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Woot, woot. Now even easier to get out of a war dec.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#181 - 2013-05-14 22:24:42 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Andski wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
FW BUTTON ship orbiting losses where greater then Incursion ship losses last summer? Bullshite


Right, incursions are super risky and dangerous, which is why everyone flies 4b faction-fit machariels to farm them endlessly

They're safer than any other present PvE that even comes close to its rewards


The FW button orbiting was EXTREMELY safe when it came to risk versus rewards. They were making more then double per hour than the legion Incursion fleets of old & I bet the ISK value of legions lost in NCO site's was far higher then button orbiting farmers.

Wish CCP Diagoras was around to enlighten the statistics


So because a supercarrier died to anom rats we should class them as being very dangerous?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-05-14 22:24:48 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
rswfire wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
EVE grew faster when it was more dangerous.


This is an honest question: Did it grow faster and sustain those numbers? I can understand that people will find the conflict of Eve interesting enough to trial/sub, but do those people stick around for very long?

Obviously EVE is growing much slower now, if it's growing at all (seems to be stuck on a plat plane atm). This coincides very well with CCP's decisions in the past few years to make the game softer and easier. Privateer nerfs, CONCORD buffs, war nerfs, etc etc, all correlate with growth tapering off. While I'm not establishing a cause-effect relationship here, it does make me wonder what the driving factors behind this game's success truly are.

And yes, those people stayed for quite a long time. You're talking to one such person right now.



It is an unfair comparison to say EVE is growing more slowly now than in the past, so is moving in the wrong direction.

Growth rate is (new players signing up - old players quitting)/current player base. When there were not any old players to quit and the player base was small, of course growth was higher than it is today.


Muslims use a similar argument. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the USA. Sure... it is also amongst the smallest. To get a 10% growth rate, all they need to do is attract 100K members. 100K new members is like 0.001% growth rate for Christianity. It would be impossible for Christianity to get a 10% growth rate for a couple years, because they'd run out of non-Christians in like 2 years.

The bottom line is, there are more players now then there were before.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#183 - 2013-05-14 22:26:58 UTC
Wardec immunity is like declaring that you only consent to winning (by earning obscene amounts of profit in market PVP at the expense of everyone else, especially new players), and will never consent to or accept losing, or doing anything that you won't win at.
Danni stark
#184 - 2013-05-14 22:27:37 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
The bottom line is, there are more players now then there were before.


there are also two servers now, unlike before.

Ice Mining Skill Plan.
rswfire
#185 - 2013-05-14 22:27:56 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
rswfire wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
EVE grew faster when it was more dangerous.


This is an honest question: Did it grow faster and sustain those numbers? I can understand that people will find the conflict of Eve interesting enough to trial/sub, but do those people stick around for very long?


Player retention is an invalid argument here. We do not have those numbers, CCP does, and they do what they need to in order to optimize them.


I asked a question; I did not raise an argument. In fact, my question was in relation to an argument raised. That said, I do believe it is a valid argument here. If someone says Eve grows faster when it is more dangerous, they are essentially saying that more people are subbing and playing it (presumably people who had not been exposed to Eve previously), so the next logical question is, "Did those people stick around?" We may not have CCP's numbers, but we're a fairly educated bunch of people capable of making educated guesses.

About Firesworn Nation .|. FB .|. G+ .|. Steam
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#186 - 2013-05-14 22:28:00 UTC
Except that EVE is a global franchise, yet it still grew form a few thousand active players to a few tens of thousands. Are you telling me there's only a few million gamers in the world? Or that only a few hundred thousand people like science fiction and spaceships? Why hasn't EVE grown at ALL for the past three years, on average?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Rena Emishi
Doomheim
#187 - 2013-05-14 22:28:43 UTC
Nice another way to make war dec's pointless. I mean wtf guys wtf

_Valar Morghulis, Valar Dohaeris _
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#188 - 2013-05-14 22:29:41 UTC
The idea that EVE needs to make substantial changes to the game that risk disillusioning their core players in order to slightly improve the chances of a minority of players continuing to give them their $15/month is shortsided if not laughable

PvP is not unique to EVE, but MMOs like EVE where nobody is truly safe are rare, especially when their player numbers are in the six digits. There are plenty of games where you can mindlessly farm gold while being untouchable, and other games deliver that mindless farming better than EVE does. You can prevent worthless carebears from quitting because they get ganked, but you can't prevent them from saying "this space crap sucks oh well back to WoW"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#189 - 2013-05-14 22:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Andski wrote:
The idea that combat in hisec should only be between consenting parties is absolute horseshit simply because the other party will stop consenting when they're losing

I absolutely agree, and furthermore even think that it would never get to that stage. How many entities aside from RvB even do consenting combat?


Everyone that undocks.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#190 - 2013-05-14 22:30:10 UTC
rswfire wrote:
I asked a question; I did not raise an argument. In fact, my question was in relation to an argument raised. That said, I do believe it is a valid argument here. If someone says Eve grows faster when it is more dangerous, they are essentially saying that more people are subbing and playing it (presumably people who had not been exposed to Eve previously), so the next logical question is, "Did those people stick around?" We may not have CCP's numbers, but we're a fairly educated bunch of people capable of making educated guesses.

Yes, they do, because the ones who leave will leave despite any variable amount of danger involved, as long as there is any.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#191 - 2013-05-14 22:30:33 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Except that EVE is a global franchise, yet it still grew form a few thousand active players to a few tens of thousands. Are you telling me there's only a few million gamers in the world? Or that only a few hundred thousand people like science fiction and spaceships? Why hasn't EVE grown at ALL for the past three years, on average?


It has. Oddly enough when CCP stopped nerfing PVP and started adding to it.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#192 - 2013-05-14 22:31:20 UTC
Rena Emishi wrote:
Nice another way to make war dec's pointless. I mean wtf guys wtf


And a pvp oriented/experienced corp wardec'ing a new-player friendly indy corp isn't already pointless?

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#193 - 2013-05-14 22:33:01 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Andski wrote:
The idea that combat in hisec should only be between consenting parties is absolute horseshit simply because the other party will stop consenting when they're losing

I absolutely agree, and furthermore even think that it would never get to that stage. How many entities aside from RvB even do consenting combat?


Everyone that undocks.

Combat implies both parties taking offensive actions. Ganking is pvp, but it's not combat. Let's not confuse the two.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#194 - 2013-05-14 22:33:10 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:


And a pvp oriented/experienced corp wardec'ing a new-player friendly indy corp isn't already pointless?


Why would you wardec a corp full of new players? They have no isk you can take from them.

Wardec a group full of old bitter veterans, there are plenty of those.
rswfire
#195 - 2013-05-14 22:35:37 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Yes, they do, because the ones who leave will leave despite any variable amount of danger involved, as long as there is any.


I agree with that. I don't agree with everything you say, but I don't have to, which is why you'll see me liking your comments while opposing others, haha. I was genuinely curious to hear others thoughts on the point you raised. I just feel that you can't say something is growing unless it also retains that growth. Simple logic, that's all. (And not implying you would think otherwise.)

About Firesworn Nation .|. FB .|. G+ .|. Steam
Ryu Ibarazaki
Doomheim
#196 - 2013-05-14 22:36:05 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Wardec immunity is like declaring that you only consent to winning (by earning obscene amounts of profit in market PVP at the expense of everyone else, especially new players), and will never consent to or accept losing, or doing anything that you won't win at.


I was just thinking the same thing; in this environment a new EVE industrialist can still be shut down. But an older player with multiple accounts and a network of alt-corps will be next to impossible to seriously impact.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2013-05-14 22:37:22 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Rena Emishi wrote:
Nice another way to make war dec's pointless. I mean wtf guys wtf


And a pvp oriented/experienced corp wardec'ing a new-player friendly indy corp isn't already pointless?


Hence why all but a tiny fraction dont.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#198 - 2013-05-14 22:37:39 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:


And a pvp oriented/experienced corp wardec'ing a new-player friendly indy corp isn't already pointless?


Why would you wardec a corp full of new players? They have no isk you can take from them.

Wardec a group full of old bitter veterans, there are plenty of those.


Happens more than you think. They're not after the isk. Why Hisec wars are most often a case of risk-averse (Carebearing it up) pvp'ers wanting some barges to pewpew safely.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#199 - 2013-05-14 22:40:34 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:


And a pvp oriented/experienced corp wardec'ing a new-player friendly indy corp isn't already pointless?


Why would you wardec a corp full of new players? They have no isk you can take from them.

Wardec a group full of old bitter veterans, there are plenty of those.


Happens more than you think. They're not after the isk. Why Hisec wars are most often a case of risk-averse (Carebearing it up) pvp'ers wanting some barges to pewpew safely.

Not really, no. But it seems to be this one great myth that carebears believe in order to justify their viewpoints. High-sec pvpers like kills, but kills are not meaningful if the target either doesn't put up some resistance, or at least drops expensive modules to profit from.

Most of us don't war for the easy kills, and the ones who do are new and quickly grow out of that phase.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#200 - 2013-05-14 22:41:04 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:


Happens more than you think. They're not after the isk. Why Hisec wars are most often a case of risk-averse (Carebearing it up) pvp'ers wanting some barges to pewpew safely.


Its far cheaper, easier and effective to just gank them. Hell you even make a profit most of the time.

War decs are useless for this activity.