These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sun Tzu: an almost necessity!
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#61 - 2013-05-20 06:25:30 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
As someone who has actually read it, I'm not entirely certain how the vast passages mostly describing how to identify your enemy's numbers by the amount of dust their march kicks up, what kind of weather is advantageous to attacking, and how to identify your enemy's morale by how the hold their lances translates into internet space warfare.

Whenever I see people reference it as some bible of strategy I just shake my head. 90% of it is incredibly specific to ancient chinese warfare, and the other 10% is essentially extremely basic strategic thinking 101. Anyone with a strategic mind already knows everything he wrote down. Things like "win a fight before you commit to it" are basic common sense.

Can I at least apply that to Incursus hulls?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#62 - 2013-05-20 06:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
there was an episode of Last Man Standing where the main character's boss talks more and more about Sun Tzu's writings, praising it and whatnot trying to convince the main character to read it too. and at the end of the episode he says "meh, China never won a war since then".

Big smile
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#63 - 2013-05-20 06:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vortexo VonBrenner
I don't know about anyone else , but this thread makes me want some General Tsao's chicken.

EvE security zones in pictures

EvE quick reference pdf

EvE links
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#64 - 2013-05-20 06:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Chin MonWang wrote:


So, I am curious to learn if there are any other pilots that possess a real understanding and knowledge of the Sun Tzu!??

I've read The Art of War - Repeatedly. I've served in the armed forces. Most of The Art of War cannot apply. the rest is sound advice, albeit kinda obvious if you think a bit.

Most of EVE doesn't have the level of organization required to make The Art of War useful - Tactics and strategy are meaningless in the stew of anarchy and chaos and ineptitude. However, there are some entities that apply the precepts well. The breaking of BoB (devise stratagems). The actions of GHSC (when close, make your enemy think you are far). The Battle of Asakai (on death ground, fight).

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-05-20 07:02:18 UTC
The way I play (maximize kills minimize losses) its very applicable. The people who play EvE like an FPS not so much.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#66 - 2013-05-20 10:11:42 UTC
I have read it, and on a very general level it is useful, but its the kind of thing where if you already know it, you agree, while if you don't know it, it doesn't really help.

Besides, I think Ender's Game is more appropriate, don't you?

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-05-20 10:50:00 UTC
Garresh wrote:
I have read it, and on a very general level it is useful, but its the kind of thing where if you already know it, you agree, while if you don't know it, it doesn't really help.

Besides, I think Ender's Game is more appropriate, don't you?

To be honest most of the ideas described seem like common sense to me. Such as don't engage the enemy on unfavourable terms, and dictate the engagement in your favour, dont charge up a hill into a hail of arrows, and that sort of thing. It is always good to remember common sense when fighting as I know some people probably forget particularly in eve. But surely you could just sum up the whole book in a sentence, "use common sense when fighting your enemy".
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-05-20 10:51:45 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
And what would Sun Tzu say about the strategic and tactical value of spending one's time playing war in an internet game about imaginary spaceships?


Sun Tzu was probably a fat neckbeard that lived in his mom's tent...

Haha :)
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-05-20 11:00:07 UTC
Shao Huang wrote:
The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries.

Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.
Tri Vetra
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2013-05-20 11:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tri Vetra
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Shao Huang wrote:
The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries.

Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.


no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#71 - 2013-05-20 11:27:19 UTC
Tri Vetra wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Shao Huang wrote:
The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries.

Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.


no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works.

It is actually from text and theories written by old Eastern Scholars. Many books from current "masters" in the East pay great reverence to them.

I guess you could compare it to Western religious texts, although even their reverence is diminished in this day an age.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-05-20 12:10:10 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I am half way through "The Great Karate Myth" and "A Brief History of Time", but I am re-reading the Java Certified Programming books (1 through 3) and then I need to read "The Folly of Reason" and "Algorithms & Data Structures"... and then the Ian Banks books... then I have a biography of Nikola Tesla, that I have been meaning to read... hmm.. I should put that one forward in the list really.


Sun Tzu wrote:
Go outside


OfBalance wrote:
Please send me all your stuff so that I may liberate the proletariat, brother.


Interesting you should say that, I live on a communal farm and share all my property and bandwidth with my comrades. Don't tell them about EVE though, my account is the one thing I'm not allowed to share.

Dodixie > Hek
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-05-20 12:14:38 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Tri Vetra wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Shao Huang wrote:
The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries.

Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.


no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works.

It is actually from text and theories written by old Eastern Scholars. Many books from current "masters" in the East pay great reverence to them.

I guess you could compare it to Western religious texts, although even their reverence is diminished in this day an age.


Wasting your time trying to have a reasonable conversation with a Goon.
Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2013-05-20 12:14:50 UTC
I always interpreted the Art of War not so much as a literal thing *lances straight? run!* but a way to create a mindset for an aspiring general. It's the philosophy of thought that drives the decision thats important.

Works pretty well for me in RTS games. However in Eve I'd be better served by a treatise in guerilla warfare.

Kill it with Fire!

Victor Dathar
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#75 - 2013-05-20 12:29:40 UTC
Ancient Chinese Proverb say: "Man who dips into other mans well catch only crabs".

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
#76 - 2013-05-20 12:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Leper ofBacon
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Tri Vetra wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Shao Huang wrote:
The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries.

Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.


no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works.

It is actually from text and theories written by old Eastern Scholars. Many books from current "masters" in the East pay great reverence to them.

I guess you could compare it to Western religious texts, although even their reverence is diminished in this day an age.


I too have never read all the way through a book and am also delighted to deliver my opinions to the internet authoritatively with absolutely no specific references!
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#77 - 2013-05-20 15:24:35 UTC
I have found reading D&D paperback novels is good for EVE Online, it has magic, wizards, Necromancers, halflings ...

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#78 - 2013-05-20 15:32:09 UTC
Aracimia Wolfe wrote:
I always interpreted the Art of War not so much as a literal thing *lances straight? run!* but a way to create a mindset for an aspiring general. It's the philosophy of thought that drives the decision thats important.

Works pretty well for me in RTS games. However in Eve I'd be better served by a treatise in guerilla warfare.

The Art of War addresses what we now call "Geurilla War" or "A-Symmetrical Warfare" with reasonable detail - Broad strokes, but still classically applicable. Any detailed text on the subject is going to be too specific to apply to EVE. The Art of War's basic take on it is sufficient.

Your observation about 'establishing mindset' is spot-on.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
OfBalance
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-05-20 15:58:46 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:

Interesting you should say that, I live on a communal farm and share all my property and bandwidth with my comrades. Don't tell them about EVE though, my account is the one thing I'm not allowed to share.


That's amazing brother, please share you in-game property (That's such a dirt word! You know that there's no such thing!) with me so that I can attend to the liberating!
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2013-05-20 16:02:30 UTC
Chin MonWang wrote:
Having read many comments on warfare on the forums made me realy wonder: "how many of the pilots did actually REALY take an effort to study the both tactical and strategical riches offered by the writings of Sun Tzu", since real knowledge of the Arts of War would of course for most represent an enormous benefit during their strivings to get to be succesful to some extend in space warfare (high/low/nul sec)

So, I am curious to learn if there are any other pilots that possess a real understanding and knowledge of the Sun Tzu!??



Ah yes, the timeless wisdom of Sun Tzu. One of the most quotable ancient military tacticians, who can forget such gems as:

-"He who knows when he can kite and when he has to hide in a safe spot, will be victorious."

-"Victorious warriors fit first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then fit."

-"He who is prudent and AFK cloaks in the enemy system to deny them their ISK, will be victorious."