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Should a tackled ship be able to self destruct?
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The Bear08
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-10-30 12:07:59 UTC
Cedo Nulli wrote:
OP is a sore loser it seems ...

The idea about no "self-destruct" on ships is absolutely foolish im afraid. Heck for what its worth it should even do AOE around the ship ... but that would just open too much griefing opportunities ^^


I'd like to say I'm not ranting, I'm just asking what the community thinks about self-destruct. My fellow alliance member Shaidar has already argued why we feel that it's a flawed mechanic but there are also some counter arguments so there is no right or wrong answer.

Being a PvP'er I do feel that killmails are important, and after all, they must be important if a freighter pilot feels the need to self destruct rather than taking a loss mail. Killmails are cool, they are a timeless record of a pilots success and failure and they are a reminder of fun fights and kills so I think it's good to ensure that losses are recorded.

Just my opinion.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#42 - 2011-10-30 16:57:36 UTC
Cedo Nulli wrote:
OP is a sore loser it seems ...

The idea about no "self-destruct" on ships is absolutely foolish im afraid. Heck for what its worth it should even do AOE around the ship ... but that would just open too much griefing opportunities ^^

Come back when you're posting on your main, and when you've read the thread properly. No one is requesting a complete abolishment of self destructs.

It's interesting that, judging by the killboards of those opposing (and let's be honest, everyone except the carebears are judged by their killboards) they either don't PvP or aren't very good at it.

The Bear08 wrote:
I'd like to say I'm not ranting, I'm just asking what the community thinks about self-destruct. My fellow alliance member Shaidar has already argued why we feel that it's a flawed mechanic but there are also some counter arguments so there is no right or wrong answer.

Being a PvP'er I do feel that killmails are important, and after all, they must be important if a freighter pilot feels the need to self destruct rather than taking a loss mail. Killmails are cool, they are a timeless record of a pilots success and failure and they are a reminder of fun fights and kills so I think it's good to ensure that losses are recorded.

Just my opinion.

Aye, I'll be honest, I'd use the self destruct feature to avoid a KM and I don't blame the freighter pilot for doing it. However I shouldn't be able to, killmails are an integral part of eve and they shouldn't be avoidable. At the very least self destruct timers should be longer than the average fleet battle.

Kill mails are an important method of working out whether or not you are a complete idiot that jumps Obelisks through gates in extremely dangerous systems unscouted. People that are that bad at this game shouldn't be able to hide it.

Also, I am ranting, but only because I haven't slept in ages thanks to that Charon earlier that kept logging off mid-warp. Leaving us less than a minute to scrape down his health before he vanished, only to repeat the slow process by logging back in and out again at multiple hour intervals. And before anyone calls me a sore loser, we still killed it, but the fact that we had to put up a 24/7 camp on that gate to do so is pretty lame.
Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-10-31 04:58:30 UTC
I self destructed a carrier of mine once for similar reasons.

I was out of my corps timezone, not enough people online and i knew the ones that were online wouldent be able to get organised to come help out in time. And, i was failfit repairing an Ihub.

I got a socket error towards the end, and couldent see the timer messages anyway due to being shot at by about 20 people.

I logged back in, i was in station, i check local.... lots of insults..... awesome!

I diddnt get a thread made in my honor about it tho :(


If the pilot decides to self destruct, then it is YOU who fails if you cannot kill them before they go kaboom.



IRL comparison of self destruct:

Repo men rock up in the middle of the night, you're baffeld at how they found you, as you're living on a mates property and have no mail etc sent to that address with you're name on it.

You act calm, you give the repo men the keys, play nice.

Request nicely if you can just get a few personal effects out of the car - play the sympathy card - say its the picture of you're wife/kids.

Wander off for two seconds while they open the car door for you.

Sprint at the car with a bottle of petrol in hand, empty contents into front of car, throw in a match and run away, laughing manicly as the car sets ablaze, while screaming "IF I CANT HAVE IT NEITHER CAN YOU *******!"

If you were silly enough to believe him, and let him grab the petrol, and just stood there watching while he pours the petrol in rather than pulling him away from the car and detaining him...... well.... guess he wins and repo looses, no?
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#44 - 2011-10-31 06:43:17 UTC
Cypermethren wrote:
If you were silly enough to believe him, and let him grab the petrol, and just stood there watching while he pours the petrol in rather than pulling him away from the car and detaining him...... well.... guess he wins and repo looses, no?


Shaidar Hussan wrote:
If you think focusing on the freighter, and sacrificing a T3 to the escort, was the correct course of action then quite simply you need to lrn2pvp.

(...)

The truth is this is a questionable mechanic, fights rarely last less than two minutes and killmails are an integral part of eve. It isn't just about single pilots "epeens", it was just a freighter, it didn't even have anything in it. The point is KMs are used to judge alliance's performance, and individual pilot's competence.

Idiots who jump stuff like freighters through gates unscouted shouldn't be able to avoid KMs by blowing themselves up.


Shaidar Hussan wrote:

It's interesting that, judging by the killboards of those opposing (and let's be honest, everyone except the carebears are judged by their killboards) they either don't PvP or aren't very good at it.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Cypermethren
Lambeau Field
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2011-10-31 14:54:13 UTC
I would like to see a change to the self-destruct option giving more time needed based on ship size and or all active modules go offline as soon as you start the self-destruct sequence.
Kira Deschain
Arcane Odyssey
Electus Matari
#46 - 2011-10-31 17:42:34 UTC
Cypermethren wrote:

IRL comparison of self destruct:

Repo men rock up in the middle of the night, you're baffeld at how they found you, as you're living on a mates property and have no mail etc sent to that address with you're name on it.

You act calm, you give the repo men the keys, play nice.

Request nicely if you can just get a few personal effects out of the car - play the sympathy card - say its the picture of you're wife/kids.

Wander off for two seconds while they open the car door for you.

Sprint at the car with a bottle of petrol in hand, empty contents into front of car, throw in a match and run away, laughing manicly as the car sets ablaze, while screaming "IF I CANT HAVE IT NEITHER CAN YOU *******!"

If you were silly enough to believe him, and let him grab the petrol, and just stood there watching while he pours the petrol in rather than pulling him away from the car and detaining him...... well.... guess he wins and repo looses, no?



This is actually a very bad example. The only reason your car gets repossessed is because you still owe money on it and are behind on payments. This happened on the show RepoMen once and the former owner of said now burnt out vehicle was sued successfully for the value of the vehicle and I think he was even charged with criminal destruction of property. If EVE used this logic then SDing your ship would COST YOU money. But this would also imply that you could buy ships on credit in EVE, which of course you cannot do.

Anyway, the OP sounded a lot like pirate-tears, which are the sweetest. But speaking solely about SD, I think it is working as intended. Disabling a ships warp drive only locks the pilot out of warp, not guns, prop mods, etc. etc.. Logically it might depend on how self-destruct is imagined to work. Is it all electronic? i.e. starting a routine/program which will overload the engines after 2 minutes, etc. Or is it manual? i.e. the pilot/crew rigs the ammo/fuel with explosives with a 2 min timer. If the former than I could see how a module might be able to affect that; if the latter than there is nothing you can do externally to stop or prevent it.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#47 - 2011-10-31 18:35:04 UTC
Kira Deschain wrote:
This is actually a very bad example. The only reason your car gets repossessed is because you still owe money on it and are behind on payments. This happened on the show RepoMen once and the former owner of said now burnt out vehicle was sued successfully for the value of the vehicle and I think he was even charged with criminal destruction of property. If EVE used this logic then SDing your ship would COST YOU money. But this would also imply that you could buy ships on credit in EVE, which of course you cannot do.

Anyway, the OP sounded a lot like pirate-tears, which are the sweetest. But speaking solely about SD, I think it is working as intended. Disabling a ships warp drive only locks the pilot out of warp, not guns, prop mods, etc. etc.. Logically it might depend on how self-destruct is imagined to work. Is it all electronic? i.e. starting a routine/program which will overload the engines after 2 minutes, etc. Or is it manual? i.e. the pilot/crew rigs the ammo/fuel with explosives with a 2 min timer. If the former than I could see how a module might be able to affect that; if the latter than there is nothing you can do externally to stop or prevent it.

Shaidar Hussan wrote:

It's interesting that, judging by the killboards of those opposing (and let's be honest, everyone except the carebears are judged by their killboards) they either don't PvP or aren't very good at it.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kira+Deschain#kills

Why is warfare and tactics full of carebears?
Kira Deschain
Arcane Odyssey
Electus Matari
#48 - 2011-10-31 20:11:48 UTC
Shaidar Hussan wrote:
Why is warfare and tactics full of carebears?


Because we like to make sure that pirates don't get unfair advantages? I definitely see why you guys don't like self-destruct but simply getting rid of it wouldn't make sense and neither would the ability to block it unless CCP clearly defines how self-destruct works. From what I have seen, CCP doesn't make it a habit to clearly define game mechanics like self-destruct.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#49 - 2011-10-31 20:58:54 UTC
i have to side with the "self destructing is a way to hide your mistakes", i mean - you're dead, i caused it. i'm still happy. the loss of a killmail doesn't really bother me. but i do find it to be a cowardly way to hide your mistakes

i think if you're under attack by players at the time you SD then the SD should generate a killmail. you would show up on the killmail with "Damage: Self Destruct", and everyone else would show up with the damage they actually did.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Ragnarok Knight
ROGUE - DRONES
#50 - 2011-10-31 21:13:58 UTC
I have a simple solution. I am not sure how easy it would be to program but here goes.

The bigger the ship, the longer it takes to self destruct. That way the gameplay of '' oh im ****** im going to suicide and deprive my enemy the satisfaction of a kill '' is still part of the game....but it is properly balanced.

right now things too big have too easy a way out
and things to small would never use it.

that is simply unbalanced gameplay, but gameplay that should not be removed none-the-less.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#51 - 2011-11-02 03:35:15 UTC
Kira Deschain wrote:
Shaidar Hussan wrote:
Why is warfare and tactics full of carebears?


Because we like to make sure that pirates don't get unfair advantages? I definitely see why you guys don't like self-destruct but simply getting rid of it wouldn't make sense and neither would the ability to block it unless CCP clearly defines how self-destruct works. From what I have seen, CCP doesn't make it a habit to clearly define game mechanics like self-destruct.

Damn, no unfair advantages? And I was just about to suggest PvE ships get their align times tripled too :D

But yeah, you're right, CCP rarely discuss the logic behind certain mechanics. I just think having a SD destruct timer that is 1/3rd the length of the average fight is pretty lame :D

I actually think it's still an interesting mechanic, even the aspect of "denying your opponents the kill", however if that was their intent with the SD function the timer should be an appropriate length. AND it should generate a publicly viewable lossmail for the toon that used it, even if the attackers aren't on it, just so that people know they did something stupid and had to SD.

Ragnarok Knight wrote:
I have a simple solution. I am not sure how easy it would be to program but here goes.

The bigger the ship, the longer it takes to self destruct. That way the gameplay of '' oh im ****** im going to suicide and deprive my enemy the satisfaction of a kill '' is still part of the game....but it is properly balanced.

right now things too big have too easy a way out
and things to small would never use it.

that is simply unbalanced gameplay, but gameplay that should not be removed none-the-less.

That would seem like a pretty sensible solution, and I agree that SD should never be removed entirely. Otherwise it would inevitably lead to people being held in space indefinitely as a way of forcing them to jump out of their ship :D

*And while I do salivate at the idea of stealing myself some ships this way, I can understand why it may not be fun for the victim :P
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-11-02 14:48:02 UTC
Shaidar Hussan wrote:

Shaidar Hussan wrote:

It's interesting that, judging by the killboards of those opposing (and let's be honest, everyone except the carebears are judged by their killboards) they either don't PvP or aren't very good at it.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kira+Deschain#kills

Why is warfare and tactics full of carebears?

maybe because pvp-ers aren't supposed to be able to read and write?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-11-02 14:58:21 UTC
Ragnarok Knight wrote:

The bigger the ship, the longer it takes to self destruct. That way the gameplay of '' oh im ****** im going to suicide and deprive my enemy the satisfaction of a kill '' is still part of the game....but it is properly balanced.

this is only 1 side. Other side is: how can it be possible to small ship (even n00b ship) can disrupt electronics and engines of a ship 100000x times bigger? Is it any real?

I would speak about sizes if any aspect of Eve is adjusted to size. But warp scramblers and disruptors don't work this way.

From RL: take a small 1.5V battery and try to do anything with power-network of your town. You can try anything but you will not disrupt it until you get into MAIN REACTOR and blow it from inside Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#54 - 2011-11-02 16:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
March rabbit wrote:
how can it be possible to small ship (even n00b ship) can disrupt electronics and engines of a ship 100000x times bigger?


On the subject of warp disruption, it's a very specific thing you're doing preventing them from forming the field necessary to travel faster than light. I'm assuming that would be some sort of "bubble", a field surrounding the ship that allows it to move through space. Bubbles are vulnerable to even very small holes.

I might agree that stasis webifiers seem a little bit out of proportion when a frigate can slow down a battleship the same as another frigate. I wouldn't object to webs coming in small/medium/large sizes, with effects similar to those of afterburners where a large web is effective on all ships, and smalls have diminishing returns the larger a ship gets.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Cunane Jeran
#55 - 2011-11-02 16:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cunane Jeran
Cedo Nulli wrote:
OP is a sore loser it seems ...

The idea about no "self-destruct" on ships is absolutely foolish im afraid. Heck for what its worth it should even do AOE around the ship ... but that would just open too much griefing opportunities ^^


The Jita 4-4 undock would be glorious.
shal ri
Konigreich Preuben
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres.
#56 - 2011-11-02 18:21:23 UTC
just an idea that may be interesting. lets say u tackle a ship ( we'll go with a cap ship as they are they most likely to SD) and u begin to rip him a new ashole. the said ship now sees hes goin to die and put the SD on to keep from giving the killmail. the timer counts down and u now have him in hull. at this point u have done a **** ton of damage to his ship.

now his ship can no longer SD due to the fact that ship is so damaged that it is unable to proform the action of a SD.he dies killmail is given and all but the sad carebear cap ship that was rattin in a site is happy.

ofc ccp wont do this because its to hard for them to think of and it makes thier heads hurt when they try. so they will most likely go for the easier fix and give the killmails to those that were shooting at the said ship at the time of SD.
Bernard Schuyler
Thundererz
#57 - 2011-11-02 18:56:45 UTC
Seems simple to me...

Is griefing legal? As long as that answer is "yes" that means that even PvPers can be griefed by the occassional SD denying them a KM Roll
Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
#58 - 2011-11-02 22:10:44 UTC
Bernard Schuyler wrote:
Seems simple to me...

Is griefing legal? As long as that answer is "yes" that means that even PvPers can be griefed by the occassional SD denying them a KM Roll


Biggest laugh for me is how all these PvP types laugh at the tear of carebears when they get ganked in high sec. The response is "It's part of the game, if you don't like it, don't play". It's game mechanics and CCP designed it that way. That is a very fair and very valid point. I never argue against it.

Self desctruct is part of the game and if you don't like it, don't play. Let's all keep that in mind folks. Kill mail is for getting a kill. You want a little award for almost killing someone that used game mechanics to 'escape'? (By escape, in this case I mean escape being blown up by you?) Tough potatoes kids. Gotta suck it up to play in the bigs. Real Live is never about fair and fortunately neither is Eve. Welcome to the sand box.

Now excuse me while I go kill some more threatening rocks in space...Lol


I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Brom MkLeith
Epsilon Inc
#59 - 2011-11-02 23:28:12 UTC
The Bear08 wrote:
Good evening,

I am asking this question having just tackled a White Noise Obelisk on a lowsec gate. It had a Vaga and a Tengu escorting it and there were 4 of us so we took the gateguns and engaged the Vaga whilst pointing the freighter. Once the Vaga was down we turned our efforts to the Obelisk since the Tengu was doing pitiful DPS. I didn't actually see the self destruct message pop up but the pilot must have initiated it almost as soon as he was tackled him. Needless to say, he self destructed whilst in low structure X

I feel that if a ship is tackled, it should not be able to initiate the self destruct procedure. I am aware that there would have to be a slight change in mechanics in order to stop griefer's holding down ships for indefinite periods of time.As it is now, if the pilot wishes to escape then they can eject and warp.
Perhaps having a self destruct mechanism on capsule's only would be a possible solution.

What do you think?


Yes, any pilot who wishes to self destruct should be allowed to do so at any time. Think about the realism of denying that. You think your little tackle frig is going to disable all of the electrical systems on an Obelisk? Not bloody likely.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#60 - 2011-11-03 02:12:27 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
From RL: take a small 1.5V battery and try to do anything with power-network of your town. You can try anything but you will not disrupt it until you get into MAIN REACTOR and blow it from inside Lol

From RL: Try moving faster than the speed of light Big smile

Fortunately EvE isn't based around RL logic, it's based on game mechanics.

Anvil44 wrote:
Bernard Schuyler wrote:
Seems simple to me...

Is griefing legal? As long as that answer is "yes" that means that even PvPers can be griefed by the occassional SD denying them a KM Roll


Biggest laugh for me is how all these PvP types laugh at the tear of carebears when they get ganked in high sec. The response is "It's part of the game, if you don't like it, don't play". It's game mechanics and CCP designed it that way. That is a very fair and very valid point. I never argue against it.

Self desctruct is part of the game and if you don't like it, don't play. Let's all keep that in mind folks. Kill mail is for getting a kill. You want a little award for almost killing someone that used game mechanics to 'escape'? (By escape, in this case I mean escape being blown up by you?) Tough potatoes kids. Gotta suck it up to play in the bigs. Real Live is never about fair and fortunately neither is Eve. Welcome to the sand box.

Now excuse me while I go kill some more threatening rocks in space...Lol

Welcome to the sand box lol, melodrama much? But yeah, you want to come out to low-sec, be prepared to lose a few ships if you don't bother scouting. People shouldn't be able to avoid that with a self destruct timer that is considerably shorter than your average fight.

I've already said I don't particularly care if it denies the attackers the kill, but there should be some kind of accessible record of ships a player has self destructed. People shouldn't be able to hide their stupidity that easily in this game.

Also, yet another PvE toon? Or an alt? I'm honestly quite surprised by the number of PvE toons on the warfare and tactics forums, there have only been one or two other PvP toons so far. Is everyone just posting on their Alts or what?

Brom MkLeith wrote:
Yes, any pilot who wishes to self destruct should be allowed to do so at any time. Think about the realism of denying that. You think your little tackle frig is going to disable all of the electrical systems on an Obelisk? Not bloody likely.

Tackle frig? Try multiple T3's and faction battleships. And we still couldn't kill it and it's escort in <2minutes. Very few fights are that short.