEDs in hisec fixes that anyway.


Ishtar would simply take over.
Signal11th
#55 - 2013-05-28 14:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Shaden Nightwalker wrote:
Roime wrote:
I don't cherrypick sites, but had other high value unique uses for DSPs.


Which ones, if I may ask, now that they will be gone soon, anyway?



Let's play open-hand misere.

You're in a wormhole. You're doing stuff. You want to make sure other people don't catch you by surprise. If you spam D-scan at 360° you will catch people as they warp into your site. But you can catch people earlier than this!

If you have DSPs, you can deploy one (and only one) DSP and monitor signature strength. If someone probes out a wormhole into your system, this will show up because K162 wormholes have a different signature strength to (for all intents and purposes in this discussion) every other signature you will find.

This works for DSPs but not a constellation of core or combat scanner probes. The catch is that DSPs have a very low signal strength and a very high range. This means that regardless of where a signature appears in your 256 radius sphere of detection, a K162 will show up as about 0.27% signal strength.

With core or combat probes, you have a much higher signal strength which means that that K162 really close to your probe will look like a 1% signal strength while far away it will be a 0.2% signal strength. As such, core and combat probes are not as effective as an early warning system: all you can see is that something changed. You don't know whether this is a new signature such as a grav site (well, after Odyssey there will be no grav sites, but work with me here) or a K162.

So whlie CCP Soundwave's idea of a constellation of core/combat probes has some merit in terms of replacing part of the functionality of the DSP early warning system, it only does half the job.

Of course CCP could just come out and tell us that with this expansion they had the design intent of removing the ability to filter sites and possibly identify them by signal strength, and we'd accept their decision to remove DSPs, etc. In the meantime it looks like they have removed DSPs because they don't understand how the players actually play the game (remembering the great nullsec nerf of FanFest 2011 for a classic example).

So for people like James Amril-Kesh and myself, the question is: are CCP deliberately removing this feature because they feel that our current abilities are overpowered, or are they bulls let loose in the china shop?


Could it be possible that CCP didn't want people to be able to pull this off or the cherry picking scenario? Dosen't being able to identify what will be there after a single scan counter intuitive to what exploring should be?



Not really as scanning in EVE is pretty stagnant, you pretty much know what your are going to get anyway. theres nothing random or different in EVE you either get a site a complex or a wormhole.

I think they are basically making this game more time consuming and tedious just to mask the actual fact there is nothing new in it.


You kinda of know what you are going to get before you start scanning so why make it more time consuming? it's not like you are going to get something completely new and random is it?

I'm getting tired of the fact that when you learn skills that give you an advantage over other people who haven't been bothered to learn them they just get removed for a 'simpler' version, fecking fireworks and free ships and hello kitty here we come!

I have to +1 the OP

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Cilgil Arbosa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-05-28 14:21:45 UTC
It is clear that being able to read distinct site categories from a readymade table via Deep Space probes, i.e pouring soup through a colander leaving only the chunky bits behind without much thought or effort, was never "working as intended".

The extra effort we have to go through now is decisevely mitigated with ready made formations, new scan modules, buffs to the Astrometrics skill and being able to launch all probes at once (boy how I ever hated to launch those individually for no good reason at all).


Now the work we put into scanning down a signature is made much less repetetive and stupid. We gained a optimized system for the veterans and a more intuitive interface for dabbling explorers.
The only thing the complainers lost is the privilege of the insider; without the handy lists the field is leveled again and character training and skill determine how fast and effective you explore.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2013-05-28 14:24:11 UTC
Wow. That's pretty... "special". Ugh
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#58 - 2013-05-28 14:27:20 UTC
I'm not sure how I feel about this.

On the one hand losing functionality is never good.

On the other hand what mystique is there in being able to know what every signature is within seconds of entering a system? When Apocrypha first hit wormholes were the new frontier and were genuinely mysterious - nowadays, and for some time, it is fully mapped out and completely predictable. The only unknown left is whether you'll get jumped running sites or not, everything else surprising is usually as a consequence of someone messing up (e.g. triggers in sites, mass miscalculation, etc)

I'm a fan of exploration and I do miss the old feeling of jumping into a wormhole and not knowing anything about it until I'd had a look around. Wormholes might as well be considered null sec with quirky stargates for all the mystery they exhibit, it's even got disappointingly increasing levels of blueing and blobbing relative to the good old days.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2013-05-28 14:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Cilgil Arbosa wrote:
It is clear that being able to read distinct site categories from a readymade table via Deep Space probes, i.e pouring soup through a colander leaving only the chunky bits behind without much thought or effort, was never "working as intended".

So you admit to not actually understanding how any of this works, because knowing the signal strength still doesn't tell you what kind of site it is, it just tells you that if it's a certain class of signature which level it might be.

For example if I'm scanning in Tenal, a 10% signal strength cosmic signature might be a Guristas Troop Reinvigoration Camp (DED 6/10), a Gurista Fortress, Radiance, wormholes to C5, to nullsec, or a K162, a Central Guristas Sparking Transmitter... etc.

Cilgil Arbosa wrote:
The extra effort we have to go through now is decisevely mitigated with ready made formations, new scan modules, buffs to the Astrometrics skill and being able to launch all probes at once (boy how I ever hated to launch those individually for no good reason at all).

Some of which are rather nice, but they're also offset by the fact that you're ]forced to launch all probes in the launcher up to 8 (and there might be good reasons not to), by the fact that the default initial scan position is now at the sun instead of at the ship's location and there's no way to change that either, and by the fact that DSP and all of their functionality have been removed for no real reason.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#60 - 2013-05-28 14:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
Aren't we ultimately just talking about things taking a bit more time? It's not as if this change is going to impact you personally and no one else. Everyone who would previously have been relying on lookup tables to ignore uninteresting sigs is going to have to put in the same legwork you do now.

It sounds to me that you (and others) are getting a bit angry over undocumented features like signatures being easily identifiable (even down to a list such as that you provided) reducing your superiority in exploration. As a rule I don't think undocumented quirks - some might say flaws or information leaks - is a good basis for any fair system.

Cosmic signatures percentages should never have been as static as they have been in the first place, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't ever be fixed just because that's how you're used to working.