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Anom changes +6 months

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#41 - 2011-10-21 00:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
One thing is clear. Between Dominions release and the Anom nerf Nullsec was more populated and had more conflicts then ever before. Whys that? Because individual pilots where able to fund themselves much better and not necessary have to rely on corp/alliance reimbursements. What happened after the nerf? Stagnation and a mass exodus of null.

Now I do honestly believe that anomalies should have been tones down a bit. However doing a blanket removal of high end anomalies in ****** truesec was bad. The same high ends anomalies should have stayed however bounties should have scaled based off of truesec. This would still give good income to individual pilots, while at the same time keeping to the core reason CCP had for the changes intact.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2011-10-21 00:43:47 UTC
Jack bubu wrote:
White Tree wrote:
I have continuously moaned about the Anom changes since their release. I felt, and continue to feel that they had no impact on sovereignty warfare, and all they did was make the lives of the average foot-soldier in the average nullsec alliance a nightmare.

It took away a overpowered isk making machine.

It was a redicoulus ISK generator totally out of scale, just like (highsec) incursions are now.

Incursions make way more money than sanctums used to.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-10-21 01:27:16 UTC
Lee'lei wrote:
Lets have a look at making money in eve (instant cash that is).

Highsec (99.9% safe, can be done almost afk):-
lvl4 running (this is minmaxing LP, like you should): anywhere between 80-150m/hour (highest recorded is 250m/hour)
Highsec incursions (inc. LP): 100-170m/hour

Lowsec (reasonably safe, no bubbles and you're in a fleet for both):-
Lowsec incursions (inc. LP): 180-240m/hour
lvl5 mission running: unknown (not many run them due to risk)

0.0 (unsafe, cloaky campers and logoff traps everywhere, have to be constantly aware) :-
Combat sites (pre-nerf): 100-170m/hour <----- any upgraded 0.0 (note, this costs and takes heavy logistics)
Combat sites (post-nerf): 70-100m/hour <-----IN A -0.8 SYSTEM!

Ignore escalations, you get maybe one every few days unless you poopsock and aren't soloable unless you have 3 alts, the rewards also vary heavily based on pure luck.

Please, tell me pre-nerfed combat sites are overpowered isk printing machines, I'd love to hear more.

I've never come near the numbers you list for hi-sec missions (80m isk / hour) in 4 years...

Not saying it can't be done, but *I've* never seen it.


CSM have solid numbers from CCP on isk/lp / hour in hi-sec?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Marsha Mallow
#44 - 2011-10-21 01:39:11 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
One thing is clear. Between Dominions release and the Anom nerf Nullsec was more populated and had more conflicts then ever before. Whys that? Because individual pilots where able to fund themselves much better and not necessary have to rely on corp/alliance reimbursements. What happened after the nerf? Stagnation and a mass exodus of null.

Now I do honestly believe that anomalies should have been tones down a bit. However doing a blanket removal of high end anomalies in ****** truesec was bad. The same high ends anomalies should have stayed however bounties should have scaled based off of truesec. This would still give good income to individual pilots, while at the same time keeping to the core reason CCP had for the changes intact.


+1

Not sure why CCP felt that the ecomomy was being unbalanced by Sanctum income in particular, when L4 mission running and bottting appeared to be at an all time high. Mining had also recently been boosted by the introduction of the Orca yet Grav sites were left untouched. Rebalancing agent quality was a further slap in the face, as it seemed like it rewarded high sec players above null. Incursions as they stand now, also seem to reward empire players as opposed to null.

Obviously we'll never see reports for that, I doubt CCP can even produce them accurately internally. The botting team was put into place after the sanctum nerf I think, could be wrong?

The annoying thing pre anom nerf was that station bulding was cheaper than building a supercap, so everyone threw them up and nullsec was becoming pretty populated and farmable as a result for pvpers. CCP addressed stagnancy in sov holding by removing isk making at grunt level (diminishing content) nerfing JBs (increase logistics) and pretty much demoralised a large portion of the nullsec population, whilst another section utilised what CCP have previously referred to as "temporary but deliberate game disbalances", ie supercaps. Moon mining imbalances left untouched, and no word when that will ever be addressed.

If this was a social experiment, think we'd all like to see some results before we unsub....

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#45 - 2011-10-21 04:50:58 UTC
Just wait. They won't restore anomalies to nullsec in any form. They'll go on to nerf ore mining by tying it to sec status as well.

"We believe this will allow smaller alliances a better chance to... "
"Coalitions will be more unstable..."
etc etc
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2011-10-21 04:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Headerman
One thing that would get more people out to more areas of 0.0 is to have ever second or third system as a pretty high true sec in some regions.

Remove most roid fields from said systems, move ABC to high true sec systems (so -0.1 would have lots of ABC). Get each corp competing for said resources. Maybe.

But, i thing the more isk there is available in 0.0, then the more PVP there will be.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Vastek Non
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-10-21 05:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vastek Non
White Tree wrote:
Jack bubu wrote:

It took away a overpowered isk making machine.


Yeah then they buffed level 4s and made them a lot more profitable. Because thats what hisec players needed, more easy ISK that never gets blown up.



and

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23191&p=14

Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Lharanai wrote:
maybe I have not tried enough

Considering you can make more isk shooting gate rats in nullsec than you can running a level 4 mission I'm going to agree.



= Question

Sounds like the 'I hates high sec cause they iz smelly carebears' bunch is on the bandwagon again.


Edit: Not arguing the whole Incursions thing is overpowered. Crazy LP and Isk. I see CCP are thinking about making Concorde LP one way of obtaining the new POCO bp's. Not outstanding at all (FW not so bad though)
Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#48 - 2011-10-21 05:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Myz Toyou
White Tree wrote:
Jack bubu wrote:

It took away a overpowered isk making machine.


Yeah then they buffed level 4s and made them a lot more profitable. Because thats what hisec players needed, more easy ISK that never gets blown up.


Maybe you should read all the whine threads about LP stores collapsing left and right then.

edit: dont get me wrong, I havent run missions for 18 month atleast as I farm a WH Blink
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#49 - 2011-10-21 05:19:24 UTC
I wouldn't blame the anomaly rebalance for all of this.

I would put the blame on the fact that low and medium grade anomalies are not worth the time invested. It's more profitable to do other things, like L4s or incursions. This oversight pretty much made any high trusec system worthless for average player because of the low bounty potential, and because the sov bills for bad systems will cost you more than the taxes you get from people farming the system, people packed up and went to highsec, or left the game.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-10-21 05:20:15 UTC
Maybe the high sec guys should start reporting bots. I think it's getting to be Holy Vengeance levels again

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Vastek Non
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-10-21 05:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vastek Non
Headerman wrote:
Maybe the high sec guys should start reporting bots. I think it's getting to be Holy Vengeance levels again


I mine in HS and always report bots when I find one. Many others do the same.

Question is, who is looking at the Null Sec bots that (seemingly) roam with inpunity as they are protected by a 'don't ask don't tell' alliance leadership.

Arguably the null sec ones are the worst due to the huge isk injections (read up on Leetcheese for tips) into the system.

Ultimately they are all game ruining cheaters and nothing would make me happier than to see all bots and their mains perma banned, null, low and high.

Edit: How many high sec dwellers can afford multiple SCaps and replacements if needed? I understand from failheap that something like 3/4 SCap pilots are in this boat.
Boohoo poor broke nullseccers? I'm guessing the problems with null are somewhat more than just obtaining isk.

FYI I lived there in 2006 before any of the ridiculous overpowered sanctums/anoms etc etc existed, and we did just fine. Maybe nullsec pilots have been spoilt too long.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-10-21 05:28:24 UTC
Lee'lei wrote:
I love how everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that you can STILL make more money in highsec regardless of any Risk vs. Reward ****. I'm pretty sure that's why the sov upgrades where implemented, to allow people living in 0.0 to ACTUALLY live in 0.0, instead of PvPing in 0.0 and living in highsec running lvl4's.

We've basically gone full circle and are back to the point where 0.0 is poor as ---- on a personal (not alliance) level.

Nerf missions and buff 0.0 to a level where Risk vs. Reward is viable again, screw the value of isk, it'l balance out sooner or later.

I don't agree with this at all.

Making isk in 0.0 WAS a lot easier and happened much more rapidly than highsec. Yes, there was plenty of risk, HD's, gangs etc.

THEN came the nerf, systems got camped or too many blues and bang when the coin and I've said this repeatedly. The reward v risk got badly rolled in reverse. It got to the point I couldn't afford to go pick a fight. So I left.

Nerfing highsec is NOT going to fix the problem because it's not the cause. You have to work much harder on L4 missions to pull the same coin. There are people saying they make 40+m/hr doing L4's. I've got chars on faction standings of 9.9 (in other words I have done 100's, if not 1000's of missions), flying 750dps Tengus with Claymore support and I cannot make that kind of cash so I have no idea where they say that kind of money is coming from. You may get a mission occassionally that makes 40m/hr but it just doesn't happen enough to call it an "average"... Nowhere near it.

3m is probably best for a L4 mission. 3m in SP. 13-18 in bounties - on the good ones.

So they must be getting what, 16-20m in salvage? EVERY mission? AND it has to be done solo to get it!

No way. (Please correct me if I am wrong. Please.)

A few Sanctums and a run of well chained belts I can average 45-60m per hour. ALL DAY, EVERY DAY....

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Vastek Non
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-10-21 05:36:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vastek Non
The Apostle wrote:
Lee'lei wrote:
I love how everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that you can STILL make more money in highsec regardless of any Risk vs. Reward ****. I'm pretty sure that's why the sov upgrades where implemented, to allow people living in 0.0 to ACTUALLY live in 0.0, instead of PvPing in 0.0 and living in highsec running lvl4's.

We've basically gone full circle and are back to the point where 0.0 is poor as ---- on a personal (not alliance) level.

Nerf missions and buff 0.0 to a level where Risk vs. Reward is viable again, screw the value of isk, it'l balance out sooner or later.

. You have to work much harder on L4 missions to pull the same coin. There are people saying they make 40+m/hr doing L4's. I've got chars on faction standings of 9.9 (in other words I have done 100's, if not 1000's of missions), flying 750dps Tengus with Claymore support and I cannot make that kind of cash so I have no idea where they say that kind of money is coming from. You may get a mission occassionally that makes 40m/hr but it just doesn't happen enough to call it an "average"... Nowhere near it.

3m is probably best for a L4 mission. 3m in SP. 13-18 in bounties - on the good ones.

So they must be getting what, 16-20m in salvage? EVERY mission? AND it has to be done solo to get it!

No way. (Please correct me if I am wrong. Please.)

A few Sanctums and a run of well chained belts I can average 45-60m per hour. ALL DAY, EVERY DAY....


A lot of those quotes on the 40m + per hour are related to low sec pirate L4's and in specific systems and circumstances I have seen claims of higher (several hundred mill per hour).

It is possible to get high isk doing L4's with main in a decent semi afk BS (Domi/Rattlesnake/HAC) and a alt salvaging, if you include Bounties, salvage, loot and LP, however its a mind numbingly bad way to earn isk compared to a decent LS L5 or Null sanctum etc Ugh

In this case, ultimately I will just defer to our esteemed Goon colleague again:

Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Lharanai wrote:
maybe I have not tried enough

Considering you can make more isk shooting gate rats in nullsec than you can running a level 4 mission I'm going to agree.
Steelshine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-10-21 06:23:05 UTC
In my sanctum setup for two characters, I can clean one per tick, three per hour, roughly 70m/hour or 35m/account-effort.


Setting up a hisec alt in a guardian doing safe incursions is more profitable and easier Roll
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#55 - 2011-10-21 06:29:36 UTC
The removal did exactly what it was meant to;
- Eliminated a gaping wound in the economy at the cost of a chunk (of debatable size) of the slave population (or renters if you want to be PC).
- Reintroduced the "grass is greener" concept to null, the lack of which was the direct cause of the longest slumber-party Eve has ever seen.

Why it failed at actually making a difference has more to do with CCPs ineptitude as they never did anything to change how Sov is won/lost, so the "little guy" still gets clobbered/enslaved and the fat-cats are still gaining weight ..
With the promise of iteration taking the drivers seat and large'ish changes coming before the end of the year there may still be hope though .. challenge for CCP is to make the null barons fall in-line and accept the changes that are no longer optional if Eve as a whole is to survive (ie. Sov).
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2011-10-21 06:30:22 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
One thing is clear. Between Dominions release and the Anom nerf Nullsec was more populated and had more conflicts then ever before. Whys that? Because individual pilots where able to fund themselves much better and not necessary have to rely on corp/alliance reimbursements. What happened after the nerf? Stagnation and a mass exodus of null.

For half a year to a year after Dominion the general consensus was that 0.0 pvp is dead due to unpredictable lag making battles a toin coss.

Your post smells of revisionist history.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-10-21 06:33:36 UTC
Steelshine wrote:
In my sanctum setup for two characters, I can clean one per tick, three per hour, roughly 70m/hour or 35m/account-effort.

Setting up a hisec alt in a guardian doing safe incursions is more profitable and easier Roll

So from that we can assume that INCURSIONS may be the cause of 0.0 dropout rates?

I have nfi what kind of money they make so personally cannot comment. But I do know that L4 missions does not make anywhere near the kind of money I can make in 0.0... Ever.

I combine production with L4's on multiple chars I can get close but man, it becomes a job!

I play Eve to chillax Cool

/me thinks about doing Incursions...

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Sofia Bellard
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-10-21 06:39:36 UTC
White Tree is still butt hurt about the anom nerf? Get over it noob!

Poor sad little pirates,  why you so mad?
Steelshine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2011-10-21 06:39:37 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Steelshine wrote:
In my sanctum setup for two characters, I can clean one per tick, three per hour, roughly 70m/hour or 35m/account-effort.

Setting up a hisec alt in a guardian doing safe incursions is more profitable and easier Roll

So from that we can assume that INCURSIONS may be the cause of 0.0 dropout rates?

I have nfi what kind of money they make so personally cannot comment. But I do know that L4 missions does not make anywhere near the kind of money I can make in 0.0... Ever.

I combine production with L4's on multiple chars I can get close but man, it becomes a job!

I play Eve to chillax Cool

/me thinks about doing Incursions...


Maybe. Sanctums with two characters can make more then hisec missions. But a single Tengu/Nightmare/Mach who knows what they are doing can come close to scraping the bottom of the two(2) character Sanctum by blitzing lvl4s. And the sanctum runner is one per ~good~ truesec system on a 5 minute respawn.

Incursions combined with the availability nerf probably pulled a lot of people from null, but I guess the question is should a single character running (relatively)safe hisec incursions make more then someone equally competent doing anoms in null?
The Apostle
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-10-21 06:42:42 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
The removal did exactly what it was meant to;
- Eliminated a gaping wound in the economy at the cost of a chunk (of debatable size) of the slave population (or renters if you want to be PC).
- Reintroduced the "grass is greener" concept to null, the lack of which was the direct cause of the longest slumber-party Eve has ever seen.

Why it failed at actually making a difference has more to do with CCPs ineptitude as they never did anything to change how Sov is won/lost, so the "little guy" still gets clobbered/enslaved and the fat-cats are still gaining weight ..
With the promise of iteration taking the drivers seat and large'ish changes coming before the end of the year there may still be hope though .. challenge for CCP is to make the null barons fall in-line and accept the changes that are no longer optional if Eve as a whole is to survive (ie. Sov).

I've often said, albeit tongue in cheek, that the way to solve sov is to remove "alliances" and max out corp sizes.

No it won't get rid of NAPS/NIPS but it would certainly encourage more corps into 0.0 as well as reducing the alliance strangleholds on 0.0 and create instability. I can't imagine this ever happening though. CCP would **** off a lot of people if they did although we know that even the CSM is really advocating to break the deadlock called 0.0.

Remember that CCP themselves suggested that the anom nerf would help smaller alliances get established.

Question they forgot to ask was WHERE? Everything is owned!

If anything the good systems became better defended because the ratters congregated. Whilst it was harder to make isk, it WAS easier to get a defense fleet up (usually Blink).

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]