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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

First post First post
Author
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas
SONS of BANE
#141 - 2013-05-29 11:55:20 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:
In response to my earlier post, this is more what I would have liked Archaeology to be like...

You discover something and scan it

Which leads to...

Using science and industry skills to study it and narrow down other linked sites

so you...

Fly there and discover more clues

which then goes to...

More exploration of New Eden's history, landmarks and scenic vistas

and so on and so on, until...

The resulting data and notes from your search are turned into interested factions, thus leading to rewards, standing, knowledge and a feeling of accomplishment

Added future features...

Incarna lab to study discoveries

and...

Cartography room to view results and plan your next move.

(Thanks to CCP, Bioware, Square-Enix and Relic for some of the art)

Not suggesting you change the existing idea or implement this, just saying, in an ideal world, this is what I would have liked EVE Achaeology to be like.


For the love of Gods, please apply to work for CCP!
And please post it on the features & Ideas.
I will direct everyone that I know to support it!

Forward this to all CSM members!
Let´s start the revolution!!!
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#142 - 2013-05-29 11:58:21 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sorcha Lothain wrote:
I think the idea of making "loot pinata" a punishment for a failed hacking/archaeology attempt is an excellent idea. Having something blow up in your face is usually a bad thing. It seems really, really, odd as a reward. If you successfully hack the site you get everything in the can. If you fail you get "loot pinata" AND everything else that comes with a failed attempt (e.g. rats, explosive traps).

I guess from a pvp or loot ninja's perspective having the can explode with every success is a good thing.

Why should you have your cake and eat it too?
Loot piñata as a failure mechinac defeats the purpose of the mini game and any player skill/luck in exploration and will only glorify blobing in even more areas of the game.


As opposed to what, forcing blobbing jsut to make sure you do get all the good loot like every other dang profession in the game? Not to mention boring the f*** out of your friends? You might as well be mining.

No, if you fail you fail, loot destroyed just like current, just no loot piñata for a win.
That's what I think at least.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

CCP Bayesian
#143 - 2013-05-29 12:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Bayesian
Naomi Hale wrote:
Could we get a practise hacking panel in the Captain's Quarters, no rewards, just maybe flicker the light or a message from station maintenance to 'stop doing that'. I'd like playing it as a game, like that strategy game that was shown for Incarna. (How do you add big puppy dog eyes to a forum post?)


Put it on the door access panel? Twisted

More seriously yes we can do that but won't for at least this first release. The Hacking system itself is entirely independent of the object being hacked so we can add hacking to literally anything in EVE. Although we should make the mechanic deeper first.

I also like the idea for Archaeology.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Rytell Tybat
Doomheim
#144 - 2013-05-29 12:03:45 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:
In response to my earlier post, this is more what I would have liked Archaeology to be like...

You discover something and scan it

Which leads to...

Using science and industry skills to study it and narrow down other linked sites

so you...

Fly there and discover more clues

which then goes to...

More exploration of New Eden's history, landmarks and scenic vistas

and so on and so on, until...

The resulting data and notes from your search are turned into interested factions, thus leading to rewards, standing, knowledge and a feeling of accomplishment

Added future features...

Incarna lab to study discoveries

and...

Cartography room to view results and plan your next move.

(Thanks to CCP, Bioware, Square-Enix and Relic for some of the art)

Not suggesting you change the existing idea or implement this, just saying, in an ideal world, this is what I would have liked EVE Achaeology to be like.



Great ideas! Depth and a bit of mystery all tied into the lore? This really puts CCP's version of archeology to shame. Would love to see something like this in-game.
Naomi Hale
#145 - 2013-05-29 12:17:58 UTC
Castelo Selva wrote:
For the love of Gods, please apply to work for CCP!
And please post it on the features & Ideas.
I will direct everyone that I know to support it!

Forward this to all CSM members!
Let´s start the revolution!!!

F&I Re-post

Like I said, it's how I'd like it to be in an ideal world, but I think feasibility and practicality stop something like it being made. I'm also unsure the idea could be justified over already present features needing attention. Fleshing out the likes of PI, Epic Missions, EVE Lore, Incarna and the new hacking feature would however lead to something like my idea being more realistic. So we need to be patient.

I'm not an expert on the system, but I think a scrum based development model stops some of the more widespread features and ideas from being added or made in EVE as the small teams are tightly focused on their goals (not a bad thing). That said, CCP Seagull did give the impression of a more cross team communication and collaboration of goals and a more epic scope for EVE's future, so it's looking good.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Naomi Hale
#146 - 2013-05-29 12:26:46 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Naomi Hale wrote:
Could we get a practise hacking panel in the Captain's Quarters, no rewards, just maybe flicker the light or a message from station maintenance to 'stop doing that'. I'd like playing it as a game, like that strategy game that was shown for Incarna. (How do you add big puppy dog eyes to a forum post?)


Put it on the door access panel? Twisted

More seriously yes we can do that but won't for at least this first release. The Hacking system itself is entirely independent of the object being hacked so we can add hacking to literally anything in EVE. Although we should make the mechanic deeper first.

I also like the idea for Archaeology.

The door panel would indeed be cruel, especially if you successfully hacked it and it then said "well done!... I'm still not gonna open though."

Good to know hacking is flexible in where it can be placed. The possibilities for the future hehehe Big smile

And thanks.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Seth Asthereun
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#147 - 2013-05-29 12:43:45 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:
In response to my earlier post, this is more what I would have liked Archaeology to be like...

You discover something and scan it

Which leads to...

Using science and industry skills to study it and narrow down other linked sites

so you...

Fly there and discover more clues

which then goes to...

More exploration of New Eden's history, landmarks and scenic vistas

and so on and so on, until...

The resulting data and notes from your search are turned into interested factions, thus leading to rewards, standing, knowledge and a feeling of accomplishment

Added future features...

Incarna lab to study discoveries

and...

Cartography room to view results and plan your next move.

(Thanks to CCP, Bioware, Square-Enix and Relic for some of the art)

Not suggesting you change the existing idea or implement this, just saying, in an ideal world, this is what I would have liked EVE Achaeology to be like.


This for archeology. Really you should hire him/her

But i'd like an improvement in the hacking site part: beacuse you can increase the depth of the minigame but the MAIN PROBLEM will remain. All the site will be basically the same just a bit harder with a different could colour but the same.

I know that goes against your aim to remove combat from those site, but imho it will make them more different and entertaining.

Seth Asthereun wrote:
why do not add some variety to different sites? Not al sites must have that ugly pinata.
You can leave high sec site without npc, but i don't think removing combat ships for low and 0.0 is a good idea.

You can add sites were turrets activates when you encounter a firewall: you can choose to go on and ignore them, to destroy them or to suppress the firewall deactivating them. First firewall spawn only damage turrets, second firewall damage + web, third damage + neut.

Or sites where hacking allows you to shot a structure for a while (similar to the incursion vg) and the loot is in the structure. So you can hack less and bring more dps, or hack more and bring less dps (they remain soloable) but having only a set of hackable sites forces you to destroy the structure before you run out of them.

You can have an hacking site where succesful hacking send a fake signal that lure and enemy overseer that drops the loot.

A data site where there are 4 cans to analize, each can except the last one when hacked release a cloud that does for example 300 dps of a type of damage (sansha space em) so after the first can you take 300 dps, the second 600 dps, that is still easy tankable, but after the third it become 900 dps and you have to choose if hack the last can fast, or bring a more tanked ship.

Those are only the first things that have come to my mind, but you can add a lot more variety.

In the current state those site are very boring more than

sorry for my english, i really hope ccp reads this


Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#148 - 2013-05-29 12:46:10 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:
Castelo Selva wrote:
For the love of Gods, please apply to work for CCP!
And please post it on the features & Ideas.
I will direct everyone that I know to support it!

Forward this to all CSM members!
Let´s start the revolution!!!

F&I Re-post

Like I said, it's how I'd like it to be in an ideal world, but I think feasibility and practicality stop something like it being made. I'm also unsure the idea could be justified over already present features needing attention. Fleshing out the likes of PI, Epic Missions, EVE Lore, Incarna and the new hacking feature would however lead to something like my idea being more realistic. So we need to be patient.

I'm not an expert on the system, but I think a scrum based development model stops some of the more widespread features and ideas from being added or made in EVE as the small teams are tightly focused on their goals (not a bad thing). That said, CCP Seagull did give the impression of a more cross team communication and collaboration of goals and a more epic scope for EVE's future, so it's looking good.


Stop shooting yourself in the foot. WoW was able to so a heavily simplified iteration of what you suggest as a minigame. CCP could ery well do the same. The features are not that integrated into anything except Incarna, and that'd mostly be an art department thing. The rest would be an almost entirely detached player-unique system like WoW did, which would allow for the first individualized resource in EVE. Once it's up you can then start adding stuff from epic arcs and whatnot into it. As much as I hate how WoW turned out, there is no reason not to steal what I think is one of the few redeeming aspects of it and puttign an EVE twist on it.

TL;DR - From a programming standpoint, making a workable prototype of this shouldn't be hard at all.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#149 - 2013-05-29 12:48:23 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Naomi Hale wrote:
Could we get a practise hacking panel in the Captain's Quarters, no rewards, just maybe flicker the light or a message from station maintenance to 'stop doing that'. I'd like playing it as a game, like that strategy game that was shown for Incarna. (How do you add big puppy dog eyes to a forum post?)


Put it on the door access panel? Twisted

More seriously yes we can do that but won't for at least this first release. The Hacking system itself is entirely independent of the object being hacked so we can add hacking to literally anything in EVE. Although we should make the mechanic deeper first.

I also like the idea for Archaeology.

The door panel would indeed be cruel, especially if you successfully hacked it and it then said "well done!... I'm still not gonna open though."

Good to know hacking is flexible in where it can be placed. The possibilities for the future hehehe Big smile

And thanks.


Worse, have the door open to ANOTHER door with a fixed IMPOSSIBRU setting with supressors almost every node.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#150 - 2013-05-29 13:03:46 UTC
Sharing with you the awesome abomination that i used to run null sec sites last night:

http://i.imgur.com/zzsBLLI.jpg

That's the future of exploration right there. A new ship for a new generation.
Naomi Hale
#151 - 2013-05-29 13:09:30 UTC
One of the ideas I had for Archaeology was a new skill, 'Iconography', used for studying cultural objects you discovered.

I'm thinking it (or something similar) could be repurposed for the hacking game. Allowing you to decipher markings and obscure languages on the hulls of hacking and relic objects, as I imagine spaceships and stations have labels for access panels and data terminals, indicating their function. Increasing levels of the skill could provide hints to possible locations of defences, cores and utilities found during hacking. Each level adds a one node radius to detection of active nodes but not what type it is...

This could add that layer of strategy some people have wanted.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Naomi Hale
#152 - 2013-05-29 13:11:32 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Sharing with you the awesome abomination that i used to run null sec sites last night:

http://i.imgur.com/zzsBLLI.jpg

That's the future of exploration right there. A new ship for a new generation.


How'd you get a Covert-Op cloak on a Noctis? Aren't they limited to covert ships?

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#153 - 2013-05-29 13:13:27 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:

How'd you get a Covert-Op cloak on a Noctis? Aren't they limited to covert ships?


It's a Tengu. That's just the name of the fit Blink
Naomi Hale
#154 - 2013-05-29 13:16:42 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Naomi Hale wrote:

How'd you get a Covert-Op cloak on a Noctis? Aren't they limited to covert ships?


It's a Tengu. That's just the name of the fit Blink


Ah, I see it now... oopsOops

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#155 - 2013-05-29 13:30:25 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Sharing with you the awesome abomination that i used to run null sec sites last night:

http://i.imgur.com/zzsBLLI.jpg

That's the future of exploration right there. A new ship for a new generation.


The fit whispered to me last night: ''Kill me, it hurts to liiiiiive''

Honestly, if you have to use a T3 for this, have CCP give us a T2 Noctis with an AoE vacuum tractor.

Kudos for making it work, though. I'm running a similar fit on a Stabber, but now my ''low'' hacking skills cause me to give up on nullsec sites.
Tryaha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-05-29 13:31:15 UTC
Kahns wrote:

Sure...


  • It's really unresponsive. There's no feedback for when you've got one locked up and it will tractor, when it ends, when you've failed because the item is out of range. And it's all very slow, from the tractoring, to getting to groups of cans in even a fast ship, etc. I feel like when I wind up not tractoring a can I have no idea why it's not working or what I need to do to fix the situation. Again, feedback.
  • We do not have direct control of our ships, so don't expect it from us! Moving towards floating cans that you can't select in the overview highlights some of the worst parts of how Eve's ship control mechanics work. It was already frustrating to nimbly move our ships around in Eve, we just typically didn't have to do it. As you know, we don't have direct control of our ships, but in this case you're basically asking us to pretend we do.
  • This ties into the first two points, but 9/10 times I don't feel like I lost loot because of something I did... I lost loot because I got stuck on something, the interface broke in some weird way, or my cargo was full because I picked up something massive and now I don't get to pick up anything more until it all disappears.
  • It's completely inconsistent with the metaphors you've used elsewhere in the game. Clicking on something doesn't bring something towards you anywhere but in this one single little mini-game. Worse yet, you've got the metaphor of tractoring using a module elsewhere in the game and it works completely differently. It's just bad design!
  • I'm still encountering situations where the loot shoots into a structure and I can't get it, or spews the opposite of where I am and if I double click on the loot I just... navigate into the wall. It sucks.


Again, if you simply removed having to move your ship around and made the items disappear after a certain amount of time, so it was really just grabbing as much loot as you could whack a mole style, it would still be whole-ly inconsistent and out of some Facebook game, but at least it wouldn't seem broken and frusterating and it would far more be in line with what you advertised at Fanfest.


Please listen to this man.

I like the hacking minigame, why not just keep the sites as they are on TQ atm (with rats!) and just "secure" the cans with the hacking minigame, there should be no reason to put the loot pinata in.

If you want the loot pinata, just put it on the cans as punishment for a failed attempt (and make them fly out faster)

If it goes live as it currently is, i'm sure there will be alot of unhappy explorers and knowing CCP, things won't get fixed that quick.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#157 - 2013-05-29 13:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Naomi Hale wrote:
One of the ideas I had for Archaeology was a new skill, 'Iconography', used for studying cultural objects you discovered.

I'm thinking it (or something similar) could be repurposed for the hacking game. Allowing you to decipher markings and obscure languages on the hulls of hacking and relic objects, as I imagine spaceships and stations have labels for access panels and data terminals, indicating their function. Increasing levels of the skill could provide hints to possible locations of defences, cores and utilities found during hacking. Each level adds a one node radius to detection of active nodes but not what type it is...

This could add that layer of strategy some people have wanted.


I was thinking of a minesweeper-like warning system, but that seems fun.

Have them be random symbols but have an arrow point towards the system core or the nearest bonus if you successfully use a relevant analyzer-derived clue chip. (have them be of varying accuracy, like a Sansha guest pass (highsec) point you towards the nearest bad node, a Sansha password (lowsec) point you towards the nearest bonus and a Sansha root password (nullsec) point you to the system core. Now you have the option of using those or harvesting and selling them. Would also force people to traffic between high low and nullsec wih their exploration.

EDIT: In hindsight, have the clues be generated through archeology and change the arch mechanics acoordingly. Would be fun having the two professions interact without literally sharing a minigame as it stands now.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#158 - 2013-05-29 13:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Scuzzy Logic wrote:

The fit whispered to me last night: ''Kill me, it hurts to liiiiiive''


Pretty much what all the new fits that i come up with scream. Anything that helps with survivability is gonna compromise the hacking and loot amount. The containers being directly at or close to warp in point doesn't help either. You're pretty much a fly waiting to get squashed. So might as well go full on risk and hope the higher loot amount sets of the unavoidable losses.

Not gonna fly this 400m piece of art into nullsec on TQ tho if the loots stays as poor as it is. At the current rates i would have to run, survive and safely haul back about 8 sites to break even.

Btw tractor beams really are the icing on the cake in terms of twitch gameplay but it defo helps.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#159 - 2013-05-29 13:52:23 UTC
Naomi Hale wrote:
Castelo Selva wrote:
For the love of Gods, please apply to work for CCP!
And please post it on the features & Ideas.
I will direct everyone that I know to support it!

Forward this to all CSM members!
Let´s start the revolution!!!

F&I Re-post

Like I said, it's how I'd like it to be in an ideal world, but I think feasibility and practicality stop something like it being made. I'm also unsure the idea could be justified over already present features needing attention. Fleshing out the likes of PI, Epic Missions, EVE Lore, Incarna and the new hacking feature would however lead to something like my idea being more realistic. So we need to be patient.

I'm not an expert on the system, but I think a scrum based development model stops some of the more widespread features and ideas from being added or made in EVE as the small teams are tightly focused on their goals (not a bad thing). That said, CCP Seagull did give the impression of a more cross team communication and collaboration of goals and a more epic scope for EVE's future, so it's looking good.


I absolutely love your proposal there - it's close to what I was hoping for when I took up exploring. Cool


What I do know for now is that I won't be training Hacking or Archaeology to V as I had intended as, regardless of how much fun the mini-game is, I stand no chance of collecting anything worth a damn from the cans (I'm developing arthritis and I usually play EVE on an 11" laptop, yes I have a good graphics card and a decent gaming mouse) given my test runs on SiSi.

Current results - data sites take a little longer to complete than TQ radar sites (so slightly higher exposure risk) with vastly reduced income.

No, I will not be configuring my ship to optimise its can-grabbing as swapping ships for a data site will likely mean someone else will have taken it by the time I get there.
CCP Prime
C C P
C C P Alliance
#160 - 2013-05-29 14:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Prime
So for the scattering mechanism we've reduced the speed that the cans eject out at.
It'll make chasing them almost unneeded.
Crimewatch will now apply to the cans like as with any other loot.
The mini container names will actually hint at what you can get from them (currently on SiSi it is a completely random association.) This will help deciding on what loot you are actually going for.

Also, a few bugs, like the one when the bracket disappears for a container that had started to blink, has been fixed.

We want to iterate on tying hacking success to the scattering, and hopefully we'll be able to do so in a point release.

Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 ...