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RIDDLE: What has no weight, 2 faces, a brown nose, 1 big mouth, 1 big head, 18 feet but wont walk?

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Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2011-10-21 20:35:47 UTC
Just because you don't see the play-by-play, doesn't mean we aren't fighting for you and for a better game that we can all enjoy Straight

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2011-10-21 21:26:05 UTC
Harm Pit wrote:

As an example, I reffered to Drunken CSM members, intending to reinforce the "waste of money" position I have regarding the CSM. You seen to have taken my evidencing this as some sort of Pious disaproval of alchol or something. This is certainly not the case. I do disaprove of the wast of money getting these people flown to Iceland to get pissed up though. And the references to "massive hangovers" at CCP and the obvious detrimental effect these would have on the supposed role the CSM are nominaly supposed to be performing.


Except you clearly do have issues with alcohol. Many adults will bond over a drink and the drinking culture is strong in Iceland. Are you suggesting that the CSM shouldn't have socialised with CCP staff members, instead electing to remain cold and distant?

Not to mention you completely ignored the part of the post you quoted where it was explained that the cost of 2x 8 trips to Iceland would pay for roughly the salary of one single developer, and thats not even including the other costs that come with hiring staff (equipment purchasing, consumable usage etc...). I'd certainly take the CSM over 1 developer. Not any specific developer but fortunately I don't have to choose one because I don't work at CCP.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#203 - 2011-10-22 12:11:46 UTC
Representatives should be conducting themselves in an unbiased and professional manner, for the company they represent.



They should not be acting like tools, posting HAHAHAHAHA walls of text or linking delicious tears demotivaters in every Anti-CSM thread that pops up. They should be giving us a reason to change our mind.



That being said your inflated egos are about to get **** canned.
Enjoy.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Phill Esteen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2011-10-22 12:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Phill Esteen
Harm Pit wrote:
CCP are tightening their belts, and now is the perfect time to tighten the metaphorical noose around the CSM… They need to be sacked. NOW. Hilmar.. get shot of them!


Yes, eliminating the CSM will save CCP an enormous amount of isk and not alienate the already frustrated playerbase in any way. No sir.

Harm Pit wrote:
12 world wide plane tickets, hotel fees, meals, and incidental costs many times a year would have paid the wages of some of the Devs who have been given the boot.


I am fairly sure this is stupid.

edit: I do however wish to point out that the title of this thread caused me considerable amusement

– postum faex est – 

never forget
Mahakaharashi RedEagle
Doomheim
#205 - 2011-10-22 13:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mahakaharashi RedEagle
CSM? Hahahahah

Never voted, never will. Because if CCP really wants to hear the voice of their players, they would give us direct polls integrated within the client, then publish results and act accordingly. This game is not freaking state, we don't need public representatives (bunch of immature ego-maniacs and pompous asses, btw), nor some so-called "democratic elections" (in which participate only 10% or even less of subscribed players).

CSM is just a CCP's cheap PR tool and as such deserves zero attention and respect.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#206 - 2011-10-22 13:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lharanai
I repeat my statement as some people really don't get it, I can't hear that stupid "your fault if you don't vote" or "run for CSM yourself" anymore,

The CSM are highly dedicated persons (with a lot of knowledge about EVE) which invest a lot of their time to EVE and this includes election campaigns. Problem is, not everyone is so dedicated or has the time for it....you now, like the casual players who just want to have a little fun in a computer game. EVE is a game not the political system we live in.

Do I blame the CSMs? Hell NO, they fight for what they think is the best for EVE. Unfortunately, as they are so highly immersed in the EVE Universe and their particular play style, the needs and wants of casual players don't have an impact on them.

Furthermore if you are a highly dedicated hardcore player you have no clue what casual players want you can only assume and it is not important to you.

The problem is that the CSM represent the hardcore players, and this is okay because they represent the players which elected them (look up the definition of 'representative"). Meanwhile casual players will not vote or run for CSM because they are not so involved in the game and all that crap about your fault if you don't vote will not work, hell most of them are not reading the forums because they want to play eve and NOT to spent hours here to get involved with the development of EVE.

Focus again Lharanai focus,

facts

the CSM represents the hardore players, and thats what they are voted for by hardcore players

there are a lot of casual players in EVE

these casual players will not run for CSM because they have no interest/time to do it, EVE is just a game to have fun

casual players pay for their accounts too, but have no voice to represent them (and they are not interested in getting a voice, as they just want to play a computer game and not running a election campaign in a computer game)

if casual players have no fun, they leave, without protest, without outcry, they just leave

CCP has just to ACCEPT that the CSMs only represents a part of all eve players and everything is fine, just DON'T make them the only voice you hear because they are so easy to hear.

*edit and direct vote has the same flaw, as some players don't WANT to get so deeply involved

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#207 - 2011-10-22 14:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lharanai
also to be productive

forget the ingame voting idea, many players will just click it away because they have no clue who these CSMs are and they don't want to, they just want to play a game.

But what might work would be a representative survey by GM of Dev, contact players directly ingame, develop something like a short interview AND make sure (I assume CCP can it based on customer information) that you don't ask only Alts.

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
Mahakaharashi RedEagle
Doomheim
#208 - 2011-10-22 15:02:45 UTC
Lharanai, this ingame voting would not be voting for some new CSM, because we don't need that. CSM is inneficient, complicated, slow, corrupted, biased, it represents only a small minority of CCP's customers, and beside that it's also suffering from serious flaw you described very well: "few hardcore players voted by few hardcore players".

Client-built polls should be held on regular bases, containing series of relatively simple, clear but DIRECT questions related to future development of the game as well as to usual everyday happenings all around New Eden. Do you like this, why don't you like that, what of the things listed you would like to see in next expansion, rate this, rate that... stuff like that.

Sure plenty of people would just click and close that window poping up on login but that's still light years ahead of current voting for this silly flying circus called CSM. Procedure is simpler, requires little time, and MUCH more paying customers would get a chance to voice their opinion.

Only potential problem I see is with CCP and their readiness to ask right questions, also to make ALL poll results public for everyone to see and draw some conclusions.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2011-10-22 15:17:11 UTC
You're using a common fallacy in political theory. You don't need to be black to represent black people, female to represent females, nor a casual player to represent causal players. Selecting people as "representative" is actually the surest way to ensure that actual concerns and voices are never heard, as representatives have no incentive to actually understand their constituents wants, as they are just assumed to know them.

I am confident that I could better represent the desires of a casual hisec player than anyone you will get by some kind of forced representation system. I could do this by doing what political actors are supposed to do which is conversing with their supporters and amalgamating their supporters' desires into some kind of cohesive message.

The only reason all these people are freaking out is because they suddenly realize that the CSM can be useful. So let's give people a chance to represent themselves before we start forcing representatives on them for their own good.
Khira Kitamatsu
#210 - 2011-10-22 16:19:49 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Just because you don't see the play-by-play, doesn't mean we aren't fighting for you and for a better game that we can all enjoy Straight


You're right, but all indications are you are only out for yourselves. What has the CSM done for the players of high-sec or WH space other than try to destroy our fun and ability to enjoy the game?

Ponies!  We need more ponies!
Phill Esteen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2011-10-22 21:50:46 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Just because you don't see the play-by-play, doesn't mean we aren't fighting for you and for a better game that we can all enjoy Straight


You're right, but all indications are you are only out for yourselves. What has the CSM done for the players of high-sec or WH space other than try to destroy our fun and ability to enjoy the game?


erm, what has the CSM done to ruin highsec exactly?

– postum faex est – 

never forget
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#212 - 2011-10-22 22:30:18 UTC
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

you actually typed all that.


lol this is a typical response from you. This is why no one likes you or mittani or goons. There has now been many posts that show people have zero respect or tolerance or support for you guys. Leave now and resign, might have some dignity left.



Are you going to keep posting dumb troll posts/threads or are you going to make some kind of effort of any type to advance issues that'd improve the game?

If you have issues you'd like addressed about the state of the game contact me offline. If you think our representation hasn't worked for you, contact me and let's chat about it. I don't expect you to, I think you're just trolling.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2011-10-23 01:43:34 UTC
Harm Pit wrote:
It is clear that these "individuals" who inhabit the CSM will not take that route. They need to be sacked. NOW. Hilmar.. get shot of them!


Clearly getting the CSM shots is a valid response. Look at Darius 3 -- Rabies. Very tragic.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2011-10-23 11:05:25 UTC
Mahakaharashi RedEagle wrote:
Just look at this... annoying little nobody, Vile rat, and his general attitude. And he's also in CSM, imagining that he's doing there God knows what - but probably something *very important* Roll Could be funny (in a dumb sort of way), only if it wasn't actually sad.

I do hope that CCP is finally opening their eyes after years of hibernation and that CSM is soon to be permanently disbanded, never to come back.


if you banned npc corps from posting in jita park like you do caod, this thread would be 2 pages long~

~hi~
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#215 - 2011-10-24 11:41:38 UTC
Ive never voted once heck i dont even vote in RL

but as players the players that did vote for these CSM ppl to be CSM

so those who voted yet now are complaining about it . you cant blaim anyone but yourselfs.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#216 - 2011-10-24 12:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: War Kitten
Mahakaharashi RedEagle wrote:
Lharanai, this ingame voting would not be voting for some new CSM, because we don't need that. CSM is inneficient, complicated, slow, corrupted, biased, it represents only a small minority of CCP's customers, and beside that it's also suffering from serious flaw you described very well: "few hardcore players voted by few hardcore players".

Client-built polls should be held on regular bases, containing series of relatively simple, clear but DIRECT questions related to future development of the game as well as to usual everyday happenings all around New Eden. Do you like this, why don't you like that, what of the things listed you would like to see in next expansion, rate this, rate that... stuff like that.

Sure plenty of people would just click and close that window poping up on login but that's still light years ahead of current voting for this silly flying circus called CSM. Procedure is simpler, requires little time, and MUCH more paying customers would get a chance to voice their opinion.

Only potential problem I see is with CCP and their readiness to ask right questions, also to make ALL poll results public for everyone to see and draw some conclusions.


Polls are useful for finding out people's preferences and what they want. They're too impersonal for having any kind of meaningful game balance discussion.

People, in general, are selfish. Give them an impersonal poll and they'll vote for what they want, not what's "best" overall. Thousands of opinions get reduced down to raw numbers and then have to be interpreted. Some value can be gained from that, sure, but it can't replace the CSM.

The CSM is a group of actual people that are passionate about the game. They're quite likely to know about a variety of game mechanics and gameplay styles because they're so passionate, and because they are "hardcore players" as you put it. That's a good thing.

These are the types of people that you can have a meaningful discussion with, face to face, and both bounce ideas off of, and get ideas from. Meeting in person allows you to form a judgement and opinion of these people and the value of their ideas that you cannot get just from either an opinion poll or purely written conversations. If someone is just purely a troll with no useful ideas or value to the CSM, CCP and the other CSM members will be able to tell and disregard their input. If someone is just a blowhard that somehow manages to persuade enough people to vote for them, but is really on a single-minded agenda, they also can be listened to with a grain of salt and/or ignored.

We've seen a little of both on the CSM - useful, intelligent folks that are passionate about the game and want to improve it as a whole, and the self-serving blow-hards or silver-tongued devils that talk a good game to the public but end up violating the rules or getting ignored once on the council. The election of a couple bad members does not invalidate the entire council.

Either way, the population of Eve gamers is to blame for who gets elected. The democratic election process gives you a chance to evaluate the usefulness of each individual CSM member. THAT is your chance to make a difference and cast a positive vote. Vote for the person you think will best represent your concerns and be a useful member of the discussions in Iceland.

This part is important, so I'll say it again:

The entire population of Eve players is responsible for who gets elected to the CSM.

Not voting just says you don't care who represents you.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#217 - 2011-10-24 15:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lharanai
Difficult....as english is not my native language it seems that I have trouble to communicate what I mean,

I do not blame the CSM, they represent the players which voted them, might be an assumption, but I believe the majority of the voters are hardcore players.

I am concerned about the future of CCP as they provide US with a product we like hardcore or casual players alike, I hear it so often "if you don't vote, don't complain", as I am reading the forums, I am not longer a real casual player because these will never be here. Fact is, CCP needs the casual players, where do you think the PLEX hardcore players are using for their accounts are coming from, they don't grow on trees.

Another assumption I know, but I assume the casual players which don't have the time but the RL money are the majority, bringing PLEX into the game. And now I come back to the problem as I see it,

These Casual Players will never read the forums, they will not vote because they are not interested in politics in a game, Yes EVE is a game and a product, and like it or not the hardcore players need them, not for ingame stuff, but for the revenue they are bringing to CCP.

EVE is a product, and I consider all forum readers/posters as fanboys in different fanclubs with different agendas, but and that is my fear CCP cannot survive based on its fans alone, it needs the buyers who just pay for a good product, and if it is not longer good, because of bad marketing strategies or changes in the product they chose something else WITHOUT writing a letter to the company.

Summary
CSMs are valuable, they represents a PART of all EVE players, and in general they do a good job (but hell don't expect more from them then from our RL politicians, actually I think they are far better then our RL masters)

Real casual players don't have a voice and don't want a voice, but if they are unhappy with the product EVE they leave

CCP needs casual players for the revenue

hardcore players need casual players for the PLEX


It is a difficult balancing act, as I assume again, we all don't want EVE to become too casual, hell I don't want WOW in space.

My suggestion is still addressed to CCP, as they need a tool to hear the silent casual players, and the ingame survey was just a suggestion, bring on something better, but please stop that nonsense "if they don't vote their fault" and accept that there are players bringing revenue to CCP who don't give single penny about mine or your opinions, as they will never read the forums.

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#218 - 2011-10-25 04:50:25 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
You're right, but all indications are you are only out for yourselves. What has the CSM done for the players of high-sec or WH space other than try to destroy our fun and ability to enjoy the game?

Name a single example of the CSM destroying your ability to have fun in highsec.
Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#219 - 2011-10-25 12:07:53 UTC
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
You're right, but all indications are you are only out for yourselves. What has the CSM done for the players of high-sec or WH space other than try to destroy our fun and ability to enjoy the game?

Name a single example of the CSM destroying your ability to have fun in highsec.


thats a trick question right?
Zephyrus II
Cardboard Enterprises
#220 - 2011-10-25 13:31:12 UTC
The goons are destroying your ability to have fun in high sec.

I don't see CSM influence here.