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Navy Raven: The Return of the King

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1 - 2013-05-14 12:48:43 UTC
No, this is not a new lord of the rings movie, it's a real (well EVE-real) thing lol.

From the features and ideas forum:
CCP Rise wrote:

RAVEN NAVY ISSUE
The CNR will be Caldari’s attack battleship, like the new tech 1 Raven. I wanted the Navy Raven to get something new, and the new Navy Drake pointed in a pretty good direction. We are giving the CNR an 8th launcher to make up for the loss of the rate of fire bonus, and replacing rate of fire with a bonus to explosion radius. Along with the incoming buff to cruise missiles, this ship is going to be an animal.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 8H, 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 8 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 12000 PWG(+1075), 780 CPU(+45)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10500(-750) / 8000(-1961) / 9500(-461)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5900(+587.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 123(+29) / .12(-.008) / 97300000(-2000000) / 16.19s(-1.43s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 105(-1.25) / 7
Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric(+.5)
Signature radius: 410(-50)
Y

Yep, she's BACK lol.
stoicfaux
#2 - 2013-05-14 13:14:35 UTC
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#3 - 2013-05-14 13:18:21 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.


So you apparently don't know about the 30% Cruise Missiles damage buff that also lands with Odyssey huh.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Seldom Seldin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-05-14 13:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Seldom Seldin
Wow, that explosion radius bonus is awesome, it should pop cruisers in one volley . Not to mention it'll be a cinch to toss a painter on with 7 mids. Ship should run missions almost twice as fast as it currently does.

If you weren't running a TP before, then the new changes effectively give something like 1.3/0.75 or 73% bonus.
stoicfaux
#5 - 2013-05-14 13:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
DeLindsay wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.


So you apparently don't know about the 30% Cruise Missiles damage buff that also lands with Odyssey huh.

I am aware of the cruiser launcher buff from hell as well.

I'll post some numbers in a bit. Or if you want to punch numbers yourself: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread


edit: and don't forget that navy ships will get a full 400 calibration points for rigging as well.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-05-14 13:31:09 UTC
as far as missions go, the changes to the CNR hull should come out about neutral. the lower paper dps should be compensated for by the better damage application to cruisers.
the upside is that you can now skip the tedium of target painting and invest all mid slots into a (cheaper) tank.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Seldom Seldin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-05-14 13:36:10 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
as far as missions go, the changes to the CNR hull should come out about neutral. the lower paper dps should be compensated for by the better damage application to cruisers.
the upside is that you can now skip the tedium of target painting and invest all mid slots into a (cheaper) tank.


7 / 0.75 = 9.3
8 * 1.3 = 10.4

DPS on paper will be higher.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-05-14 13:38:22 UTC
i was explicitly talking about the changes to the hull, not the changes to CMs.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-05-14 13:47:01 UTC
If the CNR's getting another 50 points of calibration as well as the explosion radius buff, I'd assume you can rig it with a Bay Loading Accel or a Calefaction rig as well as two Rigors (or a Rigor and a Flare), rather than having to go Rigor x2/Flare x1 or Rigor x3. Not sure how the math would work out, but at Caldari BS IV, you've essentially got a free T2 Rigor with no stacking penalty...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
stoicfaux
#10 - 2013-05-14 13:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
edit2: Go here for PDF with updated numbers: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3026225#post3026225

edit: Updated Odyssey CNR time to kill stats due to rof error.

It's a mixed bag but it seems that the RoF bonus is still better than the Explosion Radius (Er) bonus. Basically with the RoF bonus you can fire 4 volleys to the Odyssey CNR's 3 volleys. OTOH, the Odyssey CNR will suffer a little less from NPC defenders.

RoF seems to be better for Battleships, Er is great for one shotting BCs and slow cruisers.

RoF:
* current: 6.74s
* current + cruise buffs: 6.41s
* Odyssey w Rof nerf: 8.54s

To kill a Pith Eliminator:
* current: 4.36 volleys, 33.7s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* cruise buffs only: 3.49 volleys, 25.6 s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* Odyssey: 3.05 volleys, 34.2 seconds. (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, 2xRigor2, Flare2)

Gist General:
* current: 3.31 volleys, 27.0s
* cruise buffs only: 2.65 volleys, 19.2s
* Odyssey: 2.32 volleys, 25.6

Gistatis Tribunus
* curent: 1.3 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 1.13 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 0.80 volleys, 8.5s

Pithatis Death Dealer
* current: 0.97 volleys, 6.7s
* cruise buffs only: 0.79 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.68 volleys, 8.5s

Pithum Annihilator
* current: 1.05 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 0.92 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.64 volleys, 8.5s

Mercenary Corporal
* current: 2.04 volleys, 20.2s
* cruise buffs only: 1.78 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 1.25 volleys, 17.1s

Arch Gistum Centurion
* current: 4.25 volleys, 33.7s
* cruise buffs only: 3.71 volleys, 25.6s
* Odyssey: 2.61 volleys, 25.6s

Angel Viper:
* current: 7.74 volleys, 53.9s
* cruise buffs only: 6.75 volleys, 44.8s
* Odyssey: 4.75 volleys, 42.7s


edit: CNR Odyssey uses 2xRigor2 and 1xFlare2

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-05-14 14:00:55 UTC
did you ever verify these numbers against real numbers? i.e. how reliable is the spreadsheet with regard to the number of volleys?

I should buy an Ishtar.
stoicfaux
#12 - 2013-05-14 14:08:09 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
did you ever verify these numbers against real numbers? i.e. how reliable is the spreadsheet with regard to the number of volleys?

Hang on. Found a problem with the Odyssey CNR's rof. It should be 8.54s, not 11.5s. Let me rework the results.


The new spreadsheet uses the formulas from my initial spreadsheet, which did match up. So I'm 95% certain the new spreadsheet is accurate. I'll try to fire up Eve and Sisi tonight to spot check the numbers.

Also, the spreadsheets do not include shield/repair boosting in the volleys to kill. And it assumes orbit velocity.




Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Seldom Seldin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-05-14 14:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Seldom Seldin
edit: see you spotted it before I finished the post


Daniel Plain wrote:
i was explicitly talking about the changes to the hull, not the changes to CMs.


Sorry about that; I have a bit of trouble separating variables Straight





One thing not discussed so far is missed volleys. Higher cycle time on the ship combined with higher missile speed means that the launchers will explode ships about 70% further out without micromanaging volleys. This should mean that we won't have to count volleys under 90km with high skills, or about 80km with L4 skills.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#14 - 2013-05-14 14:12:09 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
It's ugly, IMO. The Odyssey CNR's RoF will be 11.5 seconds versus the current 6.74s and the 6.41s with the cruise missile buff.

Battleships will take longer to kill. BCs will take longer to kill. Cruisers will take longer to kill.

RoF:
* current: 6.74s
* current + cruise buffs: 6.41s
* Odyssey w Rof nerf: 11.51s

To kill a Pith Eliminator:
* current: 4.36 volleys, 33.7s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* cruise buffs only: 3.49 volleys, 25.6 s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* Odyssey: 3.05 volleys, 46.1 seconds. (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, 2xRigor2, Flare2)

Gist General:
* current: 3.31 volleys, 27.0s
* cruise buffs only: 2.65 volleys, 19.2s
* Odyssey: 2.32 volleys, 34.5s

Gistatis Tribunus
* curent: 1.3 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 1.13 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 0.80 volleys, 11.5s

Pithatis Death Dealer
* current: 0.97 volleys, 6.7s
* cruise buffs only: 0.79 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.68 volleys, 11.5s

Pithum Annihilator
* current: 1.05 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 0.92 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.64 volleys, 11.5s

Mercenary Corporal
* current: 2.04 volleys, 20.2s
* cruise buffs only: 1.78 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 1.25 volleys, 23.0s

Arch Gistum Centurion
* current: 4.25 volleys, 33.7s
* cruise buffs only: 3.71 volleys, 25.6s
* Odyssey: 2.61 volleys, 34.5s

Angel Viper:
* current: 7.74 volleys, 53.9s
* cruise buffs only: 6.75 volleys, 44.8s
* Odyssey: 4.75 volleys, 57.6s


edit: CNR Odyssey uses 2xRigor2 and 1xFlare2


You gonna post this in the features and ideas forum thread? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235324
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#15 - 2013-05-14 14:14:11 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
did you ever verify these numbers against real numbers? i.e. how reliable is the spreadsheet with regard to the number of volleys?

Hang on. Found a problem with the Odyssey CNR's rof. It should be 8.54s, not 11.5s. Let me rework the results.


Was wondering about that, 11.51 seemed awefully high lol


The new spreadsheet uses the formulas from my initial spreadsheet, which did match up. So I'm 95% certain the new spreadsheet is accurate. I'll try to fire up Eve and Sisi tonight to spot check the numbers.

Also, the spreadsheets do not include shield/repair boosting in the volleys to kill. And it assumes orbit velocity.
[/quote]
You gonna post the new spread sheet?
stoicfaux
#16 - 2013-05-14 14:23:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

You gonna post the new spread sheet?

In a bit, I want to add in the new 400 rigging points and I need to set up the spreadsheet to print PDFs to file.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#17 - 2013-05-14 14:31:46 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You gonna post the new spread sheet?

In a bit, I want to add in the new 400 rigging points and I need to set up the spreadsheet to print PDFs to file.





Right on, that's good work already though.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#18 - 2013-05-14 14:40:38 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
edit: Updated Odyssey CNR time to kill stats due to rof error.

It's a mixed bag but it seems that the RoF bonus is still better than the Explosion Radius (Er) bonus. Basically with the RoF bonus you can fire 4 volleys to the Odyssey CNR's 3 volleys. OTOH, the Odyssey CNR will suffer a little less from NPC defenders.

RoF seems to be better for Battleships, Er is great for one shotting BCs and slow cruisers.

RoF:
* current: 6.74s
* current + cruise buffs: 6.41s
* Odyssey w Rof nerf: 8.54s

To kill a Pith Eliminator:
* current: 4.36 volleys, 33.7s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* cruise buffs only: 3.49 volleys, 25.6 s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* Odyssey: 3.05 volleys, 34.2 seconds. (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, 2xRigor2, Flare2)

Gist General:
* current: 3.31 volleys, 27.0s
* cruise buffs only: 2.65 volleys, 19.2s
* Odyssey: 2.32 volleys, 25.6

Gistatis Tribunus
* curent: 1.3 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 1.13 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 0.80 volleys, 8.5s

Pithatis Death Dealer
* current: 0.97 volleys, 6.7s
* cruise buffs only: 0.79 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.68 volleys, 8.5s

Pithum Annihilator
* current: 1.05 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 0.92 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.64 volleys, 8.5s

Mercenary Corporal
* current: 2.04 volleys, 20.2s
* cruise buffs only: 1.78 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 1.25 volleys, 17.1s

Arch Gistum Centurion
* current: 4.25 volleys, 33.7s
* cruise buffs only: 3.71 volleys, 25.6s
* Odyssey: 2.61 volleys, 25.6s

Angel Viper:
* current: 7.74 volleys, 53.9s
* cruise buffs only: 6.75 volleys, 44.8s
* Odyssey: 4.75 volleys, 42.7s


edit: CNR Odyssey uses 2xRigor2 and 1xFlare2


OK so from your provided numbers - I'll take your word for it that they're accurate as I'm at work and cannot check -

(1) Where ever you have put a decimal, this should really be rounded up to the next integer. You can't fire "2.61 volleys" to kill an Arch Gistum Centurion; you actually have to fire 3.00 volleys @ 8.54 seconds (25.62s) instead of 5 volleys @ 6.74 seconds (33.7). The new CNR will take 8.08 seconds less, which is more than a whole current cycle quicker.

(2) In virtually every example you list, the Odyssey CNR is at least one volley quicker, sometimes several quicker. ODyssey volleys take longer, but you need a 4 Odyssey (34.16s) vs 5 current volley (33.7s) situation for the lines to cross. The Pith Eliminator is an example here - but a simple +3% damage implant brings the Odyssey CNR to 3 volleys while leaving the current one at 5.

(3) Even with the fraction volleys counted, the Odyssey CNR is getting quicker kill times with almost every ship (except the Guristas BCs which just die).

The tl:dr is that for the great majority of missions, the Odyssey Cruise CNR will finish the mission significantly, perceptibly faster, and use less ammo to do it as a bonus. The fact that Odyssey CNRs will also move over 1/3 faster is icing on the cake.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#19 - 2013-05-14 14:51:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
edit: Updated Odyssey CNR time to kill stats due to rof error.

It's a mixed bag but it seems that the RoF bonus is still better than the Explosion Radius (Er) bonus. Basically with the RoF bonus you can fire 4 volleys to the Odyssey CNR's 3 volleys. OTOH, the Odyssey CNR will suffer a little less from NPC defenders.

RoF seems to be better for Battleships, Er is great for one shotting BCs and slow cruisers.

RoF:
* current: 6.74s
* current + cruise buffs: 6.41s
* Odyssey w Rof nerf: 8.54s

To kill a Pith Eliminator:
* current: 4.36 volleys, 33.7s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* cruise buffs only: 3.49 volleys, 25.6 s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* Odyssey: 3.05 volleys, 34.2 seconds. (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, 2xRigor2, Flare2)

Gist General:
* current: 3.31 volleys, 27.0s
* cruise buffs only: 2.65 volleys, 19.2s
* Odyssey: 2.32 volleys, 25.6

Gistatis Tribunus
* curent: 1.3 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 1.13 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 0.80 volleys, 8.5s

Pithatis Death Dealer
* current: 0.97 volleys, 6.7s
* cruise buffs only: 0.79 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.68 volleys, 8.5s

Pithum Annihilator
* current: 1.05 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 0.92 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.64 volleys, 8.5s

Mercenary Corporal
* current: 2.04 volleys, 20.2s
* cruise buffs only: 1.78 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 1.25 volleys, 17.1s

Arch Gistum Centurion
* current: 4.25 volleys, 33.7s
* cruise buffs only: 3.71 volleys, 25.6s
* Odyssey: 2.61 volleys, 25.6s

Angel Viper:
* current: 7.74 volleys, 53.9s
* cruise buffs only: 6.75 volleys, 44.8s
* Odyssey: 4.75 volleys, 42.7s


edit: CNR Odyssey uses 2xRigor2 and 1xFlare2


OK so from your provided numbers - I'll take your word for it that they're accurate as I'm at work and cannot check -

(1) Where ever you have put a decimal, this should really be rounded up to the next integer. You can't fire "2.61 volleys" to kill an Arch Gistum Centurion; you actually have to fire 3.00 volleys @ 8.54 seconds (25.62s) instead of 5 volleys @ 6.74 seconds (33.7). The new CNR will take 8.08 seconds less, which is more than a whole current cycle quicker.

(2) In virtually every example you list, the Odyssey CNR is at least one volley quicker, sometimes several quicker. ODyssey volleys take longer, but you need a 4 Odyssey (34.16s) vs 5 current volley (33.7s) situation for the lines to cross. The Pith Eliminator is an example here - but a simple +3% damage implant brings the Odyssey CNR to 3 volleys while leaving the current one at 5.

(3) Even with the fraction volleys counted, the Odyssey CNR is getting quicker kill times with almost every ship (except the Guristas BCs which just die).

The tl:dr is that for the great majority of missions, the Odyssey Cruise CNR will finish the mission significantly, perceptibly faster, and use less ammo to do it as a bonus. The fact that Odyssey CNRs will also move over 1/3 faster is icing on the cake.


So bottom line is faster mission completion times + less ammo use (ie less overhead). Yep, that to me is a good trade off for one tractor beam :)
Ifly Uwalk
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-05-14 15:02:19 UTC
i'm gonna miss my high-slot drone range thingamajig! Sad
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