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Anti-Angel Odyssey CNR

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Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-05-17 11:51:49 UTC
Ziester wrote:

Pre-Odyssey stats :
575 Launcher DPS (that's x7, single launcher is 82.1)
158 Drone DPS (Bouncers)
(Have fun doing the math for Odyssey DPS ^^)

Screw it I'll do the maths :p

8 launchers x 82.1 DPS each = 656.8
656.8 DPS +25% damage (Odyssey boost) = 656.8 x1.25 = 821 DPS
821 DPS / 0.95 (+5% RoF Odyssey) = 864.21 DPS

864.21 Launchers DPS + 158 Drone DPS (3x Bouncer II) = 1022 Total DPS

That's with my current skillset, which is not perfect I'm still missing a couple L5 missile support skills (GMP 3 and Warhead Upgrade 4 atm, all other supports are 5)

I also still have a few implants influencing this : +5% TNP, +5% GMP, +5% RoF

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#22 - 2013-05-17 12:01:26 UTC
It might be easier if you just get Namamai's updated EFT files.

Oh god.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-05-17 12:40:38 UTC
Ziester wrote:
Ok to match feedback so far, I've adjusted the setup accordingly, along with some cheap faction mods to help with both tank and DPS :

Quote:
[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey cheap faction]
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II

Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive
Dread Guristas Explosive Deflection Field
Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile

Large Bay Loading Accelerator II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x3

Co-Processor is mandatory, along with a +3% CPU output implant, or even with the ship's changes for Odyssey this won't fit.
I didn't go for the fancy faction Invul since it's ridiculously overpriced.

- Replaced the CN Large SB to a Dread XLSB
- Replaced Cap Recharger II with Heavy Cap Booster II
- Replaced rigs accordingly to previous replies
- Replaced 5x Valk II by 3x Bouncer II, which do more DPS

Pre-Odyssey stats :
575 Launcher DPS (that's x7, single launcher is 82.1)
158 Drone DPS (Bouncers)
(Have fun doing the math for Odyssey DPS ^^)

Tank vs Angel : XLSB boosts 1041.4 EHP/sec, for around 3m30s consistnt boost
Resists 85.4% Exp, 82.5 Kin

Although these stats are not entirely true since I can't check the real stats with all 7 mid modules.



Just an fyi - if you try to run anoms with this your tank is going to be raped by Seraphim/Cherubim BS since you have very little EM/Therm resists.
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-17 13:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziester
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Just an fyi - if you try to run anoms with this your tank is going to be raped by Seraphim/Cherubim BS since you have very little EM/Therm resists.

Oh jee thanks, didn't know those were dealing those dmg types.
I'll just readjust the tank then :
Quote:
Quote:
[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey cheap faction]
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II

Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile

Large Bay Loading Accelerator II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x3


This gives 870.5 ehp/s. It does lower the overall "Angel" tank but will help against such ships.
Anyhow I should have more than enough DPS to kill off a spawn before the tank breaks.

Any clue about Angel anom's average DPS ? For like Hidden/Forsaken/Forlorn Hubs and Havens ?
Havens might be too much, let alone Sanctums that most likely are way out of this ship's league.

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
stoicfaux
#25 - 2013-05-17 13:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Liang Nuren wrote:
There was a long ~math~ poast in the feedback thread which (I believe) rather categorically showed that BLA II + 2 Flares was better than the triple Rigor for most purposes. I think it sported 2 TPs. I have no reason to doubt that result.

-Liang

My numbers cast doubt on that claim. Any chance you can narrow down that post? Some key words to help search on?

Never mind: found it: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/235324-1/author/Klingon_Admiral#5 That seems to compare the Golem vs the CNR and isn't about BLAII + Flares being better than 3 rigors.

I'll post my numbers later, but my spreadsheet says that 3xRigors trounces BLAII+Flares, or any combination of Rigors and Flares.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#26 - 2013-05-17 15:06:37 UTC
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNU3JXSjkybWt6UDA/edit?usp=sharing

Note the "% of full damage" column. With two TPs, the BLA CNR is a tiny bit faster (half a second per volley) than the 3xRigor CNR. However, with only 1 TP, the BLA CNR starts to fall behind.

More importantly, the 3xRigor CNR is just as effective with 1 TP as with 2 TPs, which makes it less reliant on TP juggling which probably eliminates the BLA CNR's slight RoF advantage.

Looking at the "% of full damage" column shows that the 3xRigor CNR is better at applying its damage than the BLA CNR, so again, I'm not sure the BLA's rof advantage is worth it.


tl;dr - The 3xRigor CNR is better in that it is more efficient at applying damage, while the BLA CNR's slight RoF advantage isn't enough to compensate.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-05-17 15:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziester
Well that's pretty straight forward, I'll go with 2 Rigor2 and a Flare2, the Flare being kind of a counter to those Angel rats who tend to MWD burst every now and then.

Quote:
[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey cheap faction]
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Khanid Navy Ballistic Control System
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II

Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x3

I guess I'll use Furys for BC/BS and just switch to regular T1 for Cruisers/Frigs.
I don't think using Precision would cut enough missiles to make it profitable over T1.

Anything else that'd need tweaking ?

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2013-05-17 18:06:49 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNU3JXSjkybWt6UDA/edit?usp=sharing

Note the "% of full damage" column. With two TPs, the BLA CNR is a tiny bit faster (half a second per volley) than the 3xRigor CNR. However, with only 1 TP, the BLA CNR starts to fall behind.

More importantly, the 3xRigor CNR is just as effective with 1 TP as with 2 TPs, which makes it less reliant on TP juggling which probably eliminates the BLA CNR's slight RoF advantage.

Looking at the "% of full damage" column shows that the 3xRigor CNR is better at applying its damage than the BLA CNR, so again, I'm not sure the BLA's rof advantage is worth it.


tl;dr - The 3xRigor CNR is better in that it is more efficient at applying damage, while the BLA CNR's slight RoF advantage isn't enough to compensate.



I agree with your conclusion (3 Rigor > BLA/Rigor) because it agrees with my own research (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3041044#post3041044). However, your methodology is just flat wrong because you are ignoring damage application implants. You can say that they affect everyone equally (and be right!), but the problem is exactly illustrated here: The 3 Rigor CNR is just as effective with 1 TP as with 2 TP. That's exactly the same kind of effect that damage application implants have. I also think it's kinda weird to assume only one painter considering we all fit painters already and we're getting an extra mid slot.

It might be a better place to talk about damage application implants in the appropriate thread though. You've linked that lots of places and it's a better place to discuss methodology.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
stoicfaux
#29 - 2013-05-17 18:17:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I agree with your conclusion (3 Rigor > BLA/Rigor) because it agrees with my own research (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3041044#post3041044). However, your methodology is just flat wrong because you are ignoring damage application implants. You can say that they affect everyone equally (and be right!), but the problem is exactly illustrated here: The 3 Rigor CNR is just as effective with 1 TP as with 2 TP. That's exactly the same kind of effect that damage application implants have. I also think it's kinda weird to assume only one painter considering we all fit painters already and we're getting an extra mid slot.

It might be a better place to talk about damage application implants in the appropriate thread though. You've linked that lots of places and it's a better place to discuss methodology.

-Liang

Implants were tedious to set in EFT. (Especially since I forgot that you can create skill profiles with pre-set implants in EFT.) Since not everyone has V in everything, folks can use implants to pick up the slack.

TP juggling and falloff, if you have two TPs, you can't always apply them both. The PDF reports generally assume 2 TPs. You can select the # of TPs (from 1 to 5) in the spreadsheet. My assumptions about TP usage are just my assumptions.

The reports are meant to be a easy comparison between the ship hulls and do not necessarily represent extreme min-maxing.

Remember, anyone can get a googledocs account, run my spreadsheet, export to a PDF, upload the doc to googledocs and post the link on the forums. Big smile

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2013-05-17 18:20:09 UTC
People who haven't trained their missile support skills to 5 are literally not worth thinking about in a balance discussion. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-05-17 19:12:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
People who haven't trained their missile support skills to 5 are literally not worth thinking about in a balance discussion. ;-)

-Liang

Since were talking about me there, could we get back to that Navy Raven please ? :D

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
#32 - 2013-05-17 19:21:25 UTC
So, guessing from your pre/post Odyssey number - currently the CNR/Raven/Typhoon are garbage. However, post-patch, the CNR/Phoon will be the ship of choice for ratting everywhere except Syndicate/Guristas (still can't beat the Vindi)due to superior damage output versus the Machariel/Nightmare?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#33 - 2013-05-17 19:54:06 UTC
I'd be really curious why anyone would use a CNR over a Golem in PVE.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-05-17 21:58:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'd be really curious why anyone would use a CNR over a Golem in PVE.

-Liang

This isn't the subject...
But if you really wanna know, it's just personal taste.
Sure I want it to be efficient and for salvaging, i'd prolly use another lighter ship in case i gotta get out fast so i wouldn't take advantage of the golem's tractor bonus.

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#35 - 2013-05-17 22:23:06 UTC
Ziester wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'd be really curious why anyone would use a CNR over a Golem in PVE.

-Liang

This isn't the subject...
But if you really wanna know, it's just personal taste.
Sure I want it to be efficient and for salvaging, i'd prolly use another lighter ship in case i gotta get out fast so i wouldn't take advantage of the golem's tractor bonus.


The much more important thing about the Golem is that it has equal missile damage to the CNR but has much stronger damage application bonuses (explo velocity + painter effectiveness)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#36 - 2013-05-17 22:25:37 UTC
I'm pretty sure explosion radius beats explosion velocity.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-05-17 22:26:58 UTC
Ziester wrote:
Hi there,

Currently being training up to T2 Cruise missiles and grinding iskies to afford it, I'm working on a CNR project that I'd use for the sole purpose of bashing the **** out of Angel rats.

Here's the first batch :

Quote:
[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey - T2]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II
Power Diagnostic System II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Explosive Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Booster II
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
Capacitor Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Valkyrie II x5
Warrior II x5


Now you may have noticed I voluntarily added the 8th launcher and the extra mid. I've done the maths, if I'm correct it should fit. tightly, but it should.

Pre-Odyssey, with "ALL 5" skills, this gives 79.1 per launcher with T1 Nova cruise, which should put out 632.8 DPS
In Odyssey and according to the cruise missile change post, roughly adding +25% dmg, should get up to 791 DPS, without drones. Now that may be wrong, as in lower than what I should actually get since iirc they said base dmg, as in before skills, but cba to do the maths there.

So I'm gonna wildguess 791 + ~130 drone dps = 920 DPS, probably more like around 1K or something.

The tank however is rather poor, even with having 83.4% Exp and 80% Kin resists, SB boosts about 344.6 ehp per second.
Enouhg for belt rats, and afaik, not quite for anomalies though. however, fancy tanking modules may come with increased income rate anyway.

Not sure if I should use CN cruise or just stick with T1, maybe T2 for beefier rats ? As the intent is to make the better ISK spent per ISK gained ratio, which can be tricky as belt rats are not exact science and you never know what you're gonna get first.

What do you guys think about it ?



Odyssey Navy BS will have 400 calibration. No need for that second rigor to be T1

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#38 - 2013-05-17 22:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Malcanis wrote:
I'm pretty sure explosion radius beats explosion velocity.


Only if you ignore the painter effectiveness and tank bonuses. In reality the Golem can fit *four* target painters with the same tank of a 2 painter CNR.

-Liang

Ed: Oh, oh, oh, and each one of those target painters is 50% more effective. Not that it even needs the 4 painters - 3 is plenty sufficient and always has been.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-05-17 22:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziester
Liang Nuren wrote:
Only if you ignore the painter effectiveness and tank bonuses. In reality the Golem can fit *four* target painters with the same tank of a 2 painter CNR.

-Liang

Ed: Oh, oh, oh, and each one of those target painters is 50% more effective. Not that it even needs the 4 painters - 3 is plenty sufficient and always has been.

Care to share a fit which could tank anomalies up to solo'ing Angel Havens ?

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#40 - 2013-05-17 22:46:17 UTC
Is this fit for Anomalies? I'm not sure why you need so much tank, can't you kite most of the damage?

Oh god.