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Dust 1/10th of eve?

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#41 - 2013-05-14 09:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
floating in space wrote:
Tippia wrote:
About the same, just like in EVE (and PS/PS2).


My point was an FPS is different than EVE, also PS1's cert system isn't really comparable.

As in, you can't apply a long-term growth model to an FPS, PS2 doesn't have a long term growth model (especially not compared to DUST's start with 2000 work your way up).

This.

Also, Dust, like most other FPSMMOs, is missing that pve element that is so integral to MMO progression and players' attachment to their games. One of the biggest draws the MMO genre is being rich/having a rare mount/my bow shoots witches etc that you can lord over fellow players. That's simply not the case with FPS games, which is why it's so easy to move away from them. I played PS2 for a few months and was on the first page of Jaeger/Waterson 99% of the time, but the second I started getting burned out it was "okay, time to go do something else now." Having all those guns unlocked and that fancy General title did nothing to keep me playing when I simply didn't want to. But in EVE, when you do something else for a while it's still "oh **** better keep my sub going to I get them them SPs" unless you ragequit after getting ganked or something.

And I guess in this aspect Dust is slightly different from the rest, but is it enough to actually make it grow? FPS players are like cats in the sense that it's impossible to hold their attention for more than thirty seconds; they'll just move on to something else. I know, because I'm one of them, despite being patient enough for decade-long commitments to non-fps games.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#42 - 2013-05-14 09:31:20 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I don't know man, Planetside's pretty old. And like I said, we don't know what goes on behind closed scenes in the corporate world, but one of the things that stuck in business school was how everyone generally agreed that the moves happen before the public knows about them. It happens in-game too. Bought any ice within the past few years?

If you don't know, look it up.

Dust was teased in 2009; demoed on a xbox devkit in early 2011 and revealed as console-only at the same time; declined by Microsoft later in the year and turned PS3-only (which is not the asme as PS3-exclusive). Claiming that Sony somehow made it console exclusive before it even became PS3-only is rather silly.

Neither of us owns enough stock in either company to make any of our claims with a moderate degree of objectivity. You can call it snake oil, but to me, taking three years off each date would roughly approximate when the decisions were actually made. I doubt Microsoft turned anyone down, because CCP went into the bid process already knowing the outcome since you don't need to be a Wall Street insider to know about Microsoft's third party content development protocols.

Maybe in a year or two we can ask Daniel Loeb what really happened?


It was stated by CCP (I think in one of the dust pannels) that Microsoft declined Dust due to the intent to connect with PC's.
It was stated that Microsoft's Policy regarding XBOX LIVE is that it not connect to the same network as PC Games.

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#43 - 2013-05-14 09:37:54 UTC
I could've sworn it had something to do with not being allowed to distribute free content using their network but then again it could just be the limited information a pleb like myself has access to.

Either way, CCP knew what the results would be before they even tried since I really doubt it was the first time anyone approached Microsoft with a similar idea. At least this way they can blame someone else when fanboys of brand x start asking why they're not getting something fanboys of brand y are.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2013-05-14 09:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
floating in space wrote:
My point was an FPS is different than EVE, also PS1's cert system isn't really comparable.
Sure they are. Both systems are designed around the concept that older ≠ better. Both use breadth and variety rather than depth and “power”. That's the fun thing: you're confusing EVE with other MMOs — your logic about how newbies might feel would be correct if either EVE or Dust work like ye olde D&D-foundation class/level system. Neither do, which is why there's no reason (other than misconceptions) for the game to be less inviting to new players as the older players keep accumulating SP.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Neither of us owns enough stock in either company to make any of our claims with a moderate degree of objectivity.
You don't have to in order to count years. Actually, I misremembered which fanfest was which. The tease was 2008, and the demo was 2009 (again: on a 360 devkit, along with the “no PC” revelation)… PS3 not-actual-exclusivity happened in 2011. Check the CCP keynotes (and panels) from the respective years to see what they were doing back then.

Objectively, Sony did not make it not happen on PCs, unless you believe that Sony is heavily into making game for XBox. If anything, it was the other way around: the fact that it wasn't on PCs helped Sony get behind the project even more.
floating in space
#45 - 2013-05-14 09:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: floating in space
Tippia wrote:
Sure they are. Both systems are designed around the concept that older ≠ better. Both use breadth and variety rather than depth and “power”. That's the fun thing: you're confusing EVE with other MMOs — your logic about how newbies might feel would be correct if either EVE or Dust work like ye olde D&D-foundation class/level system. Neither do, which is why there's no reason (other than misconceptions) for the game to be less inviting to new players as the older players keep accumulating SP.


Misconceptions, are actual things and have to be accounted for.

Secondly, EVE for a very long time had a monopoly on the space genre as far as I'm aware which along with other things helped to foster growth. The FPS genre is so saturated that this doesn't apply. Games like CoD are re-released for a reason, one of which being players' BR (or whatever it's called BR might be Battlefield) is reset. Also, the playerbase generally decreases as time goes on in these games until a new one comes out. This is all the opposite of DUST (which appears to have mainly EVE players playing it).

edit: Also, I read someone that the explicit strategy set forth for PS2 was to settle into a niche game, which is again the opposite of DUST
NameWasTakenAlready
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-05-14 09:53:26 UTC
You know the story of how new eden was first colonized? Unable to survive on their own until they were developed to the point of being self sufficient? Nurtured by the home worlds which sustain them?

That's dust right now. With eve here to sustain it, it cannot die. Even if they screw it up royally, perceptions change. For all the negative perception mainstream gamers have towards eve, it is growing, because a lot of the issues young eve had were fixed. Dust will grow. Slowly and painfully, it will grow. Until it can sustain itself. And then it will repay eve through its symbiotic relationship.
floating in space
#47 - 2013-05-14 09:55:53 UTC
NameWasTakenAlready wrote:
And then it will repay eve through its symbiotic relationship.


Or it remains a parasite, which is possible.

I haven't tried to make any predictions or trash DUST but I really think the whole thing has a lot of serious issues.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-05-14 10:02:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I think a lot of you optimists overlook the fact that Sony didn't let CCP make a PC version due to the Planetside IP, and CCP is locked into a contract with a company that can eat them because of cashbucks.
…which makes a lot of sense seeing as how the decision not to make a PC version was made long before it Sony had any say in the matter and since they don't have any say in the matter after the fact either. Wait what?

Roll

because every news and agreements see the public immediately and not after they made some effect. And every political leader says what he has in his mind.... Roll

welcome to the real world

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-05-14 10:06:37 UTC
How do you reach EVE's amount of accounts in a game where you can't multibox?..

Sorry, had to do it.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#50 - 2013-05-14 10:07:52 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
How do you reach EVE's amount of accounts in a game where you can't multibox?..

Sorry, had to do it.

/me snaps fingers and shakes head

Aw nuh he didunh!

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2013-05-14 10:11:12 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
because every news and agreements see the public immediately and not after they made some effect.
Good thing, then, that it wasn't any kind of news or agreement and that it's a development that stretches over 4–5 years doesn't particularly qualify as “immediate”.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#52 - 2013-05-14 10:14:18 UTC
Come on Tippia, you can do better than "it's in the bible." Did the lack of bears whining about evil gankers make you lose your edge? I've been gone for a while so I don't really know what's going on with you people anymore.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-05-14 10:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Come on Tippia, you can do better than "it's in the bible." Did the lack of bears whining about evil gankers make you lose your edge? I've been gone for a while so I don't really know what's going on with you people anymore.

While we're at it, nice to see you back.

Erm, off-topic? What's off-topic?

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#54 - 2013-05-14 11:06:53 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Come on Tippia, you can do better than "it's in the bible." Did the lack of bears whining about evil gankers make you lose your edge? I've been gone for a while so I don't really know what's going on with you people anymore.

While we're at it, nice to see you back.

Erm, off-topic? What's off-topic?

I think it's a clothing store for sad forum posters.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#55 - 2013-05-14 11:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Radius Prime
Malcanis wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
FPSMMOs generally don't "grow" after release...


Neither do MMOs in general.

Generally in general, yes. The thing about EVE is that it started really small. It could either fail immediately, or grow; it grew. Aside from WoW, the western MMO market pales in comparison to its Asian counterpart. Ever play Maple Story? That thing couldn't have had more than like two and a half players in the beginning. Then look what happened. Over-hyped games by major studios, on the other hand, have nowhere to go but down. There are exceptions, as with everything, but we can probably agree that small projects are likely to grow and large ones to shrink.

I mean, I really appreciate all of this pro-CCP sentiment as if the company is some kind of infallible being that does no wrong, but things can literally change within the course of a day. One minute we're buying PLEXes, the next CCP announces "accounting malpractice" and loses sixty percent of its books. Or maybe it will buy out SOE in 2014 instead. It's pretty weird how money works.

The best that can happen is that I'm flat-out wrong in my personal Dust prediction and then you can make fun of me while I cover my face with one of those black bars you get in Japanese pornos, and the worst thing that can happen is that you're gonna have to join my WoW guild.


The point is that CCP are also structuring Dust rather differently to other FPSMMOs.

1) It's free
2) So are the expansions
3) They've committed to long term support

These are all "long term growth" enablers. I'm not saying that it's a lock, I'm just saying that the traditional barriers to long term growth are not present. If the market is ready for a long term accretive growth model FPSMMO, DUST is in place to to reap the rewards. If not, then it won't. But right know we just don't know, because it's never been seriously tried before.

I definitely don't believe CCP "can do no wrong" - in fact the DUST team are rediscovering quite a few learnings that the EVE team have slowly and painfully acquired over the last 5 years - but I do give them full marks for actually trying to do something new and different in their game model, and giving Joe Console credit for not just wanting to dowload Call Of Duty: Black Ops: Space Marines vs Toy Story: Wallet **** Edition


Joe console would rather pay 60 bucks to play the same COD with different pixels then to play a third rate shooter. He has been doing it since COD originally got released on PS3 years ago. What makes you think that will change? At least COD has a pc version... Can't tell its producers they forgot their roots...

Good to know Dust will be CCP's moneysink for a long time to come. We should just give up on expecting any real additions to EVE in that time as well then right? What they been doing since Incarna are only cosmetic changes to the game. Little to no real content has been added. I am sure the spectacular ship rebalancing Fozzy has been doing will keep us all warm and raving for years then.

They keep saying they have these grand schemes for EVE to be around, thriving and bigger 20 years from now. Are we being lied to? Have we become a milking cow for the production of new games while EVE receives little or no investment from its subs?

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Winters Chill
Unitas Incorporated
#56 - 2013-05-14 11:11:39 UTC
Ckra Trald wrote:

I know EvE Online started small, but all MMOs start small. Dust is a MMOFPS thing. Without the EvE link (which is keeping it alive, the eve players) it would be another FPS. The console market doesn't care about community or earning isk. They want fast mindless games.


Ironically this is exactly why Dust514 is struggling.

Dust promised to be the "thinking man shooter" and yet is pandering to the "fast mindless games" audience.

A lot of stuff they should have released they havn't, because they are getting caught (i think anyway) in the endless development iteration that keeps features out of the hands of the people who what it most. The players.

Right now the eve-dust link is the only thing special about dust.

They basically removed industry as a concept from dust players.
They havn't implimented any type of economy.
Location awareness is non-existant (but improved slightly recently).
PVE which was billed for launch has been held back for unnamed reasons.
There is no immersion.

All the above are addiative features that would all pull a certain type of player to dust, more people playing dust for any reason is good. Instead CCP is focusing on the "core shooter gameplay" which is lackluster and putting them in competition with other games that do the shooter bit much better. They may see an increase when PlConq is in full swing. Time will tell.

Aside from the weapon choices and the upgrade customisation, the game is essentially halo with less maps.

All my own opinion of course.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#57 - 2013-05-14 11:16:52 UTC
Setaceous wrote:
Frake Lomes wrote:
Must have doom and gloom...it's fun to read

Indeed. It also goes a long way to prove my theory that if a person has no real major problems in their life, they turn minor problems into major ones to compensate.


Generalizations like that only make people look stupid. Yes idd, all blondes are dumb.. Throw that theory out.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-05-14 11:36:29 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
...it could just be the limited information a pleb like myself has access to...

...CCP knew what the results would be before they even tried since I really doubt it was the first time anyone approached Microsoft with a similar idea.


It is common knowledge, and fairly simple information to find, that Microsoft was not keen on allowing DUST to operate on or link to an external server, that being Tranquility, just as it is fairly common knowledge that EA virtually had to blackmail Microsoft to get their own servers for Xbox 360 releases. I'm not sure what actually transpired back in the day, but I know that CCP did indeed go first to the Xbox because it was the cheaper, more popular platform, and less technical to develop on. But when you make a claim like "CCP knew" and acknowledge in the same spiel that you only have limited information, it's almost as if you're not even listening to yourself.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-05-14 11:41:32 UTC
Winters Chill wrote:
Aside from the weapon choices and the upgrade customisation, the game is essentially halo with less maps.

All my own opinion of course.


I agree with the conclusion, but not for all the same reasons and not without an addendum: DUST 514 is indeed somewhat limited in its content and comparable to a "Halo with fewer maps" as of the last time I played it today, before launch, but it has the potential to be much, much more than just another Halo, and it's the players that recognise this potential I think that will enjoy it the most, even now with its limited appeal.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#60 - 2013-05-14 11:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Radius Prime
Chribba wrote:
Speaking as a non-FPS person here (my encounters in the FPS area was some minor Blood and Quake3 Arena 10 years ago). Since then I've not played any FPS, never tried CS, CoD, MW, BF or similar.


You are a non-FPS person?!? Would have never guessed :).

Always thought you had an alter ego secretly aimhacking in every shooter, cheating people out of money & accounts. Turning 12 year olds to tears with a regularity that would surprise even the best priest.


Chribba wrote:
They do listen to the players, just as they do and did in EVE, I've seen many times in EVE were it feels like they don't listen and other times when they are sitting in your lap listening. Plus the fact that we've only been in beta until today makes the call of death even harder.


They need players to listen to first. Also 90% of those playing right now are EVE-players. If they listen to them Dusties will soon board spaceships and gank EVE players. Even if they drag in some of the FPS crowd... How do you improve your game with comments like "Your game sucks and so does your mommy""Bunch of pussynerds, COD is much more 1337"?
And luckily I can't smack talk like 13 year olds on a sleepover game night.... Maybe they should add some p0rn (<-- Seriously, that is censored?) into the game... Am sure it would spread like wildfire and they'll add a ton of players before the law suit.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.