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Navy Raven: The Return of the King

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stoicfaux
#41 - 2013-05-14 18:15:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

OK so from your provided numbers - I'll take your word for it that they're accurate as I'm at work and cannot check -

(1) Where ever you have put a decimal, this should really be rounded up to the next integer. You can't fire "2.61 volleys" to kill an Arch Gistum Centurion; you actually have to fire 3.00 volleys @ 8.54 seconds (25.62s) instead of 5 volleys @ 6.74 seconds (33.7). The new CNR will take 8.08 seconds less, which is more than a whole current cycle quicker.

Have faith. 2.61 is the "fractional volleys to kill" (fVTK). The "volleys to kill" (VTK) gets rounded up. Fractional volleys is useful in that if you see "3.05" volleys to kill, then a 5% implant or a faction TP may be enough to get you under 3.0 and save you a volley. The time to kill (TTK) is based on the VTK, not the fVTK.

You can see both listed in the spreadsheet/PDF. You can also see the missile formulas listed. It's interesting to note that even with a Flare2 rig, the target velocity missile formula (i.e. MF2) determines applied damage.

Quote:
(2) In virtually every example you list, the Odyssey CNR is at least one volley quicker, sometimes several quicker. ODyssey volleys take longer, but you need a 4 Odyssey (34.16s) vs 5 current volley (33.7s) situation for the lines to cross. The Pith Eliminator is an example here - but a simple +3% damage implant brings the Odyssey CNR to 3 volleys while leaving the current one at 5.

(3) Even with the fraction volleys counted, the Odyssey CNR is getting quicker kill times with almost every ship (except the Guristas BCs which just die).

If you compare the current CNR agains the Odyssey CNR w/Er bonus, then yes. However, if the Odyssey CNR had kept the RoF bonus and 7 launchers (the "Cruise Buff" CNR in the spreadsheet/pdf), it would kill faster most of the time. I'm especially annoyed that swapping the RoF bonus for a Er bonus means that it takes longer to kill battleships (it was already possible to get 100% damage on battleships, so reducing DPS means slower BS kills.)

Quote:
The tl:dr is that for the great majority of missions, the Odyssey Cruise CNR will finish the mission significantly, perceptibly faster, and use less ammo to do it as a bonus. The fact that Odyssey CNRs will also move over 1/3 faster is icing on the cake.

The Odyssey CNR will be impressive, we can agree on that. However, it would have been more impressive if it had kept the RoF bonus.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#42 - 2013-05-14 18:17:57 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Any chance you can use this for precisions aswell, and a fit containing two RF TP's and a combo of Rigor II, Rigor II, Rigor I ? I would be highly interested in them.

Yes. It's here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread

Use EFT or Pyfa to get the stats to add your entry to the "1_Missile Profiles" tab. Then select your missile profile from the dropdowns in AB1, AJ1, etc. to see the numbers.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#43 - 2013-05-14 18:34:43 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.



actually explosion radius have increased Lol
CCP Rise wrote:

...
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


Note: i'm sure Rise misused + and - here... Or this is some kind of math i'm not aware of.....

It's a bonus that winds up reducing explosion radius. The terminology is a bit confusing.

The first part of the missile damage formula (MF1) is sig / Er. If the target's sig is 100 and your Er is 200, then 100/200 = 0.5, so you'll do at most 50% damage. The Odyssey CNR's 25% Er bonus reduces the explosion radius, so 100 / (200 * .75) = 100 / 150 = .667, so you'll do up to 67% of your max damage.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#44 - 2013-05-14 19:37:57 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

The Odyssey CNR will be impressive, we can agree on that. However, it would have been more impressive if it had kept the RoF bonus.



I know it would. And it would have been nerfbatted pretty damb quick too!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#45 - 2013-05-14 19:45:37 UTC
I mean come on people you can't honestly have expected anything else?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2013-05-14 19:47:37 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:


The first part of the missile damage formula (MF1) is sig / Er. If the target's sig is 100 and your Er is 200, then 100/200 = 0.5, so you'll do at most 50% damage. The Odyssey CNR's 25% Er bonus reduces the explosion radius, so 100 / (200 * .75) = 100 / 150 = .667, so you'll do up to 67% of your max damage.




Are you taking into account the 10 % increase in explosion radius of cruise missiles? You would need to drop your max "bonus" radius to 15% if a pilot has Caldari BS5.

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-05-14 20:19:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I mean come on people you can't honestly have expected anything else?

I agree, seeing how they have screwed up everything else too they have recently touched i can't really say i expected any good things...
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-05-14 21:23:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I mean come on people you can't honestly have expected anything else?


no, even I haven't expected that the CNR will be allowed to do 1140 DPS with cruises, but the proposed state is not worth it either. I've tried to make things clear to you, yet you refused to read it.

SNI and CNR have the same damage, yet the resist-bonus is way stronger as the CNR's range bonus (and the SNI can fit atleast one Tp more than the raven, which more or less equals the ER-Bonus...

Where's the justifcation for the raven beeing flat out worse than the SNI (don't even get started with the Golem)? It has less tank, same gank, almost same applied dmg, significantly less buffer, more fitting issues, less utility.. and for all that it get's more range, which is likely not going to be used ? Come on Dude, seriously?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-05-14 21:28:00 UTC
not everyone has the tp related skills trained fully so

1. They might not always apply after 30km
2. The second one doesn't increase their sig radius that much

Art of Explosions
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2013-05-14 21:49:10 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I mean come on people you can't honestly have expected anything else?


no, even I haven't expected that the CNR will be allowed to do 1140 DPS with cruises, but the proposed state is not worth it either. I've tried to make things clear to you, yet you refused to read it.

SNI and CNR have the same damage, yet the resist-bonus is way stronger as the CNR's range bonus (and the SNI can fit atleast one Tp more than the raven, which more or less equals the ER-Bonus...

Where's the justifcation for the raven beeing flat out worse than the SNI (don't even get started with the Golem)? It has less tank, same gank, almost same applied dmg, significantly less buffer, more fitting issues, less utility.. and for all that it get's more range, which is likely not going to be used ? Come on Dude, seriously?


Are we talking PvE here?

The CNR can easily tank as much as required, and has superior damage application.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-05-14 22:06:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

The Odyssey CNR will be impressive, we can agree on that. However, it would have been more impressive if it had kept the RoF bonus.



I know it would. And it would have been nerfbatted pretty damb quick too!


This. I honestly expected the CNR to be nerfed, but I expected it to be nerfed in the winter expansion. CCP's wilingness to deal with navy Battleships now is the only surprise here.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-05-14 22:15:42 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:


SNI and CNR have the same damage,


There is no scenario where the SNI does more damage than the CNR. There are many scenarios where the CNR does more damage than the SNI.

In short: you are provably wrong here.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-05-15 00:04:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:


SNI and CNR have the same damage,


There is no scenario where the SNI does more damage than the CNR. There are many scenarios where the CNR does more damage than the SNI.

In short: you are provably wrong here.


SNI kept its 5% rof bonus, CNR didn't. That's equivalent of more than 8 launchers vs exactly 8 launchers.
stoicfaux
#54 - 2013-05-15 02:00:07 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:


SNI and CNR have the same damage,


There is no scenario where the SNI does more damage than the CNR. There are many scenarios where the CNR does more damage than the SNI.

In short: you are provably wrong here.


SNI kept its 5% rof bonus, CNR didn't. That's equivalent of more than 8 launchers vs exactly 8 launchers.

The Raven, Golem, Typhoon, SNI, and CNR now have the same effective 8 launchers. The Fleet Typhoon has an effective 8.25 launchers (and 5 sentries...)

CNR's DPS advantages over the SNI are:
a) that it can field 3 sentries versus the SNI's two (assuming you keep a flight of lights on standby.)
b) CNR's velocity bonus means less chance of miscounting volleys and losing DPS,
c) CNR having 8 launchers means that NPC defenders cause less DPS loss (assuming all launchers in one group)
d) CNR's Er bonus can translate into an additional saved volley
e) CNR is somewhat less reliant on TP juggling and TP falloff.


Anyway, the CNR isn't the Queen of Cruise Missiles anymore. If you can shield tank the Fleet Typhoon and use the lows for BCUs and drone damage mods then Fleet Typhoon is most likely better than the CNR. (But CPU is really tight on the typhoon.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-05-15 03:22:04 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:


SNI and CNR have the same damage,


There is no scenario where the SNI does more damage than the CNR. There are many scenarios where the CNR does more damage than the SNI.

In short: you are provably wrong here.


SNI kept its 5% rof bonus, CNR didn't. That's equivalent of more than 8 launchers vs exactly 8 launchers.

The Raven, Golem, Typhoon, SNI, and CNR now have the same effective 8 launchers. The Fleet Typhoon has an effective 8.25 launchers (and 5 sentries...)

CNR's DPS advantages over the SNI are:
a) that it can field 3 sentries versus the SNI's two (assuming you keep a flight of lights on standby.)
b) CNR's velocity bonus means less chance of miscounting volleys and losing DPS,
c) CNR having 8 launchers means that NPC defenders cause less DPS loss (assuming all launchers in one group)
d) CNR's Er bonus can translate into an additional saved volley
e) CNR is somewhat less reliant on TP juggling and TP falloff.


Anyway, the CNR isn't the Queen of Cruise Missiles anymore. If you can shield tank the Fleet Typhoon and use the lows for BCUs and drone damage mods then Fleet Typhoon is most likely better than the CNR. (But CPU is really tight on the typhoon.)



Anybody actually use 3 sentries on the missileboats? Or is that purely a EFT thing that real ppl don't bother with? After all, it's an extra 20 dps over a flight of meds, if you use short range Gardes that I assume won't have omnis...Roll

Velocity doesn't mean anything unless for torps, just learn to count, it's easy.

Most npc defenders don't actually pop one cruise out of the batch, it's the heavies that have trouble. Lower rof and bigger volley just means more dps wasted, unless you ungroup launchers.

CNR lacks mids. Once TE/TC hits missiles, that scripted TC will give 30% tracking. SNI slot layout is full of win. Additional range is useless for cruise.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-05-15 03:24:13 UTC
I think people (should) use wardens on missile boats. Since you don't fit omnis you want the longest range sentry if you were going to use them at all.

Art of Explosions
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#57 - 2013-05-15 04:03:06 UTC
remember when they broke the typhoon and let it have 6 launchers/guns? That was the ****. They need to bring that back. I would actually undock my navy issue for that. err fleet issue...

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-05-15 05:01:22 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I think people (should) use wardens on missile boats. Since you don't fit omnis you want the longest range sentry if you were going to use them at all.


And then it will have less dps than a flight of regular drones. What's the point?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#59 - 2013-05-15 05:46:54 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I think people (should) use wardens on missile boats. Since you don't fit omnis you want the longest range sentry if you were going to use them at all.


And then it will have less dps than a flight of regular drones. What's the point?


It will have less DPS on EFT. It will finish missions faster is the point.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2013-05-15 06:32:55 UTC
Just get effin Golem!

4 launchers, 1000+ dps, TP bonus.. etc. No problems with defenders eating your cruises all the time.
Group of 4 cruises rarely lure out defender from NPC, once in a month?

+you waste half of money killing stuff

with todays CNR, every other volley was hit by defender and now with +1 launcher it will be even worse.


damsel in distress battleship NPC-s, golem oneshots cruiser/bc doupt if cnr can do it.

golem odyssey 2 volleys
golem today 3 volleys
cnr today 3-4
cnr odyssey still 3... +waste double amount of ammo +pesky defenders