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Woot, woot. Now even easier to get out of a war dec.

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#121 - 2013-05-14 21:42:08 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Being able to turn pvp off at will isn't "sandbox."


Wait, what?! I can turn off suicide gank?

Nope. That's why it's "sandbox."

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#122 - 2013-05-14 21:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
You can't accommodate those who want a kill everyone, antisocial, not enough creation game and those who want a fun game where cooperation is the one & only thing and other choices have no place in the same server. You want easy kills fed to you on a silver platter so you don't have to think.


please stop trying to turn the tables around when you're the one who has cried nonstop about your easy-mode risk-free 150m/hour+LP vanguard farming being nerfed lmao


The tables were easily turned when he Goons got dogpiled too & screamed
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2013-05-14 21:43:01 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
A slaughter house where people get sick of dying so quickly when first learning isn't a sandbox either when the blood makes mud untenable for a newbie to do anything but sink after taking a single step


You're not a newbie and you've thrown tantrums, threatened to unsub and pounded your fist on the table whenever anything has threatened your ability to mindlessly farm massive amounts of ISK in hisec, which as you say, is supposed to be "safe" so that newbies (i.e. not you) can learn the game

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
floating in space
#124 - 2013-05-14 21:43:29 UTC
I heard about a CEO who would assign roles to all new members in order to basically keep them prisoner.

They would drop roles, usually log off . Then if they came back on within 24 hours he would publicly shame them into staying with the corp. Then slap new roles on them as soon as he could.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2013-05-14 21:43:52 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
The tables were easily turned into the FW LP free for all they deserve to be turned here too because they can and should


There's literally more risk in mindlessly farming FW LP in a cloaky frigate than there is in incursions

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#126 - 2013-05-14 21:44:17 UTC
Andski wrote:
Zephyrial wrote:
An apparently novel idea would be to war dec someone that will fight back? Then the war dec is not 'pointless', only the war decs against non-PvP industrial corps?

Maybe I misunderstand it, but the whine here is that you cannot dec and painlessly gank players that decide they don't want to be ganked?


If the possibility of being shot at is too much for you, you're playing the wrong game, period.

If hisec pvp'ers believe in getting shot at, why are they in hisec? Hisec pvp'ers (with some exceptions) are essentially making the argument that their victims should be able to be targeted while simultaneously choosing to limit the number of people who can shoot them. They choose their target and in so doing they choose who can target them. And they never target anyone who can actually fight back effectively. If these people are truly interested in fighting, why aren't they putting themselves at real risk?

There are actually 3 separate levels to the discussion going on here: the conceptual, the actual, and the meta. Conceptually, wardecs make sense-- hisec entities can fight over resources while limiting their exposure to attacks from anyone but their chosen target. Actually, they are pointless, because the individuals can exit the situation whenever they want. In the meta, we're having a discussion about non-consensual pvp and who should be subject to it and under what conditions. I don't have any problem with people being subject to non-consensual pvp, but I do have a problem with attackers subjecting other people to non-consensual pvp while shielding themselves from it. That's why I have no problem with suicide ganking. Those people know exactly what's going to happen when they pull the trigger and they have no problem with that. They know they'll generate kill rights and low sec status and they accept that risk too. It's a proper balance.

Maybe what we should ask first is, what is hisec for? What does hisec mean? Why is it there at all? If all it means is a 30 minute delay before someone can start shooting you (as suggested in this thread), what is its point?
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2013-05-14 21:44:18 UTC
floating in space wrote:
I heard about a CEO who would assign roles to all new members in order to basically keep them prisoner.

They would drop roles, usually log off . Then if they came back on within 24 hours he would publicly shame them into staying with the corp. Then slap new roles on them as soon as he could.


You obviously made that up because once you drop roles you can no longer be assigned any

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2013-05-14 21:44:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
My choice to play the way I want to play? Yeah.. I get to make that choice, and you do NOT get to force me to stop playing the way I want to play.

Deal with it.


Nobody's stopping you from playing the way you want to play, you just had to make slight adjustments like everyone else in the game, princess. Watching local for wartargets for a while until your roles drop is just too much of a burden I guess :(



Princess? Ad hominem attack, is proof you have lost the argument.

Watching local? Sure, that is all you have to do in high sec, when you are at war.... No one would EVER use an out of corp alt to bump your ship so you can't get out of a belt, while they bring the war dec corp ship in from a couple jumps away to kill you.


Paaaahhhhhlease.



You war dec.

I have some choices.
1) give you you what you want. Easy kills against an unskilled PvPer. I NEVER, EVER, EVER choose this option.
2) Not undock for the duration
3) Drop corp.

Either way, 2 or 3 means you are not guaranteed a chance to blow up my ships.

When you war dec, you are not buying targets. You are buying the remote possibility that someone might choose option 1.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#129 - 2013-05-14 21:44:52 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Being able to turn pvp off at will isn't "sandbox."


Wait, what?! I can turn off suicide gank?


You are more likely to be involved in a road traffic accident than ganked.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#130 - 2013-05-14 21:45:16 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:
words


More lies, they can be wardecced all the same.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#131 - 2013-05-14 21:46:22 UTC
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The tables were easily turned into the FW LP free for all they deserve to be turned here too because they can and should


There's literally more risk in mindlessly farming FW LP in a cloaky frigate than there is in incursions


Malarky CCP Soundwave even dismissed that BS last year during the summer CSM notes. You think the button orbiting ship losses come close to the losses from HI SEC incursion boats Roll
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-05-14 21:46:53 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
1) give you you what you want. Easy kills against an unskilled PvPer. I NEVER, EVER, EVER choose this option.


If they're so unskilled why aren't you killing them off mercilessly

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2013-05-14 21:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
DarthNefarius wrote:
Malarky CCP Soundwave even dismissed that BS last year during the summer CSM notes. You think the button orbiting ship losses come close to the losses from HI SEC incursion boats Roll


The fact that a few players are so awful that they die to glorified belt rats (which are softened for the hisec players since they don't camp the gates and they don't scram) doesn't make incursions risky, or they made awful decisions in who to pick to fly logistics, doesn't make incursions risky. Try again

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#134 - 2013-05-14 21:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The tables were easily turned into the FW LP free for all they deserve to be turned here too because they can and should


There's literally more risk in mindlessly farming FW LP in a cloaky frigate than there is in incursions


What abou all the risk in exploighting the system to create FW LP almost out of thin air by market manipulation? I recall Goons crying & screaming when that exploight was shut down & ill gotten gains taken.
The risk wasn't a ban... some1 got a PLEX instead Bear
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2013-05-14 21:49:55 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The tables were easily turned into the FW LP free for all they deserve to be turned here too because they can and should


There's literally more risk in mindlessly farming FW LP in a cloaky frigate than there is in incursions


Malarky CCP Soundwave even dismissed that BS last year during the summer CSM notes. You think the button orbiting ship losses come close to the losses from HI SEC incursion boats Roll


It will be far higher.

High sec incursions are as risky as levels 4s at this point.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#136 - 2013-05-14 21:50:22 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
What abou all the risk in exploighting the system to create FW LP almost out of thin air buy market manipulation? I recall Goons crying & screaming when that exploight was shut down & ill gotten gains taken.


You mean the time that the speculators lost hundreds of billions of ISK that they initially set aside, from their own fortunes? Right, that didn't carry any risk at all!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
rswfire
#137 - 2013-05-14 21:51:14 UTC
So much crying in this topic. I thought only carebears did that...? Shocked

I welcome this change. Eve has taught me patience in ways I never thought possible for me, but if they want to implement the means to reduce or eliminate cooldown periods, I'll gladly embrace them. We currently don't give roles to most members because of this game mechanic. I don't want to lock an awoxer into our alliance for 24 hours, so I'll wait and see how they work out, and they'll have to be more patient than myself it they want to succeed at their goal. Same for infiltrators.

There are some people who have made intelligent comments in this thread on both sides. I'll summarize:

- People who don't want to fight you simply will not fight you. Just accept it already.
- If you want to fight, go look for a "good fight." Note I didn't say "fair fight." Isn't that more enjoyable anyway?
- Wardecs are rarely used for any meaningful reason except to cause "tears" and "grief."
- Wardecs still serve a useful purpose against foes who have things they want to defend, so this change will not affect that.
- I imagine our divine overlords like money, so they are going to accommodate an environment that does its best to balance the needs of both. Accept this.
- There are many ways to play this game. There are many styles of play. The second "E" in "Eve" is not capitalized.
- Eve is ten years old. Like all good things, it has evolved with time. Evolve or stagnant. Those are your choices.
- Eve is still a "cold, harsh place." But that doesn't seem to really interest a lot of you; you'd rather attack carebears than anyone who can fight back efficiently.
- The above doesn't apply to everyone, obviously, but certainly to many of those posting here.
- Too many times I've seen alliances refuse to fight each other. Mercs will dramatically increase the cost of a contract for any corp/alliance that looks like it will be a tough fight. They do this because they know it won't be easy.
- I don't know if that extends to others, but my guess is it does. Why do you want soft targets so much? You call carebears risk-averse, but isn't only attacking carebears risk-averse on your part?

So, yeah. Continue this never-ending debate while CCP continues to make the changes it feels are best for the game.

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2013-05-14 21:52:10 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:

Maybe what we should ask first is, what is hisec for? What does hisec mean? Why is it there at all? If all it means is a 30 minute delay before someone can start shooting you (as suggested in this thread), what is its point?


Agreed. This is the KEY point of this topic.


It is my opinion that high sec exists as a mechanism for CCP to attract people of various play styles to the game. The game mechanics have been created that allow me to play the way I want to play, mostly avoiding ship-to-ship PvP, if I so desire. I see the existence of high sec, NPC corps, CONCORD, etc. as proof that CCP wants to accommodate many different play styles.

This is reinforced to me by statements at fanfest and other locations, where they say they consider solo and casual play style to be perfectly legitimate, and in their eyes, just as valid as hard core ship-to-ship PvP play style.



If you are one of those players that thinks EVE is a a cold, harsh place, super dangerous, and only accommodates hard core ship-to-ship PvP play style, then why do you think high sec exists?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#139 - 2013-05-14 21:52:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The tables were easily turned into the FW LP free for all they deserve to be turned here too because they can and should


There's literally more risk in mindlessly farming FW LP in a cloaky frigate than there is in incursions


Malarky CCP Soundwave even dismissed that BS last year during the summer CSM notes. You think the button orbiting ship losses come close to the losses from HI SEC incursion boats Roll


It will be far higher.

High sec incursions are as risky as levels 4s at this point.


FW BUTTON ship orbiting losses where greater then Incursion ship losses last summer? Bullshite
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#140 - 2013-05-14 21:52:27 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
The tables were easily turned into the FW LP free for all they deserve to be turned here too because they can and should


There's literally more risk in mindlessly farming FW LP in a cloaky frigate than there is in incursions


What abou all the risk in exploighting the system to create FW LP almost out of thin air by market manipulation? I recall Goons crying & screaming when that exploight was shut down & ill gotten gains taken.
The risk wasn't a ban... some1 got a PLEX instead Bear

That was literally five people. When we only have five people complaining about losing ships during wars, give us a call.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted