Player Features and Ideas Discussion

A proposal post. I have posted this in active topics. More centered on discussion.

The scenario:

Corporation Alpha declares war on corporation Omega, for whatever reason. John, a member of Omega, wishes to avoid this and decides to move to another corporation (NPC or Player, doesn't matter).

Corporation Alpha is upset, because it feels that John, a supporting member of Omega who will most likely return when the war is over, is avoiding due process of game mechanics, specifically the declaration of war and the ship-to-ship combat it can provide for it's many possible reasons (asset denial, mercenary contract, insult or disrespect, territory control, market control, and/or emergent content).

John of Omega is upset because he does not wish to engage in that ship-to-ship combat with Alpha, for many possible reasons (non-combat character, newer character, high-sp character, non-aggressive player, limited play times, and/or resistant to emergent content).



The common solutions:

Most suggest that John of Omega is still at war and should either have the corporation attributes altered to show that he is still at war with another corporation, no matter where he moves. While this does seem to be the simplest approach, it also means that his new corp would have issues providing him support (as in some cases, it rightfully should be able to) without being Concorded. John of Omega's personal combat flags are interfered with by his allegiances and standard combat mechanics.

Others contest that John of Omega should be prevented from moving, or at the very least charged a fee. This runs into issues with corporate spies and griefers, legitimate individuals you would wish to have removed from corp during a war, being able to prevent their removal and cause more problems.



My propositions:

Suggestion 1 - Overkill: Provide corporation Alpha with killrights on John which last until the war would officially be up. These are not extended if the war between corporation Alpha and Omega are extended. The kill rights are attached to the original declaration contract only. They are automatically granted, and are not 'one use', and available to the declaring corporation/alliance and it's members only. They cannot be traded to third parties.

Suggestion 2 - Long Memories: Provide corporation Alpha with a single killright on John from Omega, which lasts as long as a normal killright and behaves like a normal killright. Not tied to the war dec in any way beyond it's initial rewarding. Doesn't require any drastic changes to the war dec mechanics. This kill right could be accepted by any member of the alliance/corporation, and if a CEO/Executor makes the killright public, could be sold and traded.



Your thoughts?

why do you care if John leaves corp? you have a whole to corp/alliance shoot up for however long you want the war to run.

- For the reasons I listed: asset denial, mercenary contract, insult or disrespect, territory control, market control, and/or emergent content. These are events that each member of a corporation take part in by association, at the very least.



Don't dec bear corps in empire. I am sure you can find many empire crews who will happily engage you in pvp. Here is a good start, find corp tags of the usual 4-4 nut swingers. You'd be ahead on this one, you'd know they undock for pvp even.

- Awfully insulting of you. I can see you want an educated discussion. Suffice it to say, EVERY individual who undocks is ready to engage in pvp. But it goes beyond that. If you are mission running? You are selling loot that hurts my mission running loot selling. If you are mining, your hurting my mining profit. If you are simply camping in station trading off known market hubs, you are still affecting me.

And by affecting me, my possible actions to affect you back are numerous. Ship to ship combat is simply one form, and it has many varieties. I could suicide gank you, I could awox you, I could war dec you. And honestly, in the event that you are a better miner, or manufacturer, than me ... why would I not choose the form of combat that best suits my strengths.

That is simply playing smart. Your focusing on what your good at, and I (representing the proverbial pvper) am focusing on what I'm good at, all in the sake of competition and fair play.



Go to 0.0.....don't even need war decs if an nbsi crew. No gate guns either. If you don't mind gun well then low sec it

- A perfectly viable option, unless I too choose hisec as my area of residence. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to play the game in hisec if I want pvp? Because if so, this is a fundamental idiological difference between many new and older players.

PvP is in every part of EvE. It's not to be shunted to some other place.



Gank John. hate a man enough to track him down like this...why half ass it. Better the death comes from out of nowehere for the surpirse factor. I got a short list of people I would gank on sight and pod if possible. Loss of ship worth the lols and the satisfaction.

- It's not specifically about John, though. It's about Johns association with that corporation. About how John will almost inevitably end back in the same corporation. Or worse, about how John abandoned his allies in their most dire time. So while the actual individual isn't important to the issue, the issue is.



I am happy you have found a corp you like and contiue to stay in. Others have not. They leave from one corp to another because of various things like the ceo is a ****. Why should something follow from that corp they hated and left for those reasons and have no intention of coming back?

- I agree here, completely. As well, preventing players from leaving corps during a war is a recipe for disaster. We've had corp wars turn completely around because of the booting of one 'suspicious' individual.

But, it's again a matter of association. Short term, surely. But it adds accountability to our choice in partners, good or bad.



Also how do you factor in John leaving corp to join the other side. He'd have killrights never claimed short of awoxing. And you don't need kill rights to awox lol.

- If he did, then Corporation Alpha wouldn't have any need to act on those killrights, no? And correct me here, but do kill rights last forever?

Your revealing your entire hand here. 'Egos are bruised', 'beat up on care bear', 'belittling nature'.

You have, through a matter of habit most likely, become a very discriminatory individual who feels that insulting these players and their playstyle, as well as insinuating their personal motivations are based on bad social skills or even emotional imbalance, shown that you yourself do not understand their playstyle, and choose instead to cast judgement.

Maybe you feel this is okay, because you've seen enough references to 'carebears' and 'wussies' by obviously immature players that you actually have decided to mimick them. Or maybe you are more part of the problem, then the cure.



At it's core, there are a large variety of options for players seeking player versus player ship-to-ship combat. You pointed out a few yourself. But the reality is that it doesn't take a nulsec corp to declare war. It can be a hisec corp, too. It can be a single player.

The actual reasons behind hisec wars are so much more varied and detailed, that CCP has decided year after year to refuse to remove them. Do players use war dec's to intentionally pick fights with smaller, less prepared corporations? Certainly, and only an idiot would say that it didn't happen.

But do those same mechanics allow for many other forms of gameplay that no other game out there can come close to? Also a certainty.



And to rehash an earlier statement, why can't a corporation choose a target to fight that it can win against? Every day fleets retreat or engage due to their personal perception of their odds of winning. This is considered intelligent gameplay. But when it happens in hisec, it's somehow referred to as cowardice or cruelty.

Do you choose to mine or mission less, to give fair chance to those in other corps who may be less equipped than you?

I would assume it's something to do with the following:

A) Because it's fun. and B) because bears like you post tears like this.

There seem to be quite a few threads complaining that it's "too easy" for a pilot or whole corp to avoid wardecs, either by leaving the corp or disbanding the corp and making a new one.

These complaints ring exactly as loudly as do the ones from indy corps that cry about having their exhumers ganked on a regular basis.

It all boils down to "waaaa, the other guy isn't doing what I want him to do so I can have fun." It's a question of attitude and mindset, not changing the game mechanics so the other guy is forced to play the game the way YOU want him to.

Well, let's take the 'killing for cruel fun' motive that so many seem to attach to these, and let's look at the wild variety of practical motivations for the war dec, and why John of Omega is responsible for them.



- Corporation Alpha has lived in the system it's in for a long time. They mine and mission in peace. Then on day Corporation Omega moves in. Corporation Omega likes to run mining operations where they strip mine belts completely, and worse, they are an earlier timezone than Alpha. Alpha can choose to move. But Alpha chooses to war dec Omega, because Alpha is full of proficient pvpers and they wish to push Omega out of the zone. When John leaves Omega, he doesn't leave the system. Him and a dozen or more former Omega members stay around, forming a new corp.

Alpha's legal alternatives, war, become limited unless they wish to declare war on all of the destination corps, or begin suicide ganking. But it's possible that by suicide ganking, their once secure system will be infested with others who feel it's 'fun'. And in the meantime, Alpha's money is wasted and it's also possible they don't even have the manpower to suicide gank a boosting orca. Most corps don't fly with that many members in the first place.

In the in, because he can avoid war, John has prevented emergent gameplay. He is only one in many, but he is stating that unless your willing to break the law and become a criminal, you're not allowed to touch him.


- Corporation Alpha is hired by corporation Charlie to attack corporation Omega. The reason? Irrelevant. Possibly a former corp member who was wronged, or even insult. Maybe the situation above, or maybe no reason at all. Alpha declares it's war dec, and when over 90% of the corporation leave due to an abuse of the mechanics, they are left not being able to meet the goals set by Charlie on the number of ships needed to be destroyed, assets removed, etc.


- Again, the worst part is that these individuals, when they leave their corp mates, will most likely return later. Signing back up when the war is over. Because to them, it's simply about preventing the system from legally allowing them to be shot at. They don't care how fair the fight is, or whether the attacking party is actually made of newer players, or whether there is a direct result in the game.

They have already demonized these individuals, by referring them to bullies and wishing harm on them in real life. They are upset because they didn't pick the fight and the battleground, and rage quit. The kid in the school yard who swears up and down that he can't be shot because he's behind the imaginary car.

Those individuals ruin the mechanics. But instead of completely taking away the capability, because I've mentioned it has other uses, just take away the complete safety of it.

If you can leave the corp and avoid the war, at least you can't avoid retribution for it.

It's been a common complaint brought up over and again. It fits right in there with those wanting pvp-less space, those hating ganking, those wanting cloaks removed, those fighting to prevent local from giving them away, and those wanting to train two characters on the same account.

Only, every now and again CCP decides to fix or change something. Like the training two characters bit. Or can-flipping. Or nano HAC's. Every now and again, an issue is there, glaringly obvious, but most of us are so accustomed to it that it's simply bread into the game.

I'm proposing a solution that I feel would reduce cries on two fronts of the same argument, but I know wouldn't get rid of them. I don't want war dec's turned into something that cannot be used on a case by case basis, and I don't like the ability for corp members to simply 'quit', as it instills no responsibility for the corp itself. So, I proposed a different solution than what I've seen.

Probably one of the most well-reasoned posts about how wardecs are "intended" to work between two corporations. +1 internets to you, sir.

Omega keeps one alt in it's original corporation. Do this about four times, and you've got enough corps to circle a war dec entirely.

But why corp hop when you can have a public channel and simply jump into an npc corp?



- The war dec mechanics are working as intended.

- The leaving corp mechanics are working as intended.

All I'm arguing is if the combination of the two mechanics are still working as intended.

Or maybe I wish to display that, with the new kill rights mechanics, the old issue of not being able to involve former corp members as war targets without completely upsetting the ally and war dec mechanics are no longer as prominent, and since there is a simpler solution available, it might be time for CCP to reevaluate the situation.