These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Shields ability to 1 slot tank Incursions is killing Incursion tank balance between shields/armour

Author
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#41 - 2013-05-18 03:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Paikis wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
I am calling you out on that BS fit:
WTF are the resistances on that ??? Its sig radius + explosive hole are HUGE!!!
POOF!


Resists: 77.6 / 70.8% / 70.6% / 73.1%
Armour HP: 18688 (no implants)
eHP: 92,213

WHAT explosive hole? The sig radius is quite large, but that is an unfortunate side-effect of being a marauder.

Voith wrote:
He basically requires a full set of HG implants, and a full minklinked Damnation for make it work.


Implants aren't required, they just make it better. Yes, I have an OGB, why wouldn't I use it?

explosive 73.1? really? 92k paladin in my experience is trouble!
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#42 - 2013-05-18 03:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
DarthNefarius wrote:
explosive 73.1? really? 92k paladin in my experience is trouble!


Promise. Amarr T2 resists are made of win. I agree that it is light on tank, but absolutely doable. I wouldn't do it in a fleet where I didn't know the logi though. No reason why you can't drop the TE and bump the tank up to 121k with an IN EANM. You do lose 3km optimal though, and some tracking.

The Paladin is literally an Armour Nightmare, except it has slightly less tracking and more tank. but you can change that around by swapping a tank mod for a tracking mod, no probs.

Paikis wrote:
Voith wrote:
When your balance argument is "The people who use the things I use are just superior players, unlike our competitors who are just bads" it is a good indication you are wrong.

You did a great job of convincing me that Armor fleets need a buff.


Except he's right. Armour fleets are fine, and I fly in one. The actual 'problem' armour fleets face is one of perception. This perception is based on a few things;

1. There are few pilots and even fewer FCs in the armour communities.
2. Because of 1, the handful of fleets that do get running are forced to take ****-fit T1 battleships with meta4 guns and only 1-2 damage mods because their pilots have to over-tank due to poor skills and lack of OGBs. They also frequently have 3 logis, further reducing their damage potential.
3. Because of 2, most armour fleets actually ARE crap.
4. Because of 3, pilots and FCs leave to shield fleets (this causes 1, and it continues)
5. Because of 4, shield fleets have a much larger pool of pilots to recruit from and can afford to only take the shiny ships piloted by pilots with good skills.
6. Because of 5, shield fleets actually ARE better, and so the myth-fact is continued.

Self fulfilling prophecy. Shield fleets are literally better because they are perceived to be better. The few times I've been in a fleet with proper OGBs and a good fleet makeup, we won every contest of the sites (VGs because 1) and we were pushing 4 minute pay to pay times.

Until armour fleets are perceived to be better than shields, they will continue to be worse than shields. People constantly shouting about how CCP hate armour are just making the problem worse, especially when they use selectively cherry-picked incorrect claims to do it. A ship with an invul field and 3 rigs is NOT a 1-slot tank. It is a 4-slot tank.


Quoting myself so we can get back on topic and stop arguing about fits and how good or bad they are.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-05-18 09:27:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Complaining about the cost of that armor fit, when the 1 slot shield tanks are using a 2 bill invuln and another ~300 mill or so of tech 2 rigs, on a 1 bill hull, isn't much of an argument...

I would also caution against calling a rig slot= to a module slot, I'd value module slots higher

With a few exceptions, T2 modules have more potent effects than their rig counterparts
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#44 - 2013-05-19 00:43:11 UTC
One slot tank..no such thing What?

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-05-19 04:43:15 UTC
Darth, your community is very friendly to noobies, which is a good thing so don't stop doing it, but you really can't talk until you put out highly shiny/optimal fleets and still get beat by shield fleets.

The armor Mach fit I posted is just as good as a shield fitted Mach.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#46 - 2013-05-19 10:21:56 UTC
io . Paikis is correct . DarthNefarius unfortunately so far you do not have what it takes to be a top end Incursions FC / Advisor .

HQ's .100k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .
VG's .60k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .

Before you continue to spout your loud words - ISN uses such tank for over a year now .

Best regards
Kodavor .
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#47 - 2013-05-19 21:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Paikis wrote:


It gets 20+17km range with IN MF and with Scorch gives 1142 DPS at 59+17kms. High Grade slaves give it 129,347 eHP, this is MORE than enough for logis to keep you up. Heck, you could spider tank this with no logis, although this will never happen due to :lazy:


To quote our almighty FC: "We only have our Logis because we need the links and like to have them in voice because we like to chat." Smile

It actually did happen during logi disconnects, zero **** was given(halve of the gang are logi pilots to and know the routine). Cool

Paikis wrote:

My EFT warrioring that is backed up by actually HAVING those implants and a perfect OGB alt w/ mindlink? My EFT warrioring that has actually been in a fleet of those Paladins and seen what they can do?


The first rule about the Paladin club is: We don't speak about the Paladin club. P

@DarthNefarius The core difference is that if you spread 90% webs and shoot by overview velocity stats, you hardly need any sustained RR ability's because tamas will not survive 20s(halve of them die before they get to web range, the rest 5s later after the 90% web done the job). I can keep the fleet alive in a single Oneiros. It is basically as strong as a 5.5+1 guardian for RR stats while using 4 links with my fitting. If you key bind overloading, reps and drones to mouse buttons, it can nearly compete with a dual 4-2 guardian setup in burst situations. The key is actually to have logis that are on top of her game, quite similar to one slot tanked shield gangs.

Ludus used a similar tactic for Assaults 1.5 years ago, building the fleet with a core group of Paladins, going BS heavy and hammering shield fleets down with tachyon alpha(we had zero close range fitted BS, every BS was a sniper, every sub 28km target got webed down to kill it with sniper fittings, Legions where max gank fitted to get the job done just as fast in split sites as the BS). Currently we have payback time in many contests against Tach/1400mm shield setups and armor blitz gangs are adjusting.

The key to win contests are good dps pilots(that get armor/structure hits, do focus fire and don't fire at stuff they can't hit) not so much if you use 1 or 2 slots for tank or go armor or shield with your fleet.

Btw, I did run one slot tanked Legions back in the days for 120s NCO running. Cool
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-05-19 22:42:17 UTC
Not sure if rat escalation ehp should be rolled back, incursions shouldn't be easy. But the incoming dps nerf should definitely be rolled back for that very reason. One slot tank boats should be dead in any site except Scouts.

In the first incursions back on Sisi we had to use boosted armor hacs staying on the move to just run vgs, any large BS, even armor ones, would pop. And even then it was hairy. CCP should never had made incursions so safe they can be steamrolled with 1 slot shield tank BS.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#49 - 2013-05-19 23:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
It actually didn't get nerfed this much. The difference is mostly that people know what to shoot first and logis with 1000+ sites on her back are in a position where everything but wtf moments is boring daily routine.

As example I am pretty sure that halve of the logis where semi afk as I lost a mega with T1 fitting and massive EM/Termal holes in non existing buffer during a Assault site. I can tell for sure that the 2 logis I know and I got overloaded reps on this thing even before he did manage to push the broadcast button(the armor jumped back and forth like crazy). P
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-05-19 23:21:18 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
It actually didn't get nerfed this much. The difference is mostly that people know what to shoot first and logis with 1000+ sites on her back are in a position where everything but wtf moments are boring daily routine.

As example I am pretty sure that halve of the logis where semi afk as I lost a mega with T1 fitting and massive EM/Termal holes in non existing buffer during a Assault site. I can tell for sure that the 2 logis I know and I got overloaded reps on this thing even before he did manage to push the broadcast button(the armor jumped back and forth like crazy). P


Incoming dps got nerfed by a huge amount, both during the move from Sisi to live and post live. If you didn't notice, it's just that you jumped on the bandwagon later on after it's easy.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#51 - 2013-05-20 00:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
sabre906 wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
It actually didn't get nerfed this much. The difference is mostly that people know what to shoot first and logis with 1000+ sites on her back are in a position where everything but wtf moments are boring daily routine.

As example I am pretty sure that halve of the logis where semi afk as I lost a mega with T1 fitting and massive EM/Termal holes in non existing buffer during a Assault site. I can tell for sure that the 2 logis I know and I got overloaded reps on this thing even before he did manage to push the broadcast button(the armor jumped back and forth like crazy). P


Incoming dps got nerfed by a huge amount, both during the move from Sisi to live and post live. If you didn't notice, it's just that you jumped on the bandwagon later on after it's easy.


Back in the days of mixed gangs I literally had untanked, semi afk logis to work with and tons of ships with super slim buffers and massive resistance holes. I even multi boxed(logi+dps+fc) this gangs just to get something running. The reason why Incursion is easy this days is that you work mostly with good setups and people that know what they are doing.

How much could a logi handle back in the days? I know I could only do halve of what I can do today. Current standard on a good logi pilot is 2.5-3k DPS per logi, if you really push it(you can do VGs without even use heat as a single logi). If you compare this to normal setups that people used back in the day, it is 50-100% more RR done per logi with pilots in them that can manage to catch even drones or non posters in HQ fleets.

Bottom line is, if you compare logis back in the days to current ones, it is like comparing apples to oranges, since incursion logis with routine are not just a little better than the people back in the days, they can handle a lot more dps and are fluid enough that glass cannon setups became no issue at all.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#52 - 2013-05-20 08:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Paikis wrote:
Here is a Paladin fit that reaches 1400dps (6% implants), has 110,532 eHP (using only low-grade slaves in 1-5, no Omega, and an OGB Legion w/ mindlink) and 2 tanking mods. Please note; THIS IS AN ACTUAL 2-SLOT TANK.

Paladin wrote:

Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Energy Transfer Array
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Garde II x3


It gets 20+17km range with IN MF and with Scorch gives 1142 DPS at 59+17kms. High Grade slaves give it 129,347 eHP, this is MORE than enough for logis to keep you up. Heck, you could spider tank this with no logis, although this will never happen due to :lazy:


I use a very similar setup with no slaves at all, I have a Faction TE, true sansha web, a T2 Trimark + T2 Burst and then 2 reps and no drone link since Gardes cant hit past about 50k any way. 96K EHP and I have not died yet, I also Leeroy into most sites and I always take agro (Sansha hate me).

When Sori Fleet is full of Pallys it does well against the Shield Fleets there just not enough active armour pilots to keep fleet at optimal all the time.

The big problem with Armour VS shield for INCs is pilot perception. After the Nerf a lot of pilots left , shields had a bigger base to start with so they still had a lot of good pilots left so they could still have shiny fleets once people started to come back there was a perception that armour was not as good since most of the fleets running where crappy so a lot of the good pilots swapped to shields (as suggested by Turelus earlier in this thread).

Pilot starts Incs in Armour
Pilot get fleet cos they will take anyone.
Pilot gets rolled by super shiny Shields
Pilot takes its like a man cos Shields will not take them
Pilot gets good/shiny
Pilot moves to Shields - perpetuating the perception that shields are better.

Quote:
HQ's .100k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .
VG's .60k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .


Those same numbers don't really apply to Armour since the reps land later
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#53 - 2013-05-20 09:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Well nothing stops you form flying both shield and armor, I guess. I do and I think the hole armor vs shield war is silly and some FCs consider it more a personal vendetta instead just 2 different fleet setups.

In my opinion, if you have proficient dps pilots, good logis, a good fleet discipline and keep the fleet running, it doesn't matter this much what you fly.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-05-20 11:32:37 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
It actually didn't get nerfed this much. The difference is mostly that people know what to shoot first and logis with 1000+ sites on her back are in a position where everything but wtf moments are boring daily routine.

As example I am pretty sure that halve of the logis where semi afk as I lost a mega with T1 fitting and massive EM/Termal holes in non existing buffer during a Assault site. I can tell for sure that the 2 logis I know and I got overloaded reps on this thing even before he did manage to push the broadcast button(the armor jumped back and forth like crazy). P


Incoming dps got nerfed by a huge amount, both during the move from Sisi to live and post live. If you didn't notice, it's just that you jumped on the bandwagon later on after it's easy.


Back in the days of mixed gangs I literally had untanked, semi afk logis to work with and tons of ships with super slim buffers and massive resistance holes. I even multi boxed(logi+dps+fc) this gangs just to get something running. The reason why Incursion is easy this days is that you work mostly with good setups and people that know what they are doing.

How much could a logi handle back in the days? I know I could only do halve of what I can do today. Current standard on a good logi pilot is 2.5-3k DPS per logi, if you really push it(you can do VGs without even use heat as a single logi). If you compare this to normal setups that people used back in the day, it is 50-100% more RR done per logi with pilots in them that can manage to catch even drones or non posters in HQ fleets.

Bottom line is, if you compare logis back in the days to current ones, it is like comparing apples to oranges, since incursion logis with routine are not just a little better than the people back in the days, they can handle a lot more dps and are fluid enough that glass cannon setups became no issue at all.


That is long post nerf. Like I said, you jumped on the bandwagon later on once it got easy. Your mixed gang wouldn't even come close to surviving in incursion's original state on SiSi.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#55 - 2013-05-20 12:49:17 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
Shields ability to 1 slot tank Incursions is killing armour Incursion balance

It's literally beyond impossible to 1-slot tank and Incursion. The only REAL difference between the types is this:

SHIELD: Higher DPS output (if) there are enough in fleet with free mids for Webs. EHP must be slightly higher due to Sig bloom.

ARMOR: Faster movement (easier to fit Prop) + utility like dual Webs/TP/etc at a lower DPS output. EHP can be lower.




the dps is the same.

and with the up comming tracking nerf things are gonna be back in ballance
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#56 - 2013-05-20 13:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Andrew Indy wrote:
Quote:
HQ's .100k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) . VG's .60k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .

Those same numbers don't really apply to Armour since the reps land later


This is all rather misleading, the emphasis should be on how much 'Shield' or 'Armor' you have, total EHP is useless in terms of logistics. I run with 12k shield, as that is the only part my logi can fix it is also the only part I put my emphasis on. I know with 70% resist that I can take approximately a 30k(room)volley before I need to panic: in a room that is producing 3k to 5k (Room)dps that gives me 3 seconds to broadcast and the logis have 4 to 8 seconds to get reps on me.

The same is true for armor but add the 3 to 4 seconds for the cycles to finish. So by that supposition I would say armor needs and extra 3 second buffer to compensate for the cycle time, or an additional 1k armor for every 3k (Room) DPS per second of buffer needed.

The main problem I have seen is Overtanking. I have seen pilots X up for fleet in ships with 25k or more shield points (not even going to mention a 35k armor Buffer I saw a few weeks ago). This is wasted resources it is synonymous with bringing 10k rounds of ammo on a one shot suicide gank. You should tank for logistics, and if you don't trust the logistics to save you then you're in the wrong fleet. Additional tank is always at the expense of additional Gank and if your not fielding 10k (ship)dps in these VG sites nowadays then you are going to lose in a contest, and once an FC smells blood in the water you will be contested out of the system.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#57 - 2013-05-20 17:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Goldiiee wrote:
Andrew Indy wrote:
Quote:
HQ's .100k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) . VG's .60k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .

Those same numbers don't really apply to Armour since the reps land later


This is all rather misleading, the emphasis should be on how much 'Shield' or 'Armor' you have, total EHP is useless in terms of logistics. I run with 12k shield, as that is the only part my logi can fix it is also the only part I put my emphasis on. I know with 70% resist that I can take approximately a 30k(room)volley before I need to panic: in a room that is producing 3k to 5k (Room)dps that gives me 3 seconds to broadcast and the logis have 4 to 8 seconds to get reps on me.

The same is true for armor but add the 3 to 4 seconds for the cycles to finish. So by that supposition I would say armor needs and extra 3 second buffer to compensate for the cycle time, or an additional 1k armor for every 3k (Room) DPS per second of buffer needed.
.


The armour's need of more buffer takes away another low slot. HQ's especially the MOM's fighter bomber waves really make the need to buffer 1.5-2 cycles more due to the end of cycle waits.


Paikis wrote:
Voith wrote:
When your balance argument is "The people who use the things I use are just superior players, unlike our competitors who are just bads" it is a good indication you are wrong.

You did a great job of convincing me that Armor fleets need a buff.


(snip)

1. There are few pilots and even fewer FCs in the armour communities.


Until the ESCALATION nerf there were almost always more shield fleets but armour was still competing.
We were chugging along quite strong & although the legion MOM fleets sucked the MOMs were doable.
The escalation nerf nearly killed the armour community weakening our site completion times in every site, VG, Assult & HQ (except maybe the MOM) much,MUCH worse then the shield fleets thanks to thier stonger abilities to fit more low slot damage mods & TE's;due to the added crusier/BS NPC eHP(especially the MARA in OTAs (which seemed to remote repair itself) that got taken out/FIXED becuase the Wall of OTA screams for 3 months ) & taking out of triggers, creating a spiral of lowering of numbers and skills.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Calgrissom Torvec
#58 - 2013-05-20 18:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Calgrissom Torvec
If it make you feel better darth CCP is nerf batting Shield ships with the TE nerf. Armor should be happy now that your scripted TC ships just jumped ahead in the game a bit.

Also lets not forget on and armor BS ship you have 10-15k of shield buffer to give your logi time to get you locked and repped. If a shield ship isn't locked and repped before it runs into armor it can be a bad day for the pilot a good portion of the time.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#59 - 2013-05-20 19:44:50 UTC
Calgrissom Torvec wrote:
If it make you feel better darth CCP is nerf batting Shield ships with the TE nerf. Armor should be happy now that your scripted TC ships just jumped ahead in the game a bit.

Also lets not forget on and armor BS ship you have 10-15k of shield buffer to give your logi time to get you locked and repped. If a shield ship isn't locked and repped before it runs into armor it can be a bad day for the pilot a good portion of the time.


The shield buffer for armour logi in HQ's is non existant ( assaults barely ).
I honestly doubt the 1/2 TE nerf will change much.
If the OGB boosts get nerfed by requiring them to be on grid things may then change.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#60 - 2013-05-20 21:35:32 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
snip
MUCH worse then the shield fleets thanks to thier stonger abilities to fit more low slot damage mods & TE's;due to the added crusier/BS NPC eHP(especially the MARA in OTAs (which seemed to remote repair itself) that got taken out/FIXED becuase the Wall of OTA screams for 3 months ) & taking out of triggers, creating a spiral of lowering of numbers and skills.


Go look at that Paladin fit I posted above. Note that it has 4 heat sinks on it. Note also that it has a TE and 2 TCs, and it also has a T2 damage rig. Granted it is pretty shiny, and it requires an OGB and semi-competent logi to work, but it works, and it is an incursion fit. I've seen MUCH shinier fits than that

4 Heat Sinks and a damage rig. That is so far into diminishing returns that adding another would be completely worthless. Hell, I've had your FCs telling me that the 4th heat sink is a waste. 3 tracking mods is also pretty far into diminishing returns, especially once you get a tracking link from a logi. That makes 5 damage mods and 4 (TE/2xTC/Link) tracking mods. Anything more is a waste of slots.

I'd love to know how these shield ships are fitting more tracking mods and more damage mods, I really would. To any shield pilots who ARE fitting more tracking and damage mods; Stop it, you're bad. Go learn about module stacking.

Also, why does ships having more HP affect armour more than shields? Do shields have guns that do a % of target hp as damage or something? Because unless they do, I can't see any hp increase affecting armour more than shields.