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PAUX: Legion of Faith

Author
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#21 - 2013-05-25 16:53:16 UTC
Raphael Ordo wrote:

To this day, Minmatar identify themselves first and foremost through their clan. Each of the seven major tribes has a tribal leader; this person serves pretty much the same position as a president or a head of state for the tribes. The authority of the tribe leader is unquestioned within the tribe, but he has little or no power outside his tribe.
I see no difference in your accusations against the Amarrian Empire, than in your own urbanized tribal life, found on Matari.
In the distant past these clans constantly warred against each other.
The Amarr liberated the Minmatar race, bringing technology, faith and purpose with them.


I beg to differ. At the time of first contact with the Amarrians the Tribes had long since ceased fighting against each other and were enjoying an unprecedented era of global cooperation, peace and prosperity. We were a technologically advanced spacefaring people who had traveled to and settled several planets within the Pator system. While it's true that the Amarr possessed superior technology, which helped them conquer the Minmatar Empire, it's false to state that you brought technology to us. As for "liberation"... well, if you see enslaving, forced cultural conversion, mass murder, terrorism and stunting our civilization's growth for nearly a thousand years as "liberation", then we have vastly differing understandings of the meaning of that word.

You are correct in that the Amarr did give us a purpose; to forever despise them for what they did to us and cause many of us to seek revenge.

Raphael Ordo wrote:

It's not about casting aside ones own self, and subjugate ourselves to anything.
The main focus in my speech is also not to talk down any other race. As said, the Amarr may be the chosen. Us, born outside the Empire, may not have the same blessing as our chosen brethren. But we are as vast as they are. And through faith and pure will of true understanding of the cosmic fundamentals we all lean back unto.
I found this through deep adakul meditation and faith, combined. I did not have to "forsake" my own culture or traditions. We are what we are, and we, the Legionnaires, deeply acknowledge that. And through this - We can find peace, instead of hatred.


Oh really? But aren't you subservient to your deity and what Kernher called "your betters", the True Amarr? I can understand your bowing before your deity but, to do so for another man? I also wonder what your church's orthodoxy would think of you seeking peace through Adakul rather than prayer? Sounds a bit heretical to me but, I admit that I'm far from an expert on your religion.

Raphael Ordo wrote:

There is too much hatred all around us to begin with. Hatred between races, hatred between factions and hatred between individuals..
We are better than this. He made us better than this. His will was not for us to destroy ourselves.
God has given us this opportunity. This power of immortality. The power to aquire wisdom.
Wisdom and hatred does not combine well.

It all comes out clear, once you at least try to understand and embrace the truth.
I urge to to open your eyes, and see what is now, not what was before.


I agree with you that there is indeed far too much violence and needless loss of life that stems from hate. I fail to see how the Amarrians can claim to extend peace through waging never ending war against those who don't wish to embrace their religion, culture and traditions. That's the truth that I see. Whether it was fighting the Ni-Kunni on Athra or the Jove at Vak'Atioth I see a people incapable of accepting, much less embracing, differing world views.

As much as I might like to ignore the past it's simply not possible to overlook the damage done to us by the invasion and occupation of our worlds, especially in light of the fact that your government's/religion's stated goal is to one day return and enslave us again.


Raphael Ordo wrote:

I can only urge you not to deal with this in absolutes. God didn't make this world solely in black and white.
Altough human expression tends to vary from place to place, know that your views are more shared than you already may know. Especially within the Praetoria.

May Darshan guide your path to God.


I'm not so simplistic to believe that the universe is binary. I thank you for your wishes and for responding to my questions. I hope that at some point there will be accommodation and understanding between our people

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-25 19:10:50 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:


The Gallente are close behind us, but they still have something to learn about "welcomin outsiders."
.


To be honest It's really hard to welcome outsiders when we open our front door and they are pointing a gun at us.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#23 - 2013-05-25 19:58:14 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I also wonder what your church's orthodoxy would think of you seeking peace through Adakul rather than prayer? Sounds a bit heretical to me but, I admit that I'm far from an expert on your religion.


Adakul is a spiritual philosophy and in no way conflicts with the Scriptures. It's widely known of and a few Amarrian monasteries have incorporated Adakul practices into their traditions.

The church orthodoxy has no problems with it.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-05-25 21:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:


The Gallente are close behind us, but they still have something to learn about "welcomin outsiders."
.


To be honest It's really hard to welcome outsiders when we open our front door and they are pointing a gun at us.


I was referring to your own immigrant citizens sir.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2013-05-25 22:07:17 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

I agree with you that there is indeed far too much violence and needless loss of life that stems from hate. I fail to see how the Amarrians can claim to extend peace through waging never ending war against those who don't wish to embrace their religion, culture and traditions. That's the truth that I see. Whether it was fighting the Ni-Kunni on Athra or the Jove at Vak'Atioth I see a people incapable of accepting, much less embracing, differing world views.



Remind me again: who attacked the Federation with dreadnoughts because of a minor extradition dispute?

Stones, glasshouses etc.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-05-26 01:08:32 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:

I agree with you that there is indeed far too much violence and needless loss of life that stems from hate. I fail to see how the Amarrians can claim to extend peace through waging never ending war against those who don't wish to embrace their religion, culture and traditions. That's the truth that I see. Whether it was fighting the Ni-Kunni on Athra or the Jove at Vak'Atioth I see a people incapable of accepting, much less embracing, differing world views.



Remind me again: who attacked the Federation with dreadnoughts because of a minor extradition dispute?

Stones, glasshouses etc.


Remind me again : who attacked the Federation with dreadnoughts because of no dispute?

Remind me again : who enslaved the Udorians (their own neighbors on the same planet) because of no dispute?

Remind me again : who enslaved the Ni-Kunni because of no dispute?

Remind me again : who fired on the Jovians?

Remind me again : who enslaved the people of Pator for 700 years because of no dispute?

Oops
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#27 - 2013-05-26 01:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Cipher7 wrote:
Remind me again : who enslaved the Udorians (their own neighbors on the same planet) because of no dispute?


The True Amarr and Khanid joined to defeat a powerful enemy that they both had an ongoing dispute with.

While I'm at it, the Udorians were slavers. In many ways, slavery in the Amarr Empire is a product of Udorian culture and its integration into True Amarr and Khanid social systems. Don't be too mad with them though. A far few number of Khanid warlords practiced scorched earth warfare, grabbing up attractive men and woman, taking everything of value, and setting cities ablaze. No slavery there!

It's important to remember that traditional Athram culture is a product of three different races, even if one appears to have been wholly consumed in the process.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-05-26 02:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:
Remind me again : who enslaved the Udorians (their own neighbors on the same planet) because of no dispute?


The True Amarr and Khanid joined to defeat a powerful enemy that they both had an ongoing dispute with.

While I'm at it, the Udorians were slavers. In many ways, slavery in the Amarr Empire is a product of Udorian culture and its integration into True Amarr and Khanid social systems. Don't be too mad with them though. A far few number of Khanid warlords practiced scorched earth warfare, grabbing up attractive men and woman, taking everything of value, and setting cities ablaze. No slavery there!

It's important to remember that traditional Athram culture is a product of three different races, even if one appears to have been wholly consumed in the process.


What can I say.

You guys deserve each other. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

I salute your knowledge of history.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#29 - 2013-05-26 02:20:42 UTC
Thank you.

I have often believed that if you want to understand a people, you should closely examine their roots.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#30 - 2013-05-26 04:48:48 UTC
Blake your warmongering ancestors were murdering, enslaving, and committing genocide thousands of years before the Republic Fleet's stupid attack on those Fed Navy dreadnaughts. Your whole history is one of armed conflict and forced assimilation of peaceful people who've never done Amarr any harm.

When the Gallente made first contact with the Caldari there was a peaceful cultural, economic and scientific exchange that culminated in the pair founding the Federation. Our first contact with your people ended with billions of Matari either dead or, kidnapped to serve as forced labor, as breeding stock, as test subjects for grotesque scientific experimentation... need I go on?

Sorry, but your attempts to draw some kind of moral equivalence between the Republic's two acts of treaty violation and your people's innumerable crimes against all humankind over the past several thousand years just don't stand up.

As I stated previously there are far more heinous crimes than the breaking of agreements between governmental entities. (And before you start, no, I don't agree with the breaking of legally binding agreements freely made between nations)

Better repair your own house before you start pointing out flaws in others'.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-05-26 04:57:44 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Blake your warmongering ancestors were murdering, enslaving, and committing genocide thousands of years before the Republic Fleet's stupid attack on those Fed Navy dreadnaughts. Your whole history is one of armed conflict and forced assimilation of peaceful people who've never done Amarr any harm.

When the Gallente made first contact with the Caldari there was a peaceful cultural, economic and scientific exchange that culminated in the pair founding the Federation. Our first contact with your people ended with billions of Matari either dead or, kidnapped to serve as forced labor, as breeding stock, as test subjects for grotesque scientific experimentation... need I go on?

Sorry, but your attempts to draw some kind of moral equivalence between the Republic's two acts of treaty violation and your people's innumerable crimes against all humankind over the past several thousand years just don't stand up.

As I stated previously there are far more heinous crimes than the breaking of agreements between governmental entities. (And before you start, no, I don't agree with the breaking of legally binding agreements freely made between nations)

Better repair your own house before you start pointing out flaws in others'.


Two wrongs certainly don't make a right, Ms. Rella.

However, your words are certainly true in the sense that one wrong can be significantly more grievous than another.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#32 - 2013-05-26 05:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Captain Fredbug I didn't mean to imply that there was any justification for the Republic's incursion into Federation sovereign territory. A great many of us strongly disagree with the action, especially since it placed our longstanding alliance at risk. The act was wrong and it wasn't my intention to justify it. I was attempting to point out to Blake, who takes every opportunity to harp on either the Elders' rescue of the Lost Tribes (which I feel was morally justified, although illegal by the letter of the law) or, the recent actions by the Fleet, to somehow minimize the culpability of his people. In my mind the two are light years apart.

To frame the argument in another way; Blake wants to compare criminal trespassing to premeditated murder and claim that they're equally serious acts under the law. This is, of course, nonsense. So is his argument that the Republic's treaty violations are equivalent to the Empire's systematic program of "reclaiming".

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2013-05-26 08:04:34 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:


Remind me again : who attacked the Federation with dreadnoughts because of no dispute?


If you're referring to the incursion by the Kador fleet, you may recall that Lord Kador was reprimanded for his actions. The Republic is apparently unwilling to even apologise for its actions

Quote:
Remind me again : who enslaved the Udorians (their own neighbors on the same planet) because of no dispute?


There was a dispute, and it was started by the Udorians.

Quote:
Remind me again : who enslaved the Ni-Kunni because of no dispute?


I don't hear too many objections from the Ni-Kunni who are alive today.

Quote:
Remind me again : who enslaved the people of Pator for 700 years because of no dispute?


And look at what "freedom" has brought those Matari who rebelled.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2013-05-26 08:08:07 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

To frame the argument in another way; Blake wants to compare criminal trespassing to premeditated murder and claim that they're equally serious acts under the law. This is, of course, nonsense. So is his argument that the Republic's treaty violations are equivalent to the Empire's systematic program of "reclaiming".


Criminal trespassing?

Illegally firing weapons at a vessel with the intent of destroying it is a little bit more than criminal trespassing, don't you think?

In fact, if it is destroyed, I would say that premeditated murder is a perfect description.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Vincent Rekmus
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-05-26 11:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Rekmus
I wonder, when people are killed is it still just criminal trespassing?

With so many opposed to the action how did the heathens fill a fleet?
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