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Are hybrids inherently broken and impossible to fix?
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Alara IonStorm
#41 - 2011-10-20 23:07:09 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:


Don't make fast enough it to kill Vagabonds, make it so it can run down and OBLITERATE! Hurricanes, Harbinger's non speed bonused HAC's with overwhelming Blaster DPS.
Blasters also fail "because of neuted". Make a deimos as fast as you want, he'll get capped out once he gets within 12 km of a cane.

Which is why I wrote tis
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Maybe dump the free high slot for a mid that fits a Cap Booster.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-10-20 23:55:38 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
I don't believe that it's possible to fix blasters without nerfs to other races and weapons.

There are two main areas. Firstly, the absurdity of giving the shortest-range weapons to a slow race, and effective ranged weapons to the fastest race. Clearly the wrong way round.

The second problem relates to the power-creep of recent years. During QR, pulse tracking got boosted. This made Pulse more effective close up - supposedly Gallente's realm. Later, projectiles got boosted. Raw damage got increased, TEs allowed for enhanced tracking and selectable damage increased applied damage. All of these made ACs better in blasters' realm.

So now how do we fix blasters? By following the power-creep model, we could increase their optimal or falloff. This continues the model of homogenising the weapons. But people understandably object to this. Now, you can increase blaster tracking and raw DPS, but the problem is that the ability of Pulse and ACs to deliver very impressive damage at blasters' optimal still remains. The problem is that Pulse and ACs are far too flexible. To really fix blasters - to give them a role that they excel in, where you can't just use another weapon system to good effect - the applied damage of AC and Pulse at close range is going to have to be significantly reduced. This means, say, reducing Pulse tracking and reverting all of the projectile changes, then giving blasters a lot more tracking and maybe a bit more DPS, or giving them more selectable damage types (still limited to kinetic/thermal mixtures though).

The only problem with this idea is that there is precisely zero chance that CCP, in its new self-flagellation mode, will dare to propose such wide-ranging nerfs, however justified they may be. So instead all we will get is some half-arsed changes that either turn blasters into an inferior knockoff of ACs or Pulse, or a superior knockoff that obsoletes one of ACs or Pulse, or just increase blasters' raw damage and tracking that, while helpful, still leaves blasters crippled by a complete lack of flexibility compared to ACs and Pulse.


while your concern is valid, tbh a "boost first, nerf later" approach on this issue might be the better way.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2011-10-21 01:20:38 UTC
The problem is that many of the changes applied to ACs should have been for hybrids. As it stands, ACs have too much going for them.

Specifically the ammo changes. Hybrids should have gotten the 'pure damage types' buff and not projectiles. The TE changes, effectively giving projectiles a second damage mod, was a good enough buff. It extended their range and pushed the optimal and fallout out. That was enough for projectiles. The ammo changes were a good idea - but they should have been applied (with some variation) on hybrids.

anyway, its a difficult fix really - hybrids are actually not the problem - its the conditions - th high cap use, massive fitting issues, on slow ships thats the issue. overall, minmatar have the best combination of traits right now - the best t2 resists, the fastest, most agile, and lowest sig. ships married with a weapon system that is easy as sin to fit, takes no cap, has fantastic tracking and reaches far far out to do damage. Sure pulse does 80% of hybrid damage all the way out to optimal, but Amarr have the largest number of pure gunboat ships, the fitting costs are immense, the cap use is immense, and the negatives are quite huge, Minmatar ships use multiple weapon systems to work around their inferior guns - but that is not the case anymore. Hybrids should be the second best gun system, high damage at close range, or precision at long range. . . but that is not the way it is now. And the only way to get that fixed is to take away some of the AC abilities and give them to hybrids.

not a popular idea, but that is what needs to happen.
Machete Visor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-10-21 01:27:31 UTC
imho, blaster ships should get more drone bonuses to prevent the kiting effect. notice that no one complains about the myrm? it has a nice drone support to go w/ the guns.

as for railguns... how about ++dmg and --rate of fire. Basically a better version of artillery.

both these let the 'slow, armor tanked, gallente' theme stay in place.


from a fleet doctrine point of view, could see railgun alpha fleets with fast little minnie ships w/ webs (rapiers, etc)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#45 - 2011-10-21 01:32:58 UTC
I'm afraid ccp will just make them like other weapons about the same range about the same tracking and about the same dps.

IMO they should consider just radically increasing the tracking on blasters. Medium blasters have about the same range as small pulse lasers. Why not give them the same tracking. Same goes with large blasters. Give them the tracking medium pulse lasers have.

This would make them a very interesting weapon. They would still have the problems trying to catch ships kiting outside of scram range. But I actually think that is fairly balanced. Its not all that easy to hold a ship yet stay outside of scram range.

The real problem as I see it when you take a ship with medium or larger blasters you might get caught by a smalller ship that orbits tight making it impossible to hit.

Gallente battleships would be able to pop cruisers like balloons but they still woudln't be as strong as Amarr battleships for BS versus BS fleets.

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Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-10-21 02:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Igualmentedos
Stan Smith wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
tbh with rails u cant go DPS and u cant go for alpha.. so you have to think what sort of fleet combat niche can be filled with it.

i see them as the longest range (but keep it within 250km plz!) and fastest tracking of all long range weapon systems, but the worst alpha, with better dps than beams. they need to have a high rof.

the interesting addition should be to sensors, like the railgun turret ties itself into the sensor systems of ships and boosts it. so a small bonus per turret to sensor resolution, lock range, and sensor strength.
this would allow it to become the backbone of a fleet type that can swap targets fast and apply damage fast at range to beat logi lock times and pilots broadcast times.


This, give the ferox a hybrid damage bonus, and make caldari missile ships get damage bonuses for non-kinetic missiles (10% to kinetic, 5% to others is fine with me)

Quote:
- Make their target range HUGE! Why is it the rokh's guns can out range the tracking computer thingy? (i understand typically bullets go much further than someone's ability to aim IRL, but it's a video game FFS)
- Also, increase the optimal on caldari boats please. Whats the point of trying to kill something when you can barely scratch the paint on it?


since caldari gunships dont have optimal range ship bonuses

wait...


Sorry, when I said "increase the optimal on Caldari boats" I meant to say buff the optimal bonus, but feel free to interpret that however you want since I apparently didn't make that clear enough.
Feyona
Doomheim
#47 - 2011-10-21 03:24:59 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I'm afraid ccp will just make them like other weapons about the same range about the same tracking and about the same dps.

IMO they should consider just radically increasing the tracking on blasters. Medium blasters have about the same range as small pulse lasers. Why not give them the same tracking. Same goes with large blasters. Give them the tracking medium pulse lasers have.

This would make them a very interesting weapon. They would still have the problems trying to catch ships kiting outside of scram range. But I actually think that is fairly balanced. Its not all that easy to hold a ship yet stay outside of scram range.

The real problem as I see it when you take a ship with medium or larger blasters you might get caught by a smalller ship that orbits tight making it impossible to hit.

Gallente battleships would be able to pop cruisers like balloons but they still woudln't be as strong as Amarr battleships for BS versus BS fleets.



I dunno about that. I do agree that blasters could probably use a small tracking boost, but with all guns getting tracking bonuses (pulse for amarr and increased TE usage due to the falloff bonus for minmatar) small ships will get increasingly useless. A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.

There are already counters to this including neuts, light/med drones, and webs that are already a pain in the ass to deal with. There are already ships designed to kill the class below them, and they are called destroyers and battlecruisers. You already have an advantage over smaller ships via DPS and tank.

Really, they should just make Gallente ships faster. Maybe ALMOST as fast as Minmatar, or keep their current speeds but give them excellent acceleration so that they don't have to waste a lot of time building up speed. They shouldn't be able to catch say, a Vaga/Cyna/SFI but should have reasonable chance (with overheating) to say, catch a shield cane before it gets up to speed on a gate, or simply get in range of other ships before they've taken too much damage.

I think, though it is a ceptor, that the Taranis is a good example of what blaster ships should be like. Before the Dramiel came onto the scene, it was one of the best frigates around, and used blasters. Probably the most used blaster ship. Why? Because it was fast, and could get into range to apply its DPS easily. It also had plenty of structure, almost twice as much as some other ceptors, so it only really needed a DCU for a tank, and thus didn't need to fit plates that slowed it down or shield mods that increased its sig radius. Perhaps other blaster ships should be modeled after the Ranis.

Good speed/agility, but not the best in class - insane DPS for its class, and relying on heavy gank/structure tank to stay alive rather than fitting plates/extenders/reppers, thus allowing blaster ships to maintain their needed speed/agility.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#48 - 2011-10-21 03:30:26 UTC
Make blaster boats able to 'sprint' - that is, go faster than their minmatar counterparts for brief periods of time. There are a ton of possible ways to implement this, but it's the easiest way to give them an option to get into range while ensuring that gallente don't become the new minmatar kiters.

If they can go realllyyy fast but only for a little, they won't overtake minmatar for kiting, but have a fighting chance of getting in range. They can still be kited if you can avoid their intial sprint.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2011-10-21 08:01:55 UTC
Since some people are suggesting all sorts of crazy things:

It could be argued that the problem is not so much blasters but the ships they are on. I have floated the idea before to mak Gallente ships have the best agility in the game while the minmatar keep their traditional speed advantage but get a slight nurf in terms of agility.

This means that while Gallente ships would not be the fastest, they get to speed the fastest and are more maneuverable then any other race. While Minmatar ships, while the fastest, do not have the structure or the power to really get up to speed or maneuver as well.

just a though.

my previous post regarding the role distinction between Projectiles and Hybrids stands.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#50 - 2011-10-21 08:07:48 UTC
Feyona wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I'm afraid ccp will just make them like other weapons about the same range about the same tracking and about the same dps.

IMO they should consider just radically increasing the tracking on blasters. Medium blasters have about the same range as small pulse lasers. Why not give them the same tracking. Same goes with large blasters. Give them the tracking medium pulse lasers have.

This would make them a very interesting weapon. They would still have the problems trying to catch ships kiting outside of scram range. But I actually think that is fairly balanced. Its not all that easy to hold a ship yet stay outside of scram range.

The real problem as I see it when you take a ship with medium or larger blasters you might get caught by a smalller ship that orbits tight making it impossible to hit.

Gallente battleships would be able to pop cruisers like balloons but they still woudln't be as strong as Amarr battleships for BS versus BS fleets.



I dunno about that. I do agree that blasters could probably use a small tracking boost, but with all guns getting tracking bonuses (pulse for amarr and increased TE usage due to the falloff bonus for minmatar) small ships will get increasingly useless. A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.


The ironic thing here is that the short-range weapon system least able to apply DPS to smaller ships is blasters. While Pulse and ACs also have tracking problems close up, they have *some* ability to apply DPS to smaller stuff at range where transversal is greatly reduced, and in Minmatar's case, an ability to reduce transversal via their own mobility. But blasters have neither the tracking nor the range to do this. This lack of flexibility is a real problem with blasters, but if you give blasters extra range then you just have homogenised weapons, and if you give blasters the tracking to hit smaller stuff, then we have smaller stuff wrecks. I don't know if there's a good answer here. Ugh
holding pattern58
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-10-21 22:40:24 UTC
2 part solution -
Give a slight increase in blast/railgun tracking

And here comes the big one - return Gallente ships to the idea of hull tanking, with a twist: Gallente ships would get a speed boost while fitted with reinforced bulkheads and active afterburners, without an increase in agility.

This way Minmitar ships still have the agility advantage but Gallente hulls could get into range more easily - they could speed into range quickly without the ability to turn on a dime: once in range they would have to contend with the increased agility of the other races. Shield blaster ships(Caldari) would be the same as they are now, as they don't have to fit armor plates anyway.

I think this could be an acceptable solution - the tradeoff of a vast speed boost could be countered with the higher agility of another race.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#52 - 2011-10-21 23:07:37 UTC
Feyona wrote:

A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.

There are already counters to this including neuts, light/med drones, and webs that are already a pain in the ass to deal with. There are already ships designed to kill the class below them, and they are called destroyers and battlecruisers. You already have an advantage over smaller ships via DPS and tank.

How about: Frigates are supposed to get under the guns of all turrets except blasters. When they encounter blaster hulls they should kite. Makes for a more interesting game where blasters are feasible and frigates still have a role.
SilentSkills
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-10-21 23:37:14 UTC
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Tweak Grid on gallente boats, and give them a MWD speed boost. Make them SUPER fast in a straight line, but with the agility of a hyperspeed brick. That leaves Minmitar as fast and agile, the rally cars of eve, and gallente the top fuel dragsters...

bump up the damage of blasters to make them be the face meltingly awesome weapons they should be.. Short range, super deeps.



this. please
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-10-22 00:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Machete Visor wrote:
imho, blaster ships should get more drone bonuses to prevent the kiting effect. notice that no one complains about the myrm?


Because there's not much people flying them around, how many do you see every time you're in game?

The ones working almost good are the ones fitting auto canons on them and shield tanking: autos+drones=win
Edit: and the obvious lol double/triple rep fit

Same for dominix, pve with that stuff is 3 CCC rigs and 4/5 cap rechargers and don't even try to fit rails or blasters, fit autos on it and win.

In fact, gallente should have the auto canons and arty's and winmatar drones and hybrids, this would probably make it balanced.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2011-10-22 12:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Feyona wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I'm afraid ccp will just make them like other weapons about the same range about the same tracking and about the same dps.

IMO they should consider just radically increasing the tracking on blasters. Medium blasters have about the same range as small pulse lasers. Why not give them the same tracking. Same goes with large blasters. Give them the tracking medium pulse lasers have.

This would make them a very interesting weapon. They would still have the problems trying to catch ships kiting outside of scram range. But I actually think that is fairly balanced. Its not all that easy to hold a ship yet stay outside of scram range.

The real problem as I see it when you take a ship with medium or larger blasters you might get caught by a smalller ship that orbits tight making it impossible to hit.

Gallente battleships would be able to pop cruisers like balloons but they still woudln't be as strong as Amarr battleships for BS versus BS fleets.



I dunno about that. I do agree that blasters could probably use a small tracking boost, but with all guns getting tracking bonuses (pulse for amarr and increased TE usage due to the falloff bonus for minmatar) small ships will get increasingly useless. A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.

There are already counters to this including neuts, light/med drones, and webs that are already a pain in the ass to deal with. There are already ships designed to kill the class below them, and they are called destroyers and battlecruisers. You already have an advantage over smaller ships via DPS and tank.

Really, they should just make Gallente ships faster. Maybe ALMOST as fast as Minmatar, or keep their current speeds but give them excellent acceleration so that they don't have to waste a lot of time building up speed. They shouldn't be able to catch say, a Vaga/Cyna/SFI but should have reasonable chance (with overheating) to say, catch a shield cane before it gets up to speed on a gate, or simply get in range of other ships before they've taken too much damage.

I think, though it is a ceptor, that the Taranis is a good example of what blaster ships should be like. Before the Dramiel came onto the scene, it was one of the best frigates around, and used blasters. Probably the most used blaster ship. Why? Because it was fast, and could get into range to apply its DPS easily. It also had plenty of structure, almost twice as much as some other ceptors, so it only really needed a DCU for a tank, and thus didn't need to fit plates that slowed it down or shield mods that increased its sig radius. Perhaps other blaster ships should be modeled after the Ranis.

Good speed/agility, but not the best in class - insane DPS for its class, and relying on heavy gank/structure tank to stay alive rather than fitting plates/extenders/reppers, thus allowing blaster ships to maintain their needed speed/agility.



Well this is just making the ships about the same.(here your making speed and agility the same) If you make it so armor thoraxs can reliably catch shield ruptures then there would be no reason to fly ruptures.

The main reason I don't fly thoraxes now is its too easy to get caught by a couple of smaller ships and you will never be able to hit them. If I use gun slots for neuts then its not as good as a rupture. Smaller ships might still try to get under the guns of some ships but they wouldn't want to to it to blaster ships anymore unless they are 2 sizes smaller. If I use 10 small drones instead of the mediums then is not as good as an armor rutpure. Moreover smaller ships easilly kill those drones.

I think having fights where larger ships take on several smaller ships sounds good. But that i just my opinion. Its not like larger ships can catch smaller ships if the smaller ship doesn't want to be caught anyway. But those smaller ships can catch the larger ships.

But my opinion is also that making gallente ships such that they reliably catch kiting minmatar ships is just making the game oe dimensional. Same goes with ideas that make hybrids more like other weapon systems.

Make them diverse.

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Reppyk
The Black Shell
#56 - 2011-10-22 13:13:37 UTC
HakerElite wrote:
You can use a Dictor to set up a block bubble so they cannot warp to you. A block bubble is a bubble somewhere between you and them.
On-grid bubbles don't stop you (unless you're inside ofc). Please try again.

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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-10-22 14:04:43 UTC
That it might be not possible to fix hybrids is an idea i had some time ago as well. Most of the proposed changes would turn hybrids either into lasers, but ones that need ammo and has kinetic damage instead of em, or it would turn them into projectiles, but ones that need cap and have fixed damage types. Thats completely pointless.

Also the "don´t change hybrids, change the ships" approach. Yeah, just make them able to close in fast, where they still can´t hit cr4p without the agility to lessen the tracking problems. Oh, agility too? Great, but if you want to turn the Gallente into Minmatar that badly, why not simply giving them the projectile weapons? Also blasters aren´t the only hybrids. And, well, is it just me or is it really a bad idea to close in as fast as possible with rails? If you just want to change the ships you´re better finding some buff that makes both blasters and rails useful. Good luck with that.Roll

Also there is no area left that isn´t already covered by either lasers or projectiles. One has good alpha, the other good dps; one good optimal, the other good falloff; one uses cap, the other uses ammo; one has instant reload, the other variable damage types; what should a third turret weapon specialize in without either becoming a copy of an existing weapon, become underpowered (for example using both ammo and cap, have both reload time and fixed damage types...) or overpowered (by giving all the advantages and none of the flaws).

Thats the problem with a weapon system that incorporates every existing flaw possible while rejecting every possible advantage. You simply have nothing to work with when it comes to balancing.

If you want to keep hybrids, you practically have to rework all turret weapon systems completely if you want to end up with something where all of them are balanced.

My solution was simpler: give caldari lasers and gallente projectiles (or gallente lasers and caldari projectiles), adjust the ships stats for the use of those weapon systems and get rid of hybrids. Problem solved.Twisted

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#58 - 2011-10-22 15:01:57 UTC
3 things...

1. Reduce fitting req of hybrid weapons

2. Change active tanking bonuses to include cap usage bonus on reps.

3. Nerf Scorch (this is mandatory)
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#59 - 2011-10-30 07:22:02 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
That it might be not possible to fix hybrids is an idea i had some time ago as well. Most of the proposed changes would turn hybrids either into lasers, but ones that need ammo and has kinetic damage instead of em, or it would turn them into projectiles, but ones that need cap and have fixed damage types. Thats completely pointless.

Also the "don´t change hybrids, change the ships" approach. Yeah, just make them able to close in fast, where they still can´t hit cr4p without the agility to lessen the tracking problems. Oh, agility too? Great, but if you want to turn the Gallente into Minmatar that badly, why not simply giving them the projectile weapons? Also blasters aren´t the only hybrids. And, well, is it just me or is it really a bad idea to close in as fast as possible with rails? If you just want to change the ships you´re better finding some buff that makes both blasters and rails useful. Good luck with that.Roll

Also there is no area left that isn´t already covered by either lasers or projectiles. One has good alpha, the other good dps; one good optimal, the other good falloff; one uses cap, the other uses ammo; one has instant reload, the other variable damage types; what should a third turret weapon specialize in without either becoming a copy of an existing weapon, become underpowered (for example using both ammo and cap, have both reload time and fixed damage types...) or overpowered (by giving all the advantages and none of the flaws).

Thats the problem with a weapon system that incorporates every existing flaw possible while rejecting every possible advantage. You simply have nothing to work with when it comes to balancing.

If you want to keep hybrids, you practically have to rework all turret weapon systems completely if you want to end up with something where all of them are balanced.

My solution was simpler: give caldari lasers and gallente projectiles (or gallente lasers and caldari projectiles), adjust the ships stats for the use of those weapon systems and get rid of hybrids. Problem solved.Twisted


I agree with most of what you are saying, but I feel getting rid of them is just a easy cop out. If the only other solution is to nerf the other guns I think they should do it.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#60 - 2011-10-30 09:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
The problem appears to me to indeed be a combination of guns and the ship itself.

The trick is to fix both without adding "extra bonus" abilities to Gallante.

Here are some idea's. A few mentioned or touched on before, others not so much.

Blaster Tweaks: Already in the works.

Rail Tweaks: Already in the works. (Also keep in mind that Caldari ships that could fire easily beyond the current targeting limit already have the advantage that they can use their more damaging lower range ammo compared to other ships at the same ranges).

Gallante Dragsters: Tweek mass to allow gallante ships very fast acceleration. Balance this with lower agility. Do not change their top speed, or at least not much. This also helps Rail boats keep range, but probably slows down changing alignment. Acceleration speed may be tied to agility however, so that may be dodgy.

Drones: Odd, I know, but bear with me. Introduce small and medium webbing drones and increase the speed of large webbing drones. Webbing drones should logically be designed to be the fastest of all the drones in their class. Gallante should be able to leverage this better than the other races, especially if the bonus that some gallante boats get to drone damage and hit points also included a speed bonus in the description. Also the description of the bonus some get for more effective webs could also extend that to webbing drones. Smart bombs as a defense begins to look more attractive again.

Sensor Damp bonus: Not my favorite. Yes, if Gallante got a bonus to their effectiveness it would force people to get closer, but that doesn't help if they simply wish to disengage or you are against multiple opponents. Extra bonuses are not a good option, better to tweak base stats or logically extend current bonuses a bit.

You could also come up with bonuses to decrease the mass penalties of plates and or MWD's, but again extra bonuses are problematic.

As a general note about Gallante and Minmatar web bonuses, typically it has been Gallante based get more effective webs and Matari get longer range. I'd say there could be made a very good case that that should be reversed.

Longer range webs would allow blaster boats to get into range more easily... stronger webs are usually no help because you can't get into range to begin with.

More effective webs would still work well for the Matari as they have more control over the range of the engagement anyway. This would allow them (in a mutual webbing fest) to be even quicker in comparison to their opponent than they would be without mutual webs in effect.

So yes, if anything were to be switched between the two races, make it the web bonuses, not the guns.

Edit: I could also see a case made for switching the preferred Ewar for Gallante and Amarr. Tracking Disruptors make far more sense for Blaster boats, and Sensor Damps are a better option for Pulse Laser boats.

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