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Another plot to blast pilots out of high sec.

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Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#21 - 2013-05-29 00:56:34 UTC
Errr... nobody ever accused me of being the smart one on CSM8. Hell, if I had a dime for every time someone told me I had failed, I'd have many many dimes. So you'll forgive me for asking this, but how exactly is your play style being nerfed by Odyssey?

Ore will still be in belts, ice will still be in predictable systems where you can warp to a thing that basically says "ice belt", missions are unchanged in this patch so far as I can tell. Hell, if anything, Odyssey is a buff to your play style because a lot of people who would normally be competing with you will instead be trying out the new exploration sites and going for new types of loot.

So you are affected... how? Exactly?

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
dark heartt
#22 - 2013-05-29 01:14:41 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Errr... nobody ever accused me of being the smart one on CSM8. Hell, if I had a dime for every time someone told me I had failed, I'd have many many dimes. So you'll forgive me for asking this, but how exactly is your play style being nerfed by Odyssey?

Ore will still be in belts, ice will still be in predictable systems where you can warp to a thing that basically says "ice belt", missions are unchanged in this patch so far as I can tell. Hell, if anything, Odyssey is a buff to your play style because a lot of people who would normally be competing with you will instead be trying out the new exploration sites and going for new types of loot.

So you are affected... how? Exactly?


B-b-b-but Tags4Sec Ripard. The gankers can gank him more now! It's bad don't you see? It's a threat to his play style!

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#23 - 2013-05-29 05:26:45 UTC
Hm, good point. Where did I leave that locator agent? OP, where did you say you mine again?

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
BYRAN BRASSBALLS
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-05-29 06:43:07 UTC
[quote=Trebor Daehdoow]While I understand the OP's concerns, I feel that his fears are exaggerated. That said, I and others on the CSM, including some of the contributors to this thread, will be making sure that CCP is keeping an eye out for unexpected consequences in the months following the deployment of Odyssey.

I would appreciate it if you would post a followup in 6 weeks or so regarding the actual effects that Odyssey has on your gameplay.

I will honest. I hope I am wrong on this. Sometimes suprises happen when you least expect them.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#25 - 2013-05-29 08:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
OP, are you upset that hidden belts can now be found without probing? Or is there something else I am missing in terms of what will be in the no longer hidden belts? One concern I have is that with the changes to low ends in 0.0, the high end supply to HS will reduce. Anyway I digress, I think the change is that those infantile gank bears can warp into the used to be hidden belts without having to probe him down, before he could mine without having to deal with these people by a bit more effort on his part, yeah I understand his irritattion, but there are always mission belts.

In terms of the ice changes I think that was more aimed at reducing Super/Titan power projection, though like a number of people I am a bit worried about the lack of Liquid Ozone in HS, can someone please look at that!!!

If this is aimed at pushing HS people to LS and 0.0 it will fail, the OP is an example of someone who has tried 0.0 sov space and found being at the whim of a load of spergelords is about as much fun as being at work, I cannot argue with him there, he wants to play the game how he wants to play it and gets annoyed at all these people who want to push people in HS into LS and 0.0 so they can be cannon fodder, those people are especially vocal and high profile, I can see his point, the game is supposed to be a sandbox and CCP needs to be aware that there are a lot of players that will not go to 0.0 to be shot at no matter what and who like to play on their own without the drama that other players can bring.

Trebor Daehdoow, you were the only one that posted reasonably to the OP, you have my respect sir.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-05-29 08:25:27 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


If this is aimed at pushing HS people to LS and 0.0 it will fail, the OP is an example of someone who has tried 0.0 sov space and found being at the whim of a load of spergelords is about as much fun as being at work, I cannot argue with him there, he wants to play the game how he wants to play it and gets annoyed at all these people who want to push people in HS into LS and 0.0...


You and he are both operating under a fundamental misapprehension: that anyone in 0.0 wants you there. They don't.

Can you even explain why you think there is some devious plot to "force" you into null space? You don't think that the people who already own it might prefer to exploit the finite resources in it themselves? Are you under the misapprehension that 0.0 alliances are simply incapable of rising to the incredible challenge and complexity of mining?

Oh wait, let me guess, the tired old "you just want people to shoot at", right? Well here's the thing: we can already shoot at you if we want to. We know where you are (locator agents are a thing), we know how to shoot you, and sec penalties are meaningless when we go back to 0.0.

That's leaving aside that there is actually quite a lot of spaceboatviolence happening right here in 0.0 at the moment.

I say nothing of the irony of you calling 0.0 people "spergelords" when replying to the OP.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#27 - 2013-05-29 08:51:53 UTC
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0, and some people may see the ice belts being nerfed in HS as doing that, I don't however as I said I think that is more aimed at Super/Titan power projection. As I have operated in 0.0 I know that people in 0.0 will use those resources and I think its a good thing. Take incursions there was a lot of people using them to build up ISK to be able to get into 0.0 again, but the comments about the income being greater than 0.0 income kept on coming until it was nerfed, oh well!!

You miss his point, before he could go to the extra effort of probing down hidden ore belts which gave him added protection against gankers, now that is gone, I understand his frustration.

No irony intended, you only have to read the posts by many of these leaders on a website with a name starting with K to see that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2013-05-29 08:56:26 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0

The people posting those rants and raves are the carebears themselves. I can't remember the last time I've seen a "we should force highsec players out to 0.0" post but I can think of many, many "Someone will force me out of highsec and into 0.0" posts. Including this one.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#29 - 2013-05-29 09:07:10 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0

The people posting those rants and raves are the carebears themselves. I can't remember the last time I've seen a "we should force highsec players out to 0.0" post but I can think of many, many "Someone will force me out of highsec and into 0.0" posts. Including this one.


Sorry, but I have seen a lot of posts by people complaining about all those people staying in HS, though I do agree there are a lot of posts by people complaining about changes that are designed to push them into 0.0, by the way did you notice that I used the word "IF".

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-05-29 09:07:27 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0,


Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#31 - 2013-05-29 09:17:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0,


Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.


Its quite easy, go to any thread started by a carebear moaning about potential nerfs to HS and you will find them, the incursion nerfing threads where people quite rightly complained about certain aspects of pre-nerf incurions were also full of those posts, got annoying having to wade through them. Have you noticed that I said posts rather than threads?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-05-29 10:49:40 UTC
You're the one making the assertion that the issue exists, you're the one who has to prove it with evidence.

If it's so easy, then do it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#33 - 2013-05-29 11:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Malcanis wrote:
You're the one making the assertion that the issue exists, you're the one who has to prove it with evidence.

If it's so easy, then do it.


Trying to prove that there are a lot of mouthy people spleging on about those carebears in HS and nerfing their income, sometimes in subtle posts sometimes in direct ranting posts, easy enough to find, however most of which are posted by alts that are difficult to pin down as 0.0 dwellers, yeah right, that would be an exercise in futility, first of all to define an alt as a 0.0 dweller would be an issue in itself, nicely played I have to say ShockedTwisted but obvious!



Malcanis wrote:
Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-05-29 11:51:55 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0,


Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.


Its quite easy, go to any thread started by a carebear moaning about potential nerfs to HS and you will find them, the incursion nerfing threads where people quite rightly complained about certain aspects of pre-nerf incurions were also full of those posts, got annoying having to wade through them. Have you noticed that I said posts rather than threads?


Expressing the opinion that something has rewards that are too high in highsec is not the same as expressing the opinion that people should be forced into nullsec.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#35 - 2013-05-29 12:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
mynnna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0,


Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.


Its quite easy, go to any thread started by a carebear moaning about potential nerfs to HS and you will find them, the incursion nerfing threads where people quite rightly complained about certain aspects of pre-nerf incurions were also full of those posts, got annoying having to wade through them. Have you noticed that I said posts rather than threads?


Expressing the opinion that something has rewards that are too high in highsec is not the same as expressing the opinion that people should be forced into nullsec.


Rewards that are too high in High Sec, well that statement in itself is defining that rewards should be greater outside of High Sec where there is risk in other words. So the objective was to cut the rewards so that people would take the risk to get higher rewards, its subtle, or not so subtle.

Look I am not trying to screw with you guys, but I would suggest that the OP has a valid game play reason to be upset and I could understand him feeling like that, as I operate in 0.0 at times I take that risk, for example Malcanis I watched Sister Bliss on-ling SBU's in Initiative border systems last week. Do not over do it in removing the fun for people like the OP, that he was mining in sites that had to be probed showed that he was making his own sandbox, that box has been kicked away.

Edit: When I say removing the fun, I am not aiming at you, but wanting to make sure that CCP are careful not to alienate the type of player like the OP, because reducing their rate of progression makes them feel that they are being forced into 0.0, its perception, also I reacted because even though it was a rant on his part, he was actually complaining about a valid nerf to his game play, which I think was his use of hidden belts in HS to keep away from gank bears.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-05-29 13:05:45 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Rewards that are too high in High Sec, well that statement in itself is defining that rewards should be greater outside of High Sec where there is risk in other words. So the objective was to cut the rewards so that people would take the risk to get higher rewards, its subtle, or not so subtle.


Or the objective is to bring some semblance of balance back to things, with no thought or even care as to whether it would get people to move or not. I mean seriously, when CCP makes such moves, lets try not to ascribe the motivations of certain forum posters to them.

For example, one of the effects of introducing low end minerals to high end ores in nullsec will, presumably, be an increased supply overall. Taking that to its conclusion, one must assume that it would represent a drop in price in said low end minerals, which constitutes a nerf to highsec mining. Yet the objective is not to get highsec miners to move to nullsec, but to make nullsec mining a bit more attractive for those who already do mine there, or who mined there once upon a time and no longer do because it's not worth it.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-05-29 13:33:41 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well there are an awful lot of posts where people rant and rave about all those carebears in HS and they want to nerf HS to push people out to LS and 0.0,


Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.


Its quite easy, go to any thread started by a carebear moaning about potential nerfs to HS and you will find them, the incursion nerfing threads where people quite rightly complained about certain aspects of pre-nerf incurions were also full of those posts, got annoying having to wade through them. Have you noticed that I said posts rather than threads?


Expressing the opinion that something has rewards that are too high in highsec is not the same as expressing the opinion that people should be forced into nullsec.


Rewards that are too high in High Sec, well that statement in itself is defining that rewards should be greater outside of High Sec where there is risk in other words. So the objective was to cut the rewards so that people would take the risk to get higher rewards, its subtle, or not so subtle.

Look I am not trying to screw with you guys, but I would suggest that the OP has a valid game play reason to be upset and I could understand him feeling like that, as I operate in 0.0 at times I take that risk, for example Malcanis I watched Sister Bliss on-ling SBU's in Initiative border systems last week. Do not over do it in removing the fun for people like the OP, that he was mining in sites that had to be probed showed that he was making his own sandbox, that box has been kicked away.

Edit: When I say removing the fun, I am not aiming at you, but wanting to make sure that CCP are careful not to alienate the type of player like the OP, because reducing their rate of progression makes them feel that they are being forced into 0.0, its perception, also I reacted because even though it was a rant on his part, he was actually complaining about a valid nerf to his game play, which I think was his use of hidden belts in HS to keep away from gank bears.


Unfortunately it seems that many arguments like the OPs seem to reduce to "I'm only having fun if I'm getting at least 5 ISK per unit for Trit."

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#38 - 2013-05-29 13:35:49 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Rewards that are too high in High Sec, well that statement in itself is defining that rewards should be greater outside of High Sec where there is risk in other words. So the objective was to cut the rewards so that people would take the risk to get higher rewards, its subtle, or not so subtle.


Or the objective is to bring some semblance of balance back to things, with no thought or even care as to whether it would get people to move or not. I mean seriously, when CCP makes such moves, lets try not to ascribe the motivations of certain forum posters to them.

For example, one of the effects of introducing low end minerals to high end ores in nullsec will, presumably, be an increased supply overall. Taking that to its conclusion, one must assume that it would represent a drop in price in said low end minerals, which constitutes a nerf to highsec mining. Yet the objective is not to get highsec miners to move to nullsec, but to make nullsec mining a bit more attractive for those who already do mine there, or who mined there once upon a time and no longer do because it's not worth it.


I think that CCP's motivations on the ore changes are perfectly sound, I have been in corps that did industry in 0.0 and the low ends were a massive problem, but the knock on effect will be that high ends may not get exported in the same numbers to HS which of course is pressure for some to move to 0.0, but I would not say that was deliberate as such, but the likely outcome. While I also see the ice changes as more aimed at force projection, again slight pressure for a shift of industry to 0.0, but this will be people who used to operate in 0.0 or are industrial alts of 0.0 players that will head there, people who are HS orientated will stay in HS.

The nerf incusions threads were full of people who said that the rewards were out of kilter to 0.0, but in the end CCP over nerfed them, though later CCP did adjust that, I did wonder if the drum banging had that impact, I certainly do not think this for the ore or ice changes.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-05-29 13:41:07 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You're the one making the assertion that the issue exists, you're the one who has to prove it with evidence.

If it's so easy, then do it.


Trying to prove that there are a lot of mouthy people spleging on about those carebears in HS and nerfing their income, sometimes in subtle posts sometimes in direct ranting posts, easy enough to find, however most of which are posted by alts that are difficult to pin down as 0.0 dwellers, yeah right, that would be an exercise in futility, first of all to define an alt as a 0.0 dweller would be an issue in itself, nicely played I have to say ShockedTwisted but obvious!



Malcanis wrote:
Link me three made by people who actually live in 0.0 then.


Well you can hardly expect me to accept responsibility on behalf of the nullsec community for posts made by anonymous alts who could literally belong to anybody.

Seriously, you're fighting a forgotten battle. There is no movement to "push" people anywhere and hasnt been for a while, least of all one led by me. I am much more well known for advocating improving hi-sec.

It is absolutely inarguable that at the moment the situation for 0.0 vs hi-sec for all the productive professions is unbelievably imbalanced; mining, manufacturing, R&D, invention, trading... every single one of these is massively tilted towards hi-sec.

To the greatest extent possible I and the other CSMs will be arguing for improvements to 0.0 to redress this imbalance. But unless we advocate changes like people literally getting paid by CCP to produce things in 0.0, then it is inevitable that the free, perfectly efficient, invulnerable facilities in hi-sec maybe have to be nerfed in some way.

That's not about "forcing" people into 0.0. It's about recognising that for every profession that doesn't directly involve weapon skills, players are "forced" into hi-sec.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2013-05-29 13:42:00 UTC
I am locking this for ranting.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

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