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Dev blog: Dual Character Training

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#61 - 2013-05-15 18:31:09 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
1. This seems to be only usable with plex, will i not be able to use this with the Icelandic game time cards?

2. So you're doing this, COULD YOU PLEASE ADD A SWITCH CHARACTER OPTION??? =<


Bumping my question <.<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#62 - 2013-05-15 18:38:27 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game.


Why not?

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.

Well, that time should be shown too. Why not? And the players would not see it "all the time", just when their character sheet is open. Even then they would not see a time ticking down, just the expiration date and time.


I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.

I fully understand the need for limiting things that conflict with immersion. But...PLEX. Its already all over the game. Putting on the character sheet "Pilot's license expires on DD/MM/YYYY at HH:MM:SS" would not be immersion breaking. Nor would "Secondary training license expires on..."

Also if you are interested in immersion the transaction tab in the wallet has a filter labeled "player donation". I'm a cybernetic demi-god flying around in a metal egg. Whats a "player"?

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Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-05-15 18:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
I really appreciated this. Good job!!! Many players will use this feature, and I hope that this turn up being really profitable to CCP. So you can hire more Devs and pay them better! So we get always a better game!

If you guys plan to improve this in a further level as this proves profitable, what is something that I would really be glad to hear:

This is close enough: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=212491&find=unread



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HybridOnslaught
New Eden Outcasts
#64 - 2013-05-15 18:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
This is a pointless addition its only another way for eve to sneak in the pay to play or whatever its called feature.

we are paying already for an account with 3 slots 2 of which are pointless and now you expect us to pay the bones of 30 euro a month to train two toons,

do the math on that and you will soon see you can have 2 accounts running at the same price.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Pointless feature that sounds good. but is in fact pointless.

did i mention its pointless.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
indiana bones
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-05-15 18:56:37 UTC
I think this is a very positive step and tbh probably a little overdue, but bravo CCP!

I know this has been touched on above, but I'd just like to add that I think using a 30 day 'Game Time' PLEX for 30 days of alt training time it a little disproportionate.

Using case 2, the player would have the ability to use both accounts at the same time and therefore there would be an advantage to this method. Albeit, at the end of that alts training you would have to then have to brunt the cost of a char transfer.

I'm not suggesting that this feature should give the ability to log both chars on at the same time, this would have quite dramatic consequences which I won't even bother to list.

But using '30 days of game time' and only receiving 30 days of training time doesn't quite stack up for me. To incentivise this I think there should be a small bonus to the amount of training time the alt char would receive, maybe 35 to 40 days of training time. I can't see me using this feature in it's currently proposed state due to this tbh.

Being a 2003 player my mains can already do everything I need them to do, so stopping them training to train an alt isn't really a big problem (as I am currently doing actually), but if there was a 'bonus' to using a PLEX for alt training, then I may well consider it.

I can definitely see how this would be of benefit to newer players, but would they be able to afford the luxury of an entire PLEX just for training an alt?

I'm also concerned that this would have quite an impact on PLEX prices in the long term. After watching the fanfest videos and seeing how the PLEX price is being manipulated by CCP with a current stockpile from banned accounts, surely this stockpile isn't infinite. How long until this runs out and PLEX prices soar due to demand completely outstripping supply?
David Magnus
#66 - 2013-05-15 19:00:03 UTC
People complaining about this either misunderstand what's going on or just think being negative makes them cool.

This isn't, and isn't intended to be, a replacement for alt-accounts.

There are many circumstances where people would like to train a character for only a month or two and that's it. Something like a PI/Industry/Research/Trade/Probing alt doesn't need to be logged in at the same time as the main character.

Right now you have three options:
a) Stop training on your main to train the alt
b) Train character on another account and keep that account active so you can use the character
c) Train character on another account and transfer the character to your main when it's done

This gives you the option to train a character for a month or two without disrupting your main's training, and without having to PLEX an extra account forever or pay TWO PLEX to transfer the character when you are done.


This actually SAVES you PLEX in the limited circumstances where it makes sense to use.

CCP gave us an additional feature that many people requested without taking anything away from anyone else.
There is literally nothing to complain about with this.

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2013-05-15 19:01:56 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game.


Why not?

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.

Well, that time should be shown too. Why not? And the players would not see it "all the time", just when their character sheet is open. Even then they would not see a time ticking down, just the expiration date and time.


I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.

I fully understand the need for limiting things that conflict with immersion. But...PLEX. Its already all over the game. Putting on the character sheet "Pilot's license expires on DD/MM/YYYY at HH:MM:SS" would not be immersion breaking. Nor would "Secondary training license expires on..."

Also if you are interested in immersion the transaction tab in the wallet has a filter labeled "player donation". I'm a cybernetic demi-god flying around in a metal egg. Whats a "player"?


Excellent points, +1.


.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#68 - 2013-05-15 19:02:03 UTC
Riffix wrote:
Meh.

I know I am in the minority on this but I think alts in this game are stupid, period.

This MMO doesn't have class/race/faction restrictions of any kind so there is no good reason to have more than one character.

All they do is reduce the need for players to work together, whether it's industry, PVE, or PVP. They also players to avoid responsibility by hiding behind things like forum alts, throw away neutral spies, and things like being a super-cap pilot no longer has to be a lifestyle choice, just an alt you log when needed.

This just makes the problem worse.

.



You are correct in the sense that there are no class/race/faction restrictions, but at one point choosingthe race you played offered an advatage in some areas that lacked in other races. That has long since been removed; however, I do nto share in your evaluation of the uses of alts. I challenge you to ask one person on this forum this question, "If you were restricted to just one character and one account...would you train that character to be a cyno pilot and basically be a throw away guy each time for the benefit of others?" I bet the majority would say, "no, I would rather train it to do something fun and useful."

The nice thing about EVE is that you ARENT restricted to certain task via class/race like in WoW but rather you can do multiple roles if your skills support them. Having an alt allows you to do the boring jobs like sitting off grid providing orca boost that no one else would do actively. Usually these alts are used in this scope; however, they can be used as scouts and such. Personally, I don't feel comfortable multi-boxing two pvp toons at the same time, but there are some who do >.<

The point being made here is that having an alt is not stupid at all for the design of the game, they are more of a supporting role then anything. When people play this game, they want to actually do stuff, not sit and be essentially a passive part of the game. Having an alt allows them to do both. Granted, there are some who have 4 accounts run at the same time, and when you get up to 5-10 accounts then yes, you are pretty much destroying the social aspect of EVE. However, there is nothing wrong with having 2 accounts to get what you need done.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#69 - 2013-05-15 19:11:18 UTC
I approve of this service/function totally. So much so why not implement it yesterday? Lol
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
SunTsu Rae
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-05-15 19:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

If you have the system muscle to even offer this, then it should be done for all toons on paid accounts.

The user can still only log in once per account so they only get to use 1 toon per account.

I could see restricting it if you could log in 2 or 3 times per account, but it does not happen.

"No Restrictions !" is my battlecry.

Skill them all on the account equally.

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Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-05-15 19:21:52 UTC
I'm guessing yes, but can you confirm that the 2nd character receiving training can be switched during the 30 day period? So if I activate this, can I spend 15 days dual- training Main 1 + Alt 2 and the other 15 days training Main 1 + Alt 3?

CCP RubberBAND wrote:
xttz wrote:
Will you use this opportunity to make single character training a bit more usable?

Let's say I want to train a very short skill (a few hours) on an alt character that isn't worth a plex. Currently we have to:

1) Log out
2) Log in the character currently training and pause it.
3) Log out again
4) Log back into the character you want to train temporarily and start the skill.

Why can't starting a skill from an alt automatically pause the other character on the same account?


It's funny because we were just discussing how the technical changes implemented to allow for this feature would also allow for pausing a character you are not logged into. Not likely to make it for Odyssey but certainly something we will consider for the future.

Take it a step further - how about allowing us to set multi-character skill queues, so that when my main finishes a skill the queue can switch over to training skills for the alt?

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Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2013-05-15 19:26:21 UTC
The information how much Dual Training time remains could be shown in the "Pilot License" Tab of the character info.
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#73 - 2013-05-15 19:28:52 UTC
I like it!

Why?
If you have a alt with a long training in mind, you might be better off with an additional account via subscription.
But once that is done and you just want to use it, dual character training is a great way to update it from time to time.

Without subscription, i.e. if you would fuel the account with plex anyway, it comes down to parallel usage or not.
If not you're better off with dual character training, since you may pause the training but still be able to use it and continue training later on.

Thumbs up! I'm looking forward to it!
Aiko Intaki
Lodizal Shield Tek
#74 - 2013-05-15 19:34:23 UTC
Not a fan of this for the following reason:

- CCP begins with an arbitrary limit of 1 character training per account.
- Players get multiple accounts to circumvent the limitation.
- CCP sees this and offers to remove the arbitrary limit, for a price.

This, in my opinion, is a dark shade of monetization. It isn't as bone-headed as the monocle, but it's a ****** thing to do.

If there is no longer any technical justification or community/market concerns supporting the 1 character per account training limit, simply remove it. Don't nickel and dime us to get around an arbitrary limit you've imposed on us.
Kor'el Izia
#75 - 2013-05-15 19:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kor'el Izia
CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Quote:
snip

I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.


If you want verisimilitude/realism you'll add expiration date to the "Character Sheet->Pilot License" window, IRL I can see the expiration date on my drivers license and bank card, surely they've figured out to put a date on a thing in the future?
David Magnus
#76 - 2013-05-15 19:50:02 UTC
Aiko Intaki wrote:
Not a fan of this for the following reason:

- CCP begins with an arbitrary limit of 1 character training per account.
- Players get multiple accounts to circumvent the limitation.
- CCP sees this and offers to remove the arbitrary limit, for a price.

This, in my opinion, is a dark shade of monetization. It isn't as bone-headed as the monocle, but it's a ****** thing to do.

If there is no longer any technical justification or community/market concerns supporting the 1 character per account training limit, simply remove it. Don't nickel and dime us to get around an arbitrary limit you've imposed on us.


I doubt it was ever an arbitrary technical limitation.
It a massive game design issue - suddenly allowing 3x more characters to be training all at once has a lot of long-term unforeseen consequences I would bet.

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Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#77 - 2013-05-15 19:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Deornoth Drake
Aiko Intaki wrote:
Not a fan of this for the following reason:

- CCP begins with an arbitrary limit of 1 character training per account.
- Players get multiple accounts to circumvent the limitation.
- CCP sees this and offers to remove the arbitrary limit, for a price.

This, in my opinion, is a dark shade of monetization. It isn't as bone-headed as the monocle, but it's a ****** thing to do.

If there is no longer any technical justification or community/market concerns supporting the 1 character per account training limit, simply remove it. Don't nickel and dime us to get around an arbitrary limit you've imposed on us.


I have to confess that it would be very welcome that way as well.

No matter what the guys at CCP need to get paid. Just dropping the limit could cut the income of CCP by a not so small percentage. Maybe it's the first step towards the Triple-Character-Training without additional payment.
Meytal
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-05-15 19:52:59 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.

Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.

Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.

Also speaking up for having the remaining time shown in the Pilot License section of the Character Sheet window. I was actually surprised that it wasn't there after returning from a break. It doesn't have to be such a break in immersion, as there are multiple ways to express this (as another poster points out).

There are times when gameplay forces unusual situations that break with what you might expect from the "simulation", so it's equally legitimate to say that there could be times when Account Management reasons force a break from the immersion as a tradeoff for convenience to the users.


Also, combining multiple accounts into one super-account would be absolutely heavenly. On the Account Services page, you could queue up orders into one "Shopping Cart", or whatever, and make one single payment at the end.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#79 - 2013-05-15 20:00:33 UTC
Anathema Matou wrote:
This new feature has a UI problem. Please keep the option to activate dual training 2 steps away from activate game time, to avoid... accidents Roll, i.e. below the "return to redeem items" option.

This was the first thing I thought of when I saw the screenshot.

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Laendra
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-05-15 20:00:34 UTC
xttz wrote:
Will you use this opportunity to make single character training a bit more usable?

Let's say I want to train a very short skill (a few hours) on an alt character that isn't worth a plex. Currently we have to:

1) Log out
2) Log in the character currently training and pause it.
3) Log out again
4) Log back into the character you want to train temporarily and start the skill.

Why can't starting a skill from an alt automatically pause the other character on the same account?



This, to be honest. Dual Training is also a great feature, but this would be a tremendous usability improvement

Also, logging off to character selection, or Switch Characters would be another great usability improvement.

Is PLEX going to be the only option, or do we have a cash option too?