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Dev blog: Dual Character Training

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Author
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#121 - 2013-05-16 10:47:45 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.


Please, bring it up and try to make a convincing case.

Personally I see myself using this option very rarely and when I do it i don't want to waste any of the time but use the feature to full effect.

Also please note that people who use a credit card for paying their game time _very_ seldom have a reason to go to the account page. Over all the close to 10 years I've played I don't think I've been there more than maybe a dozen times, if even that.

You could perhaps make another tab into the character sheet for these kind of timers.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#122 - 2013-05-16 11:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
SunTsu Rae wrote:
[quote=Malcanis]Just in case anyone was worried:
The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.

I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.

AGAIN you can only use 1 toon at a time, therefore it allows a player/user to explore other options in the game.

In my case I would have 6 toons with 4 years, or roughly 70M+ sp per toon. Lots of options. Why is restricting us and asking for more money for a option that should be there already a good thing ?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Having multiple characters training on the main account at the same time for the current subscription fee would completely obliterate the Character/PLEX market.

This because SP would no longer have any value. At the moment It takes some form of dedication to train 1 character to a high level of SP. If you at the same time have another 2 training for the same price you're chopping the value of characters down by 1/3rd of current market prices. Plex currently somewhat represents a certain amount of SP/Hr over a whole month.

As an example lets say you train 1000sp/h this comes down to 720.000 sp per month (depending on implants). A 1 year old character would have 8.640.000 sp.
And its worth would be about 12 plex. 12 plex currently represents 180,- worth of training.
If you now make all 3 characters able to train, you can simply divide 180 by 3, making the worth of the character just 60,-

Can you see the rage of the 2003 chars? That 10 years of training. With a current plex value of 1800,- chopped down to just 600,- worth if they would change that.
It's simply a choice that was made at the start of EVE to say 1 plex = 1 char training for 30 days. Revert that/alter that and you completely stab EVE's wallet.

The only thing this new PLEX for a second char training enables is to keep your main training, while you also train another char for a short while on the same account without first having to transfer it off your account.. train it for a month, and then move it back to your main account again. So basically you get 2 transfers for free.
But you're limited to the use of the character, as it can only be logged in while your main is not.
Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#123 - 2013-05-16 11:05:51 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
Over all the close to 10 years I've played I don't think I've been there more than maybe a dozen times, if even that.

Wait, so there are people that don't use a mobile app which just pulls and shows the subscription data from their API?
Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#124 - 2013-05-16 11:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Esrevid Nekkeg
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
First off, this is one of the biggest changes to overall eve philosophy since the skill queue (and I've been here since beta).
Second, I probably won't be using this feature, but if I ever do, there's one thing I'd like to be able to see.

You said the time remaining would be visible from the account management screen. I'd like to see that information available in game. From any of your characters. At any time.

Last, I have a question. Can you activate that secondary training a second time so that you could have all 3 characters on your account training at the same time? (spend two PLEX, of course)


This is limited to 2 characters at the moment. We will monitor this and can make adjustments in the future. We have to monitor what impact this might have on the PLEX market, etc.

We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game. At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.
You don't have to show the remaining time in game, but you could show it in the character selection screen. In the same way you see your remaining game time when your subscription is about to run out, as a warning: 'You have X days of subscription left.'
Could it be possible, using the same mechanic, to show a similar warning in the character selection screen like: 'You have X days of dual training left on this account'? Shown a few days before it lapses?

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......

Dances With Valkyries
#125 - 2013-05-16 11:52:58 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
xttz wrote:
Will you use this opportunity to make single character training a bit more usable?

Let's say I want to train a very short skill (a few hours) on an alt character that isn't worth a plex. Currently we have to:

1) Log out
2) Log in the character currently training and pause it.
3) Log out again
4) Log back into the character you want to train temporarily and start the skill.

Why can't starting a skill from an alt automatically pause the other character on the same account?


It's funny because we were just discussing how the technical changes implemented to allow for this feature would also allow for pausing a character you are not logged into. Not likely to make it for Odyssey but certainly something we will consider for the future.


While we're dreaming, how about restarting a paused queue for another character (possible the one with the most SP) if the current training ends?
Baron Holbach
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#126 - 2013-05-16 12:06:31 UTC
Quote:
For improved visibility, please note that activated and remaining Dual Character Training time may be seen at any time in the Account Management page.


in dev blob, if/is this info also visible in api?
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#127 - 2013-05-16 12:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
SunTsu Rae wrote:
The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.

I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.


So you demand triple the value but want to still only pay the same 15 lousy bucks. Sounds reasonable Roll

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

You pay alright, but you pay for training a single character. You want more characters training, you pay more, mhkay?

.

Dances With Valkyries
#128 - 2013-05-16 12:30:02 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game. At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.


I would like to see this as well. I'm glad EveMon shows this but it would be nice if the character selection screen showed this as well. If I remember correctly, it shows the current skill queue duration so showing the account duration remaining above the characters would be nice.
dephekt
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-05-16 13:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: dephekt
My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.

Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?

Surely, the character transfer process is either entirely or mostly automated at this point, and adding the logic to check if a character transfer is occurring between accounts belonging to the same person and removing the fee in that circumstance, would be less development than implementing the in-game UI, database, and website UI back-end changes required to make the Dual Character Training system functional. Not to mention the future development cost of maintaining the additional implementation code.

CCP already makes plenty of money from individuals paying for multiple simultaneous accounts to gain a second training queue, in addition to the arbitrary character transfer fees. This seems like more of an excuse to add more ways for people to spend money rather than alleviating some perceived player issue that only exists for a small fraction of people, which as I mentioned could be resolved by removing an already arbitrary fee with little development time or code impact.

If this whole article had been replaced with "Dev blog: Change Characters Without Closing The Game" you would have nailed an actual gameplay hindrance that affects virtually any player with more than one character that shouldn't even exist in the first place and would be worthy of development effort, without adding additional "opportunities" for us to share our money with CCP.

As I understood it, our game subscription fees are supposed to be going towards furthering the development and recurring costs of the game as it is. Drumming up more money should be a function of increasing subscriptions by improving and enhancing the game, not adding additional ways to spend money for the same game we're already paying a subscription for.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#130 - 2013-05-16 14:46:19 UTC
But... but... but, you now make our standard "what other MMO lets you train 2 accounts at once" meaningless! Cry

Pirate
SunTsu Rae
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-05-16 15:06:25 UTC
World of Warcraft , yes I blasphemed , is a different sort of toon building format .
But , they do not ask for more money to build a second toon and skill it on the same account.

(They do however bend you over with no lube when it comes to the expansions.) Shocked

I do not understand how you as a group can correlate why this is "unfair" to long term players. Won't ever. It's a new item, new offer.

I do not understand how you as a group find this extra charge acceptable. Not gonna happen. Evil

I do see it being exploited , as I mentioned previously , on a tactical and strategic level by the alliances that can afford to do so.

I suppose that's acceptable. Roll Mind you it still will take time to be felt on the order of a year or so, but expect it.

SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) http://www.vfw.org

Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#132 - 2013-05-16 15:19:02 UTC
Tess La'Coil wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
Over all the close to 10 years I've played I don't think I've been there more than maybe a dozen times, if even that.

Wait, so there are people that don't use a mobile app which just pulls and shows the subscription data from their API?


Where is the need?

I've went to account management to change my billing period once (times two for two accounts), twice to check issues due to credit cards expiring, twice to select gifts (Christmas 2011 and that other time I've already forgotten what it was), two or three times to check changes to those pages and that's about it. Why should I have gone there more often just for fun?

So, in the end any information put there would be, sort of, behind a barrier. It would be much smarter to put the dual training timer into the game client itself. I would not call it breaking the verisimilitude.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#133 - 2013-05-16 15:24:20 UTC
Seems like maybe they should let it last 6 weeks or so? At 4 weeks it costs as much to run this as it does a second account.

thhief ghabmoef

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#134 - 2013-05-16 15:24:52 UTC
I completely support this, well done Devs.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#135 - 2013-05-16 15:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
dephekt wrote:
My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.

Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?


Because they have no way to confirm two accounts are owned by the same person. If you know of one you should forward the method to CCP security, as they want to ban all the accounts owned by a player whenever any one is caught botting or doing RMT.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

dephekt
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2013-05-16 15:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: dephekt
Vincent Athena wrote:
dephekt wrote:
My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.

Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?


Because they have no way to confirm two accounts are owned by the same person. If you know of one you should forward the method to CCP security, as they want to ban all the accounts owned by a player whenever any one is caught botting or doing RMT.


That's not true. There are numerous ways they could confirm this. Based on the name and information you give when you buy the account, the email address or telephone number you provide, your method of payment, gameplay IP ranges, etc. Granted, you can make an account in such a way that CCP would not reasonably be able to determine you are the same person that owns another account. In such a case, you would just be treated as a separate entity as they would be unable to confirm you were the same person and you would not be able to transfer characters between the two accounts (for free).

People that intentionally obfuscate their identity will know going in that they will not be able to use that system, so I don't see that as a problem. Basically, if you intentionally make your accounts look like they belong to different people, you have to live with the possibility that CCP may actually believe your accounts belong to different people.

If you're like me, you use your legal name and address when you purchase and pay for your accounts and you likely use the same payment method (or at least methods that are traceable back to your name). If you don't, then the onus is on you to prove you are who you say you are.

As an example, World of Warcraft allows transferring characters (only) between accounts owned by the same person. They have an automated system that does this. If your details between the two accounts don't match, you're out of luck. I only mention the WoW system here as a sort of proof-of-concept that clearly it's possible to automate a verification process to determine the owner of two separate accounts, within a certain scope.

Edit:

You mention banning accounts connected to botting and RMT. There's a difference there. You're talking about banning accounts as part of policy enforcement, at which point plausible deniability comes into play. Before banning their own subscribers, CCP would obviously want to have an extremely high level of confidence that some other account belonged to the original party. In cases like that, CCP will run into border-line cases where they may strongly suspect another account of being involved, but err on the side of caution and decide not to take action on it. In any case, the onus is on CCP to do the work and come up with enough proof.

In a situation with account info matching exactly or payment methods matching exactly, CCP would have a high level of confidence the two accounts belong to the same person and in any sense, the decision won't result in a player being banned, but merely having to pay a transfer fee and being upset for CCP's inability to verify their accounts, which is arguably a situation the player caused on their own. In this case, the player is responsible for making their accounts appear to be owned by them and CCP is simply automatically verifying that certain data between the two accounts match.
Styledatol
Stellar Forge Industries
#137 - 2013-05-16 16:18:43 UTC
Dances With Valkyries wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game. At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.


I would like to see this as well. I'm glad EveMon shows this but it would be nice if the character selection screen showed this as well. If I remember correctly, it shows the current skill queue duration so showing the account duration remaining above the characters would be nice.


That option is already implemented, in a way:
If you use the PLEX for Time service, you will have remaining days of gametime displayed when you enter your character selection screen forever after using that service. I do know it only starts showing when you have less than 10 days left, or something like that.
So I guess let your account expire, use PLEX for Time, and you'll have that counter displayed.

Edit: pics
SunTsu Rae
Perkone
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-05-16 16:28:01 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
dephekt wrote:
My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.

Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?


Because they have no way to confirm two accounts are owned by the same person. If you know of one you should forward the method to CCP security, as they want to ban all the accounts owned by a player whenever any one is caught botting or doing RMT.



Well if it's not PLEX paid , Credit Card numbers , Name and address were filled in at that time too, when I paid for both accounts.

SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) http://www.vfw.org

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#139 - 2013-05-16 18:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Quant wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:


The next big step would be allowing to merge all counts, with one Api, one login... I thing we all share this dream!

Fly Safe o/


I couldn't agree more Smile

It worked quite well in Guild Wars 1


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Takumiro wrote:
This feature should be free.

Why?

Those of you who don't want to pay for some bonus cnoveninece, or are whinging about 'greed' - When CCP makes an optional convenience avaliable, why should they give it to you for free? It's NOT manditory, nor is it game-breaking. This is NOT 'pay to win' - This is 'pay to have something nice and kinda useful.' CCP is in the busines to make money, so quit whinging about greed when you have zero obligation to use this - and indeed can continue going about things the old way.

Bottom line: Don't like it? Don't use it.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
#140 - 2013-05-16 18:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: destinationunreachable
guys, took you 4 years to do this feature request Lol
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1026297&page=1#1

edit: can't count