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Shields ability to 1 slot tank Incursions is killing Incursion tank balance between shields/armour
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Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#21 - 2013-05-17 10:03:17 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
fit TCs instead of webs/painters

then you're only helping yourselves :D


TC's TE's fit in low slots which are filled with tank & DPS mods for armour. How about a specialized mid slot DPS mod CCP? You Gave shields a low slot tracking enhancer with the TC where's the reciprocity?

edit: FIXED

Which is why the other guy said fit tracking computers! Sorry but your argument was pretty much destroyed by the two fittings putting out the same DPS.
I also go back to my point of saying if shield is so much better... use it!

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-05-17 12:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Cipher Jones wrote:
2/10.

One slot, seriously?


DeLindsay wrote:
It's literally beyond impossible to 1-slot tank and Incursion. The only REAL difference between the types is this:


Actually, he is serious.... if he is not including rigs, and is not talking about HQs or assaults

If you are receiving max skilled boosts from a Command ship (or even better T3, but in anticipation of the change, command ship boosts are being used by the group I run with, they work fine), then the following tank on a NM is more than enough provided you have competent logis:

Rigs:
1x CDF II (though some in the group say this can be dropped)
1x EM II (though some say an EM I is good enough... anticipating a desire to drop an elutriation rig after laser cap use is changed, and add a ROF rig)

Slots:
1x Pith A type Invuln

Done for VGs, for HQs, use another slot for a DCII, and watch for local spikes... We used to use an LSE, but have found its not needed


Basically, the Deadpspace invulns are much more potent than deadspace EANMsII

CCP seems to have trouble with ratios (5% cycle time reduction != 5% rof bonus, for example)
If I multiple resists by x% for one module, and then do the same for another module, they aren't neccessarily improved by the same amount.
An extreme example would be increasing resists by 10% on a 90% resist module vs a 10% resist module.

90+ 9 = 99% resist -> (100-90)/(100-99)= 10/1= 10x more EHP and effective rep rate
10+1 = 11% resist -> (100-10)/(100-11)= 90/89 = 1.011x more EHP and effective rep rate.

In short, Deadspace EANMs are underpowered.

T1 vs T2 EANMs only change by 5% base resists (15 vs 20), and T2 invuln only change by 5% resists... but that doesn't make the T2 EANMs as much of an improvement over the T1 EANMs as the T2 hardener is over the T1
Just as a going from a 95% resist to a 100% resist would be a much larger improvment.


CCP fails at ratios, and the deadspace EANMs suck in comparison to deadspace invulns.
This doesn't affect anything outside of where bling is fitted (ie capitals and incursions)... but I'm not sure buffing deadspace EANMs on capitals would be a good thing, given how potent armor is already
Brian VNF
Tax Evasion PLC
#23 - 2013-05-17 13:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Brian VNF
It would be impossible to fiddle with ships/bonuses/armor/skills for incursions without screwing up something for someone doing something else (that "some" inception).

As we all know, EVE does not revolve around Incursions, so incs get the short end of the stick.

As Verity pointed out, most shield communities run with 3 tank mods (counting rigs) on a t1 battleship (Yes, i know it's pirate, but for the resists purposes, it's still t1).

On armor, you have to plug 2 resist holes, while shields have to plug just 1. Add to that the bonuses from Invulns compared to EANM's, add to that the price difference (c-type pith invuln is 500 mil -ish, for the almost same result you need an a-type EANM, which is 1 bil), and after that add the training time required for the armor compensations, and there you have the equation which shows why armor is so unpopular.

Also, keep in mind that with armor you need a slightly higher buffer because of the way logi works. Shield transfers apply their effect at the beginning of the cycle. Armor reps repair at the end, so you need a bit more tank to account for.

You can still run with 2 EANM's and a slave set, which will probably put you ahead in EFT EHP compared to shields, but it will be iffy to keep alive, as most damage comes from torpedoes, which do kin/expl damage.

This is just for modules. Ships on the other hand is a completely different story.
Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-05-17 14:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasha Saisima
Armor Machs look pretty good to me and you can still improve on the armor fit a bit. Armor fits get an extra mod for tank where shield fits dont'

http://imageshack.us/a/img706/1746/machr.png

all skills at 5 where armor gets LG Slaves
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-05-17 17:36:38 UTC
In short, if deadspace EANMs were buffed, then armor could probably get away with 1 module, 2 rig tanks as well, but if deadspace EANMs were buffed, then on the capital level, armor vs shield would be even more imbalanced (from what I hear, Armor> shield for caps, though I don't fly caps)
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#26 - 2013-05-17 18:44:11 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
2/10.

One slot, seriously?


Almost & a couple rigs for Vanguards.
The real disadvantage is the rep at end of cycle requiring more armour buffer unless EVERY1 in fleet has HG SLAVES.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#27 - 2013-05-17 18:47:15 UTC
Turelus wrote:

I also go back to my point of saying if shield is so much better... use it!


And also back to my point CCP hates armour PvE fits
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#28 - 2013-05-17 20:42:58 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
DeLindsay wrote:


ARMOR: Faster movement (easier to fit Prop) + utility like dual Webs/TP/etc at a lower DPS output. EHP can be lower.



Alot of good dual webs/P does in a competition when it also helps the the competition Oops.
The prop helps only in 1 Vanguard: NCO's really (& once in a blue moon OTAs if and only if the armour fleet has a 1 spawn head start.). Prop mods don't help in assaults nor HQs


Yes they do. They allow you to complete certain sites quicker, and allow you to get better position for when the next wave spawns.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-05-17 22:26:23 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Ok Darth... against my better judgement I'm going to try to explain to you why you think the armor vs. shield argument is valid but in reality it is not.

First off a few things about your community, The Ditanian Fleet and Born Ara.

1. You have low standards for ships/fittings.
a) One time to prove a point to a friend that TDF was bad I linked a guardian fit with a full meta 1 fit with medium reppers, I was promptly invited to fleet and asked to join on grid and I didn't turn on a single rep the whole time, being as I was the 3rd guardian on grid, no one noticed.
b) You allow tech 1 battleships into your fleets without tech 2 guns.

2. TDF and Born Ara are both full of typical Eve players. All the FC's/Officers of TDF throw their weight around like their something special, (ETS Jammer is the only well adjusted normal human being in the whole bunch IMO) they all go on and on about fittings and their amazing amount of knowledge they have with incursions and incursion mechanics, (when in actuality they are all fairly bad at ship fittings and have limited knowledge about optimal fleet setups) and most of the FC's are just downright egomaniacs.

More power to you guys for running an armor community like this, have fun and enjoy your PvE. However if you are going to continue to argue about how armor is soooooo broken compared to shield for incursion fleets then you had better be running optimal setups like 90% of the shield fleets are.

Now... I took ship setups from the major shield fleets for the Vindicator and Machariel, VG and HQ fits, and checked the numbers on the best fits. Then I setup armor ships to compare the numbers.

Vindicator
Shield VG
EHP: 60,110
Resists
EM: 60.7
Therm: 57.5
Kin: 68.1
Expl: 73.4
DPS: 1582
Optimal + Falloff: 6.4 + 23
Tracking: 0.12927

Armor VG
EHP: 71,396
Resists
EM: 67.0
Therm: 57.1
Kin: 57.1
Expl: 56.1
DPS: 1582
Optimal + Falloff: 6.4 + 23
Tracking: 0.15327

The HQ Vindicator fit and Machariel VG and HQ fits match up basically the same as those fits.

I checked the numbers on the Basilisk vs. Guardian and the results are about the same. I'm sure Scimitar vs. Oneiros is much the same as well.

Another huge bonus to running an armor fleet is the Legion, which I have numbers on but seeing as the Tengu is not used in most high end shield incursion communities I won't post the numbers to compare, needless to say having a cruiser hull with decent EHP and amazing applied DPS to frigate hulls is a massive addition to any VG fleet.

Armor fits are calculated with a high grade Slave set, which is the major bonus of running any armor setup. If you want to whine about having to buy implants to compete (which I'm guessing you will) you need to realize that the invulnerability field that shield fleets use to get those resists/EHP is roughly the cost of a full low-grade Slave set + deadspace EANM. Also if there was a shield slave set, how many shield communites would be rocking it?

So what's my point with all this jibba jabba?

Since the death of the blitz fleet, the armor incursion community has been at a stand still whining about the VG nerf. Shield fleets have taken off running and adapted to the changes and made the most of it. TDF needs to take a long hard look at how efficient they run their community before posting anything about shield vs. armor incursion balance.

When your balance argument is "The people who use the things I use are just superior players, unlike our competitors who are just bads" it is a good indication you are wrong.

You did a great job of convincing me that Armor fleets need a buff.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#30 - 2013-05-17 23:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Voith wrote:
When your balance argument is "The people who use the things I use are just superior players, unlike our competitors who are just bads" it is a good indication you are wrong.

You did a great job of convincing me that Armor fleets need a buff.


Except he's right. Armour fleets are fine, and I fly in one. The actual 'problem' armour fleets face is one of perception. This perception is based on a few things;

1. There are few pilots and even fewer FCs in the armour communities.
2. Because of 1, the handful of fleets that do get running are forced to take ****-fit T1 battleships with meta4 guns and only 1-2 damage mods because their pilots have to over-tank due to poor skills and lack of OGBs. They also frequently have 3 logis, further reducing their damage potential.
3. Because of 2, most armour fleets actually ARE crap.
4. Because of 3, pilots and FCs leave to shield fleets (this causes 1, and it continues)
5. Because of 4, shield fleets have a much larger pool of pilots to recruit from and can afford to only take the shiny ships piloted by pilots with good skills.
6. Because of 5, shield fleets actually ARE better, and so the myth-fact is continued.

Self fulfilling prophecy. Shield fleets are literally better because they are perceived to be better. The few times I've been in a fleet with proper OGBs and a good fleet makeup, we won every contest of the sites (VGs because 1) and we were pushing 4 minute pay to pay times.

Until armour fleets are perceived to be better than shields, they will continue to be worse than shields. People like Darth constantly shouting about how CCP hate armour are just making the problem worse, especially when they use selectively cherry-picked incorrect claims to do it. A ship with an invul field and 3 rigs is NOT a 1-slot tank. It is a 4-slot tank.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#31 - 2013-05-17 23:20:02 UTC
Here is a Paladin fit that reaches 1400dps (6% implants), has 110,532 eHP (using only low-grade slaves in 1-5, no Omega, and an OGB Legion w/ mindlink) and 2 tanking mods. Please note; THIS IS AN ACTUAL 2-SLOT TANK.

Paladin wrote:

Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Energy Transfer Array
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Garde II x3


It gets 20+17km range with IN MF and with Scorch gives 1142 DPS at 59+17kms. High Grade slaves give it 129,347 eHP, this is MORE than enough for logis to keep you up. Heck, you could spider tank this with no logis, although this will never happen due to :lazy:
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-05-17 23:40:04 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Voith wrote:
When your balance argument is "The people who use the things I use are just superior players, unlike our competitors who are just bads" it is a good indication you are wrong.

You did a great job of convincing me that Armor fleets need a buff.


Except he's right. Armour fleets are fine, and I fly in one. The actual 'problem' armour fleets face is one of perception. This perception is based on a few things;

1. There are few pilots and even fewer FCs in the armour communities.
2. Because of 1, the handful of fleets that do get running are forced to take ****-fit T1 battleships with meta4 guns and only 1-2 damage mods because their pilots have to over-tank due to poor skills and lack of OGBs. They also frequently have 3 logis, further reducing their damage potential.
3. Because of 2, most armour fleets actually ARE crap.
4. Because of 3, pilots and FCs leave to shield fleets (this causes 1, and it continues)
5. Because of 4, shield fleets have a much larger pool of pilots to recruit from and can afford to only take the shiny ships piloted by pilots with good skills.
6. Because of 5, shield fleets actually ARE better, and so the myth-fact is continued.

Self fulfilling prophecy. Shield fleets are literally better because they are perceived to be better. The few times I've been in a fleet with proper OGBs and a good fleet makeup, we won every contest of the sites (VGs because 1) and we were pushing 4 minute pay to pay times.

Until armour fleets are perceived to be better than shields, they will continue to be worse than shields. People like Darth constantly shouting about how CCP hate armour are just making the problem worse, especially when they use selectively cherry-picked incorrect claims to do it. A ship with an invul field and 3 rigs is NOT a 1-slot tank. It is a 4-slot tank.


So everyone is doing shield, but armor is totally better. But all the best players run shield fleet.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#33 - 2013-05-17 23:53:52 UTC
Voith wrote:
So everyone is doing shield, but armor is totally better. But all the best players run shield fleet.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.


Reading comprehension isn't your strong point is it?
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-05-17 23:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Also, your fitting is **** because it is basically "Look, I can make a good armor tank with a 5 billion isk budget". It is ~3 bill just for the ship, plus another billion or two in implants.

Sans implants it does a respectable 1070 DPS (20/17) with a terrible 63k EHP.

Your idiocy did motivate me to try to top your lolworthy fit though, so I guess you managed to do something useful with those :words:


[Armageddon,LFAF]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II,Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Drones_Active=Garde II,5


As long as we're going with "stupid gimick" builds lets do this one!

Cranking out 1356 damage and 71k HP with 0 implants we have the "LFAF Shield-Ageddon"!
All for < 200 Mil, less than the cost of half of your implants, or the hull, or the faction mods, or the dead space mod.

So in 10 minutes I managed to shoe horn a shield tank onto a goddamn Armageddon that is superior to your "Paladong" build for a mere 5% of the cost.

You're doing a great job of convincing someone who doesn't run incursions that Armor needs a huge buff.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#35 - 2013-05-18 00:19:23 UTC
Voith wrote:
Also, your fitting is **** because it is basically "Look, I can make a good armor tank with a 5 billion isk budget". It is ~3 bill just for the ship, plus another billion or two in implants.

Sans implants it does a respectable 1070 DPS (20/17) with a terrible 63k EHP.


You ignored drone DPS on my fit, while using it on yours. (1070 gun DPS on pally, 855 gun DPS on geddon)
2 slot tank versus 7 slot tank.
6 damage mods versus 4 damage mods.
No tracking mods at all on your geddon. (giving you just over HALF the tracking on the Paladin)
20% longer lock times on your geddon
Large thermal hole on your geddon.
Only 4 minutes of cap on your geddon.
Fitting mods on your geddon.

Look out folks, we've got a class-1 EFT warrior here.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-05-18 00:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Paikis wrote:
Voith wrote:
Also, your fitting is **** because it is basically "Look, I can make a good armor tank with a 5 billion isk budget". It is ~3 bill just for the ship, plus another billion or two in implants.

Sans implants it does a respectable 1070 DPS (20/17) with a terrible 63k EHP.


You ignored drone DPS on my fit, while using it on yours. (1070 gun DPS on pally, 855 gun DPS on geddon)
2 slot tank versus 7 slot tank.
6 damage mods versus 4 damage mods.
No tracking mods at all on your geddon. (giving you just over HALF the tracking on the Paladin)
20% longer lock times on your geddon
Large thermal hole on your geddon.
Only 4 minutes of cap on your geddon.
Fitting mods on your geddon.

Look out folks, we've got a class-1 EFT warrior here.

The entire point of the post was making fun of your EFT Warrior'ing.

Congratulations at totally missing the point.


List of things that matter for EFT Whores and don't in game:]
2 slot tank versus 7 slot tank.
6 damage mods versus 4 damage mods.
Fitting mods on your geddon.

By your "logic" if I could shoe horn 5k DPS and 200 K HP but it took 5 slots to tank, 8 damage mods and 2 fitting mods it would be terrible. This is why your posts are counter productive to your "cause". Because you are bad at this game and posting.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#37 - 2013-05-18 00:55:08 UTC
Voith wrote:
The entire point of the post was making fun of your EFT Warrior'ing.

Congratulations at totally missing the point.


List of things that matter for EFT Whores and don't in game:]
2 slot tank versus 7 slot tank.
6 damage mods versus 4 damage mods.
Fitting mods on your geddon.

By your "logic" if I could shoe horn 5k DPS and 200 K HP but it took 5 slots to tank, 8 damage mods and 2 fitting mods it would be terrible. This is why your posts are counter productive to your "cause". Because you are bad at this game and posting.


My EFT warrioring that is backed up by actually HAVING those implants and a perfect OGB alt w/ mindlink? My EFT warrioring that has actually been in a fleet of those Paladins and seen what they can do?

Hell, even with NO implants, and downgrading the EANM to c-type still gives it enough tank (lowest resist 69%, 90k EHP) and 1250 DPS, with enough tracking to actually apply that damage. Plus the option to instantly switch to scorch for long range damage.

Who is EFT-warrioring? And who is stating a fact backed up by in-game experience and actual usage?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#38 - 2013-05-18 02:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Paikis wrote:
Here is a Paladin fit that reaches 1400dps (6% implants), has 110,532 eHP (using only low-grade slaves in 1-5, no Omega, and an OGB Legion w/ mindlink) and 2 tanking mods. Please note; THIS IS AN ACTUAL 2-SLOT TANK.

Paladin wrote:

Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Energy Transfer Array
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Garde II x3


I am calling you out on that BS fit:
WTF are the resistances on that ??? Its sig radius + explosive hole are HUGE!!!
POOF!
3 guards would have trouble keeping that up with a tama 3rd wave alpha let alone 2
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-05-18 02:50:31 UTC
He basically requires a full set of HG implants, and a full minklinked Damnation for make it work.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#40 - 2013-05-18 03:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
DarthNefarius wrote:
I am calling you out on that BS fit:
WTF are the resistances on that ??? Its sig radius + explosive hole are HUGE!!!
POOF!


Resists: 77.6 / 70.8% / 70.6% / 73.1%
Armour HP: 18688 (no implants)
eHP: 92,213

WHAT explosive hole? The sig radius is quite large, but that is an unfortunate side-effect of being a marauder.

Voith wrote:
He basically requires a full set of HG implants, and a full minklinked Damnation for make it work.


Implants aren't required, they just make it better. Yes, I have an OGB, why wouldn't I use it?

EDIT: Hey, thanks for arguing by the way, I just realised that I can drop the Discharge Elutriation rig and fit a Trimark! Even better tank, and still less slots used than the '1-slot shield tanks' talked about in the OP