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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Odyssey] X-L Weapons Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2013-05-24 07:59:45 UTC
Was my feedback constructive enough? I think it was.
Yet no one from CCP obviously gives a ****.
Unsubscribed from the thread.
iskflakes
#482 - 2013-05-24 08:03:30 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Was my feedback constructive enough? I think it was.
Yet no one from CCP obviously gives a ****.
Unsubscribed from the thread.


Fozzie left this thread on about page 3, making this an announcement not a request for feedback. He does not want to explain why dreadnoughts have received an average nerf to tracking and optimal, or why the phoenix is still terrible.

-

Baracuda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#483 - 2013-05-24 09:03:22 UTC
Fozzie, please explain to us, why you want to nerf titans again.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#484 - 2013-05-24 15:35:15 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Was my feedback constructive enough? I think it was.
Yet no one from CCP obviously gives a ****.
Unsubscribed from the thread.


Fozzie left this thread on about page 3, making this an announcement not a request for feedback. He does not want to explain why dreadnoughts have received an average nerf to tracking and optimal, or why the phoenix is still terrible.



I can explain that.. They do not want dreads to pop battleships so easily. Simple heh?

They fear that making phoenix good against smaller things woudl make it overpowered against large things unless they change missile mechanics. Simple... And anyoen can see that just annalysing metagame

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

iskflakes
#485 - 2013-05-24 17:15:45 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I can explain that.. They do not want dreads to pop battleships so easily. Simple heh?

They fear that making phoenix good against smaller things woudl make it overpowered against large things unless they change missile mechanics. Simple... And anyoen can see that just annalysing metagame


These changes also affect titans, which are unable to shoot battleships, so your explanation doesn't explain the tracking nerf. If it is fozzie's intention to make blapping harder he should answer in the thread and say so.

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J U
SHADOWS ARGUS
#486 - 2013-05-25 06:52:39 UTC
ССР в своём духе. Бараны, что тут сказать....
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#487 - 2013-05-25 13:14:35 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I can explain that.. They do not want dreads to pop battleships so easily. Simple heh?

They fear that making phoenix good against smaller things woudl make it overpowered against large things unless they change missile mechanics. Simple... And anyoen can see that just annalysing metagame


These changes also affect titans, which are unable to shoot battleships, so your explanation doesn't explain the tracking nerf. If it is fozzie's intention to make blapping harder he should answer in the thread and say so.


Are you saying this will be the rise of the sig tanking nano moros? =O

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#488 - 2013-05-25 14:02:43 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I can explain that.. They do not want dreads to pop battleships so easily. Simple heh?

They fear that making phoenix good against smaller things woudl make it overpowered against large things unless they change missile mechanics. Simple... And anyoen can see that just annalysing metagame


These changes also affect titans, which are unable to shoot battleships, so your explanation doesn't explain the tracking nerf. If it is fozzie's intention to make blapping harder he should answer in the thread and say so.



YEs it explains the TRACKIGN NERF. Jsut because they also affect titans doe snto mean that they were nto intended to affect dreads mostly.

Hwy peopel ahve to create such nonsense logic that makes life so much ahrder to understand?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#489 - 2013-05-27 05:30:01 UTC
When will tech 2 weapons be added to the Extra Large weapons class?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2013-05-27 10:54:41 UTC
When they want the meta capital guns to become useless.

The tracking is the nerf I see being the worst. Though they do partially balance this with tracking nerf to Autos, so that lasers aren't as far behind in tracking.

-10km to optimal, in practical terms, means -5km to optimal because people will be using antimatter.
yet falloff increases by 10km... it seems ok to me.
If optimal is not quite enough, buy more meta 2 XL guns for 10% higher optimal (and 10% more damage, and 10% less cap use), make my concord LP in more demand.

However, I really like the suggestion that dreads should be able to move, jut not warp/jump, while sieged.

Falloff is better for moving engagements... if everyone is sitting still, tracking doesn't matter, dictating range is moot, and its simply sitting there, firing at optimal with perfect tracking at a structure or enemy seiged boat.
Alec Freeman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#491 - 2013-05-28 06:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alec Freeman
I like this change Tbh. Would rather more buffs to bring other dreads in line and the phoenix is still broken. The moros still tracks extremely well (moros vs nag either can have better tracking depending on fit) and it still does the most dps at 30km.

All dreads bar phoenix can still blap Bs's with webs (the rev could do it before and its tracking is still slightly less than post need nag / moros albeit you will most likely no longer be able to blap unwebbed bs's at ~50km like you could before which was imbalanced.

Most of the folks in this thread are most likely either not dread pilots or folks who just trained the moros last year because it was the flavour of the month.

Im a nag pilot fyi and I flew them before they where "cool" so im still happy with what I have
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#492 - 2013-05-29 13:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterAl tt1
Still a question, AFAIK you were going to nerf tracking enhancers too. Did you have that nerf in mind when thought of this nerf?

Same moros with enhancers (shield fit, 1 faction), antimatter, Meta guns
Old: New:
Falloff: 65 - 67 as per mouseover. In weapon information: 35.99 - 49.04
Optimal: 29 - 18
Tracking: 0.008918 - 0.007579
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#493 - 2013-05-30 11:24:43 UTC
Fozzie showed during streaming the difference between programming and playing a game.
No way he'll read this forum.
CCP Dev don't even know how's EVE gameplay.
Jon Chninkel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#494 - 2013-06-01 11:30:25 UTC
RIP Moros.

Can't shoot anymore a large POS outside shields with AM... becomes an "attack dread" made for speed an short range DPS ?
Better reprocess it.

More seriously, stop and compare dreads, begin to ask yourself what this class of ships is made for.
SPYDER245
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#495 - 2013-06-01 14:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: SPYDER245
I dont understand all these nerfs and fixes. Shouldn't the idea be that every class of ships should have the same efficiency against the lowers, equal and higher classes as the others ? i.e. dreads should be as effective against battleships as battleships are against cruisers, cruisers against frigs and supercapitals against capitals.

I cannot stop feeling like the last couple years all the changes were directed to favor large alliances using fleets with big numbers of smaller ships.
SourceFour
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
#496 - 2013-06-01 16:23:06 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
wallenbergaren wrote:
Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO.


At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling.
Well longer term hopefully you guys will revisit the POS 'shield' mechanics.

It seems pretty silly that, to shoot the shield, your shots have to magically pass through it to hit the tower beyond - fix that and you fix issues surrounding blasters/drones (of all sizes) right away...



^^ What he said. +1000000000
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#497 - 2013-06-01 16:54:22 UTC
You're getting confused between the tower's shield and its force field.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2013-06-01 19:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I haven't used any dreadnoughts, but I feel a little bit opposed to a tracking nerf for the autocannons. I feel like it would be better to nerf their DPS instead. I see the Naglfar as more of the assault-other-capitals vehicle which should have lower DPS and higher tracking than any other dreadnought, good for slow-moving targets. The Moros should be fine no matter how far you nerf blaster tracking as long as it has top DPS. You don't need tracking to hit a station.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#499 - 2013-06-01 22:46:25 UTC
SPYDER245 wrote:
I dont understand all these nerfs and fixes. Shouldn't the idea be that every class of ships should have the same efficiency against the lowers, equal and higher classes as the others ? i.e. dreads should be as effective against battleships as battleships are against cruisers, cruisers against frigs and supercapitals against capitals.

I cannot stop feeling like the last couple years all the changes were directed to favor large alliances using fleets with big numbers of smaller ships.

I dunno, I see the heirarchy between classes as less of BIG>Medium>small, but rather as each class has a larger ship that counters base class, but due to its size is more vulnerable to the next ship class. So more of a "Battleship>Battlecruiser>Cruiser>Destroyer>Frigate" sort of scenario. I find a Frigate or two can take down a cruiser just fine because the cruiser can't track them well, with exceptions that are more effective at some things than others, of course (SFI, RLM Caracal).

Perhaps if there were a stepping stone between Battleships and Capitals that was perhaps 800m sig radius and met mid way for speed and agility (so at a snails pace, but not continental drift), then it would make sense for Dreads to be a hard counter to that.

But to simply outclass an entire "tier" of ships? I don't think that's quite fair.

Jon Chninkel wrote:
RIP Moros.

Can't shoot anymore a large POS outside shields with AM... becomes an "attack dread" made for speed an short range DPS ?
Better reprocess it.

More seriously, stop and compare dreads, begin to ask yourself what this class of ships is made for.


Perhaps if it's only supposed to be for bashing structures and stationary capitals, they should bring back the old tracking penalty when sieged, but make it even larger. Maybe an 80% tracking penalty, but a 60% range increase when sieged? Would that make you happy? You'd be able to shoot a POS through the bubble from in optimal with Antimatter, after all, there's no such thing as other types of ammo.

By the way, this picture was linked earilier in the thread by Deerin here. It shows the changes in Moros damage post patch. The lime green line is the Old Moros, the red line is the New Moros. At 35km you're dealing more damage than the old Moros with AM. Lets not even get into the discussion about how you can change to other types of ammo to still outdamage the other dreads, but at even larger ranges.

Also, since I doubt you always have all your Moros humping the bubble when POS smashing, and it can be assumed you're at around 35km from the POS, you're really not losing any DPS, and any range over that is where you begin to outdamage the old Moros.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#500 - 2013-06-01 22:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Jon Chninkel wrote:
RIP Moros.

Can't shoot anymore a large POS outside shields with AM...


How fortunate for you then that there is a complete range of XL-sized hybrid charges to choose from, including such flavorful options as Iridium, Thorium, Tungsten and Lead!

In fact, there are even XL-sized railguns if you'd prefer to keep your Antimatter! It's not exactly like they're useful on any other dread.