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The great Cearain and X Gal 'How to fix/break FW thread.
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Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#21 - 2013-05-17 10:52:15 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:

Subjects include but are not limited to:
-The timer rolback.
-Plex warning system
-How to measure PvP performance.


Timer rollback is definatelly a good idea. To be more specific I think it should be a panality for both sides: defender and offender. If you want to close a plex you have to sit there until it is finally closed. If for some reason no party is in a plex then the timer should rollback to the middle position with 1/3 of regular speed.

Plex warning is obsolete. Really.
Measurement of PVP performance always has the big disadeventage that there is a lot of space for misuse.

What we really need is a solution to Off Grid Boosting. Boosting should only work on-grid.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#22 - 2013-05-17 13:34:49 UTC
Meditril wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:

Subjects include but are not limited to:
-The timer rolback.
-Plex warning system
-How to measure PvP performance.


...
Plex warning is obsolete. Really.....


Personally I am more interested in the reasons why someone likes or doesn't like a proposal than just stating a conclusion. What changed in plexing to make better intel tools obsolete?

IMO until fw sov in the vast majority of systems is controled by pvpers then pvpers should be given better intel tools to help them win the war through pvp. We clearly are not there yet.

Meditril wrote:


What we really need is a solution to Off Grid Boosting. Boosting should only work on-grid.


I couldn't agree more.

This breaks every part of the game. I think ccp looks sort of foolish tweaking all the ships for balance when ogbs just completely throws everything out of wack.

2 more cpu for this ship, 50 more hull points here, and a 2% agility boost for this one, etc etc, when the offgrid boosts can give ships the equivalent of about 3 extra slots that don't require any power grid or cpu.

They are like doctors fussing about a splinter in a patients finger and ignoring the shotgun wound in his chest.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Feffri
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#23 - 2013-05-18 05:45:27 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
[quote=Feffri][quote=]



so you want that fw would be place where only veterans could do something?


no but if 100 is too much then it can change but you are letting 100number sidetrack my main point that a 10 old frig should not be able to solo all the plexes. Also this is a mmo and people should have friend at 100 two 5 day old frig characters could break 100dps. a truly new player should not be in the game 10 days roaming around low sec in fw by themselves with no guidance.

but if people agree with the idea then the numbers can be tweaked to what is decided to be best. however like i said i think this would decrease farming alts but either way works for me. current system i keep getting rich harder to plex means less farmers affecting the war zone.
Theroine
Pew Pew Pirates
#24 - 2013-05-20 04:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Theroine
I think timer rollback should be a situational mechanic. Say I'm running a site and get chased out by an opposing faction player, if that player stays in the plex, the timer rolls back like now. If the opposing player leaves the plex, the timer doesn't move for a set time, let's say two minutes. After that, it starts to roll back at rate slower than if it were being deplexed. (Sorry if this has already been suggested in other threads, can't be bothered to check it out) At this point it's a cost/benefit plus risk/reward scenario for both players. Tears and frustration are as valid in EVE as kills and ISK.

As far as plexers in cloaky, stabbed ships go, I believe the penalties that already accompany these modules are all that are needed. Again, maybe this has already been covered, instead of messing with rat hp/dps why not make them react in a more cost/benefit, risk/reward fashion. Instead of mindlessly sitting in the site waiting to be popped, they react like anyone who is not immortal would and warp out. They are not as experienced as capsuleers, and their ships don't respond as fast, so there is more than enough time to point them once you enter the site, unless your modules slow you down. At this point the timer still isn't running. Since cowardice and its consequences is not how the rat wants to be judged/remembered, a minute or so later the rat warps back into the plex (fully repaired) and the cat and mouse game repeats itself.

Stabbed plexers get a little taste of their own medicine but they still get to run their plexes. Maybe they have to offline a stab or two to be able to lock the rat, but maybe they forget to online them and get caught by someone on the hunt.

Or maybe we could dial back the whining, HTFU and accept the fact that nothing is ever going to be perfect and please everyone (insert first world problems meme here).

Fly how you want! Pirate

Join in on the pew
Woeful Animation
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#25 - 2013-05-20 16:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Woeful Animation
I can certainly understand the experienced pilots being frustrated with the current system. But I am a rabbit. I can tell you the story from the standpoint of a rabbit.

I think the frustration goes back to a fundamental aspect of EvE. Early on the player must make a decision to either stand and fight or break off the encounter and run. As a new pilot, the decision to run is NEVER the wrong decision. I might miss out on capping a plex, but so what, there are plenty of other plexes to cap.

Unless or until a game mechanic is introduced that makes standing and fighting more advantageous than running you won't solve the problem. Punishing the runner will decrease the number of people engaging in FW (or plexing), and doesn't ultimately solve the problem. Adding HP or DPS to the rat just increases the entry level for the inexperienced player and cuts down the numbers. Again you want more people participating. Not less. The more that participate the more likely you are to get fights.

Since I don't believe that crying about the problem solves anything, here are a few suggestions from the rabbits point of view.

1. Rabbits run because they can and they have nothing better to do than watch local and hit D-scan for the first signs of trouble. Put rats in the defensive plex, have them spawn every few minutes. Keep the player busy. Busy players don't cloak up. Busy players don't have the luxury tapping d-scan once every few seconds.

2. Put rats in the plexes with sensor dampening skills. Make them progressively harder depending on the size of the plex. Novice, regular easy low sec rat. Small, put on sensor damps, ECM mods. Medium make the rat more complex and more powerful. Spawn them on a timer when ever the plex is active. A novice player should be able to run. A medium/large plex should be harder.

3. Give the plex certain boosts. If you make it so that I have more armor and shield and I stand a chance in the plex against a tougher opponent. I will stand and fight more often, if I feel like I have a chance. The battle will be longer, but the ultimate outcome should be the same. Give me a chance to learn from the fight.

4. LP farmers will still run. A stripped frig with a cloak and pilot who pays attention is practically invulnerable. Fix that problem. Focus on that solution, and the vast majority of the issues seen under the current system will be resolved. IMO.

Before the flames begin:

1. I think that the current FW system helps entry level players get involved in the basics of PvP. That feature should be preserved.

2. The current model favors less risk vs reward. Balance the scales towards more reward based on more risk.

3. The stripped Frig can win the war. Change that. I can take a off the shelve T1 Frig and plex all day and by myself ruin the weeks worth of offensive plexing.

4. Counter off-grid boosting in FW locations. I don't care how, but a double repped incurus should not be able to go 5 on 1 and win.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#26 - 2013-05-20 18:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Woeful Animation wrote:
I can certainly understand the experienced pilots being frustrated with the current system. But I am a rabbit. I can tell you the story from the standpoint of a rabbit.

I think the frustration goes back to a fundamental aspect of EvE. Early on the player must make a decision to either stand and fight or break off the encounter and run. As a new pilot, the decision to run is NEVER the wrong decision. I might miss out on capping a plex, but so what, there are plenty of other plexes to cap.

Unless or until a game mechanic is introduced that makes standing and fighting more advantageous than running you won't solve the problem. Punishing the runner will decrease the number of people engaging in FW (or plexing), and doesn't ultimately solve the problem.



I believe your our last two sentences at least somewhat conflict with eachother. I do agree with the first sentence but not the second.


Woeful Animation wrote:

Adding HP or DPS to the rat just increases the entry level for the inexperienced player and cuts down the numbers. Again you want more people participating. Not less. The more that participate the more likely you are to get fights.

Since I don't believe that crying about the problem solves anything, here are a few suggestions from the rabbits point of view.

1. Rabbits run because they can and they have nothing better to do than watch local and hit D-scan for the first signs of trouble. Put rats in the defensive plex, have them spawn every few minutes. Keep the player busy. Busy players don't cloak up. Busy players don't have the luxury tapping d-scan once every few seconds.

2. Put rats in the plexes with sensor dampening skills. Make them progressively harder depending on the size of the plex. Novice, regular easy low sec rat. Small, put on sensor damps, ECM mods. Medium make the rat more complex and more powerful. Spawn them on a timer when ever the plex is active. A novice player should be able to run. A medium/large plex should be harder.

3. Give the plex certain boosts. If you make it so that I have more armor and shield and I stand a chance in the plex against a tougher opponent. I will stand and fight more often, if I feel like I have a chance. The battle will be longer, but the ultimate outcome should be the same. Give me a chance to learn from the fight..



Increasing the power of the npcs will, if anything, give more reason to fit a pve ship and avoid combat. This was an issue before ccp fixed the npcs.

As far as giving the plexers more armor I think that doesn't really make sense. It assumes the person in the plex is always a beginner that needs extra armor/shields. But this isn't the case. If new players need more advantages then ccp should give that to them - like they did with the implant that gave them more dps etc for a limitted time. But that is really a different issue.


Woeful Animation wrote:

4. LP farmers will still run. A stripped frig with a cloak and pilot who pays attention is practically invulnerable. Fix that problem. Focus on that solution, and the vast majority of the issues seen under the current system will be resolved. IMO.



It doesn't matter how many guns or shields a ship has. If the system is such that you can capture plex after plex without having to fight anything but rats, then the best plexers will just run to the next plex. We used to have stupid numbers of rats spawning and it was tough to run a major plex solo in a fully pve dominix. We still had the same problems we do now - in that the best way to gain sov was by running from pvp.

Let players know where plexes are being captured and the pvpers will/can come fight for them. Until that happens hide and seek plexing will remain the best way to capture space.


Woeful Animation wrote:

Before the flames begin:

1. I think that the current FW system helps entry level players get involved in the basics of PvP. That feature should be preserved.

2. The current model favors less risk vs reward. Balance the scales towards more reward based on more risk.

3. The stripped Frig can win the war. Change that. I can take a off the shelve T1 Frig and plex all day and by myself ruin the weeks worth of offensive plexing.

4. Counter off-grid boosting in FW locations. I don't care how, but a double repped incurus should not be able to go 5 on 1 and win.


1) I think entry level players should get involved too. I was a new player in faction war before too. But I didn't expect that my 2 month old character could have a bigger impact on sov than a 3 year old veteran pvp character. Unfortunately due to the continued hide and seek plex mechanics that is and always has been the case. Thats a big reason why no one cares about fw sov/occupancy.

2) The risk of pvp needs to go up. Once that happens the rewards will go up because the lp will eventually be worth something again. (ccp may need to nerf the mission pay if plexing becomes more risky)

3) Yes that needs to change. Everytime someone attacks a militia's military complex they should expect the players to come defend it. Unfortunately that is not happening. It is too boring, to constantly roam all of fw space looking to see if plexes are being captured. CCP should provide better intel tools to help pvpers defend/attack space.

4) Yes I agree. If they can't completely do away with ogbs then perhaps count deadspace plexes as another system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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