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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1261 - 2013-05-23 10:49:19 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Deerin wrote:
...

L4 ship built to do the max possible dps? Impossible...Roll

3 slot tank is perfectly viable on l4 ship, especially if pilot has 1k+ dps at his disposal. Prop mod is necessary only in few specific missions, especially if your damage projection goes easily to 80km. It doesnt require crystals at all and good skills are must for any other faction/pirate bs if pilot wants to fly it efficiently. I agree acs are inflating dps number, but they might be useful for angel rats coming close to you or for missions like vengeance, damsel, ritualist raids etc..
Every l4 mission runner must learn mission agro, spawn points and every l4 mission runner in missile ship must learn to count volleys and prevent overkill damage if he wants to do missions efficiently - and it has nothing to do with specific ship.


Like you said for L4's 3 slot tank is only enough if you have good skills and extensive knowledge of missions and rats, which is not mandatory to play the game. Not all players are playing it that way you know. In fact those who can get away with 3 slot tanks are quite a minority. (I know I can't.)

New versions of Domi, Phoon and Armageddon have full drone bays and can be effectively used as split weapon ships. You can put 3 slot shield tank on any of them and wonder at the obnoxious DPS amount as you'll be using low slots for increasing damage of both weapon systems. Even new Arma will be "Outperforming" your ships according to this logic (Which is totally wrong).

The reality, however, is people are actually using their med slots for tank. 5 Slots...6 Slots even. I'm not strictly talkinkg about L4's....there are many PvE and PvP scenarios where you'll need to squeeze every bit of tank from your slots....these scenarios are not rare either.

Lugalzagezi666 wrote:

And dont call other people trolls when you are the troll here - it is obvious that you support the idea of winmatar master race getting ships that benefit from piloting skills and carebear race getting "easymode" noobships.

Winmatar is so 2011. It is fading away with tiercide. You are failing at noticing it.

Lugalzagezi666 wrote:

And the best joke - fleetpest needs damage buff to compete with amarr battleship that is not even fitting its racial weapon system. I guess it has nothing to do it with said weapon system.Roll


Is it wrong though? Artybaddon has better alpha, similar EHP and better resist profile. Do you really think alphabaddons will cease to exist when/if beams are fixed?

Morrigan LeSante wrote:

I posted a cheapish PvE fit (only cost was faction BCUs but as I say, to make a CNR work right, you need them there too - so its parity), nothing padding the DPS artificially either, empty highs. Prop mods are NOT needed for most BS PvE fits.


Very nice fit. Better than AC bumped fits. Though it again relies on 3 slot tanking. It also looks like it has some cap issues. I totally agree on CPU and I believe it needs to be increased by a great amount. I love my AB on my missioning BS. But if I were to drop one module from meds to fit something, that would be it.

About current Fphoon: If you fit it like your fit(4x cnbcs 4xddas, cruises only, bouncers) it will "outdps" your current CNR....yet nobody flies it for this purpose for a good reason.

TL;DR:Split weapon ships, when used with paper tanks.DO achieve great paper DPS values, but are impractical in reality. Balancing IS and SHOULD BE taking this into account.
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#1262 - 2013-05-23 10:50:36 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I wouldn't trade The New CNR's bonuses for a damage bonus


But the other 99.9% of the CNR users - will trade.


Because they can't do the math to see that the new bonus is better :3


So my suggestion - exchange bonuses between CNR and TFI :).
"Hardmode" minmatar pilots will get that great signature/speed bonus. They can do math and understand that this bonuses are way better – so all of them will be happy.
And noobish caldary pilots – will get +37.5% damage. Anyway they can't do proper math and don't understand how crappy this bonus is.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1263 - 2013-05-23 10:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
@Deerin

It is a bit iffy on cap - it relies on DPS for tank. Again this is based on my CNR - it runs with an ASB and save for worlds collide it basically doesn't even need to pulse it. I had experimented a while back about going absolutely minimal tank to get two painters on it and it works obscenely well. The phoon I have planned has so much more DPS I honestly don't envision cap/tank being a material issue unless I'm a bit silly (it happens more than I care to admit).

I could be wrong, but certainly I'm going to give it a spin.


The current phoon cant get two painters/painter|omni combo and keep a sane tank - the two painters are really needed. Plus in all honesty, I was quite happy with my current CNR so didnt go looking to trade out. Also what really tips it in odessy is the cruise buff - without that it'd be a very different proposition. The gap today isn't as wide as it will be tomorrow, basically. The CNR lost its RoF bonus, the phoon gained a HIGHER hull bonus on top of the cruise changes - it puts clear daylight between them now.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1264 - 2013-05-23 11:01:57 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I wouldn't trade The New CNR's bonuses for a damage bonus


But the other 99.9% of the CNR users - will trade.


Because they can't do the math to see that the new bonus is better :3


So my suggestion - exchange bonuses between CNR and TFI :).
"Hardmode" minmatar pilots will get that great signature/speed bonus. They can do math and understand that this bonuses are way better – so all of them will be happy.
And noobish caldary pilots – will get +37.5% damage. Anyway they can't do proper math and don't understand how crappy this bonus is.



You know the difference between 8 non dmg bonused launchers and 6 37.5% launchers is 3% right? Would you really want to trade 3% damage difference for 25% reduction in missile signature? The real complaint about Fphoon is combining this with huge dronebay and additional perks like high speed and low signature.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1265 - 2013-05-23 12:32:24 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
If you want to know someones opinion, the best way is to ask.

That is true Bi-Mi, but there is like 10 pages just in this thread pointing to how op 37.5% damage bonus is and how underwhelming explosion radius and missile speed bonuses are. And all we get in response is : working as intended, cnr is easymode for noobs without piloting skill and tfi is hardmode for 1337s.

Jenn aSide wrote:
hopefully after I sell my stack o floons I bought with my horded FW LP

So you are spamming that bullshit everywhere just to sell a bunch of your tfis? Roll


Nope, I posting because the CNR is fine as is. I mean damn, i fly the ting on SiSi and love it, but if all I had to go on was this thread I'd think it was utter crap. I even did speed tests (along with the tank tests, sorry to the poor GM i kept badgering for sites :) ) and beat ALL of my tranquility Anom and mission speeds, and by margins I didn't expect (ie, it wasn't all just the cruise missile buff, the damage application from the upgraded flare rig and radius bonus could be seen, flet and measured). It's a lot better than the tranq cnr though the lack of a drone link aug or ATS hurts a tiny bit.

The SNI was an improvement too, but not that much. The Floon is a beast that may need the nerf bat, but hell, it was already a beast.

I'll say again, I just think some people can't let go of the old ways, and refuse to consider the new CNR as a whole ship and not just it's DPS and slot lay out. I'm sure they will be a significant shock among some CNR pilots on tranq after June 4, but as usual , most will adapt and come to see the benefits the change offers. A few reactionaries will dig in their heels and feel butt hurt,.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1266 - 2013-05-23 12:35:01 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I wouldn't trade The New CNR's bonuses for a damage bonus


But the other 99.9% of the CNR users - will trade.


Because they can't do the math to see that the new bonus is better :3


So my suggestion - exchange bonuses between CNR and TFI :).
"Hardmode" minmatar pilots will get that great signature/speed bonus. They can do math and understand that this bonuses are way better – so all of them will be happy.
And noobish caldary pilots – will get +37.5% damage. Anyway they can't do proper math and don't understand how crappy this bonus is.



You know the difference between 8 non dmg bonused launchers and 6 37.5% launchers is 3% right? Would you really want to trade 3% damage difference for 25% reduction in missile signature? The real complaint about Fphoon is combining this with huge dronebay and additional perks like high speed and low signature.


Well put. As i said, I wouldn't make that trade.
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#1267 - 2013-05-23 12:46:27 UTC
All ships are equal but some are more equal than others. I for once give little damn about navy bships. Still the navy domi gives me back my old domi so I'm happy about it. And since I have near perfect skills for the phoon I can't be mad that it's one of the better navy ships out there. Will it see more use than my pirate ships, I doubt it but it's still a nice toy.

All in all I'm more mad about some of the changes made to ordinary bships. Nerfs + price increases are hard to swallow.
Lugalzagezi666
#1268 - 2013-05-23 12:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugalzagezi666
Deerin wrote:
...

One has to love that crazy minmatar fanboy logic :
Fact :
Even today navy raven loses to fleet typhoon in dps output, while as proved by many posters, it has more than enough damage projection (yup, without that bonus calibration for t2 flare, without additional tp and without precision bonus).
Conclusion :
This implies that fleet typhoon deserves to get higher damage bonus, more launchers and additional mid for damage projection and cnr justly loses its dps bonus, and gets useless precision bonus, so it doesnt became "too good" with new cruise missile changes.
Oh and not to forget tfis cpu should be increased. And battleships fitting artillery despite bonuses for racial weapons is nothing wrong and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with artillery being op.

Tldr :
Odyssey fleet typhoon is perfectly capable of massively outdamaging any other missile battleship while having absolutely sufficient tank and more than enough damage projection. Thats why tfi completely outclasses them which SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT when balancing ship.
Cnr will be outclassed by tfi, golem and in pve pretty much similar to raven, sni or phoon, in pvp total crap - basically pointless ship without a role (except being easymode noobship).

And balancing ships based on piloting skill and ingame skillpoints is ********. Only thing more ******** is designing ships that dont benefit from piloting skills of the player and making ships benefiting from piloting skills and experience available to only one race.

Bereza Mia wrote:

So my suggestion - exchange bonuses between CNR and TFI :).
"Hardmode" minmatar pilots will get that great signature/speed bonus. They can do math and understand that this bonuses are way better – so all of them will be happy.
And noobish caldary pilots – will get +37.5% damage. Anyway they can't do proper math and don't understand how crappy this bonus is.

Please, do this.
LolLol
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1269 - 2013-05-23 13:09:31 UTC
Deerin wrote:

Like you said for L4's 3 slot tank is only enough if you have good skills and extensive knowledge of missions and rats, which is not mandatory to play the game. Not all players are playing it that way you know. In fact those who can get away with 3 slot tanks are quite a minority. (I know I can't.)

I have yet to find a L4 mission runner who doesn't know about Eve-Survival site and i tend to team up with lot of other players. It is perfectly reasonable to start with brick tanked ships but as you get more talented, skills and isk to fit it you tend to start optimizing your mission ship. And what is the best way to achieve shorter mission times? Yup, dps.

Deerin wrote:

New versions of Domi, Phoon and Armageddon have full drone bays and can be effectively used as split weapon ships. You can put 3 slot shield tank on any of them and wonder at the obnoxious DPS amount as you'll be using low slots for increasing damage of both weapon systems. Even new Arma will be "Outperforming" your ships according to this logic (Which is totally wrong).

Yes, you can fit them to pump out some serious dps too, but not at the ranges where TFI is doing it.

Deerin wrote:

The reality, however, is people are actually using their med slots for tank. 5 Slots...6 Slots even. I'm not strictly talkinkg about L4's....there are many PvE and PvP scenarios where you'll need to squeeze every bit of tank from your slots....these scenarios are not rare either.

You can tune down the tank on the TFI and still maintain very decent dps, if that is not enough then you should be looking at SNI for example.

Deerin wrote:

About current Fphoon: If you fit it like your fit(4x cnbcs 4xddas, cruises only, bouncers) it will "outdps" your current CNR....yet nobody flies it for this purpose for a good reason.

With current Fphoon you would get ~1000 dps at 25km, and 831 dps at 80km versus 945 dps on the CNR (786 with cruise only). However, with the proposed TFI you could achieve 1400dps at 80km with cruises and bouncers only versus 935 on CNR.

Deerin wrote:

TL;DR:Split weapon ships, when used with paper tanks.DO achieve great paper DPS values, but are impractical in reality. Balancing IS and SHOULD BE taking this into account.

And also nobody forces to go with the max dps paper fit, there is a LOT of fitting options and flexibility with the ship, i have flown it on SiSi and with cruise/drone setup it just works Big smile
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1270 - 2013-05-23 13:12:19 UTC
To be fair, if the CPU on the CNR gets fixed, it's far from a bad boat - it's not really the problem child - the phoon is.
Lugalzagezi666
#1271 - 2013-05-23 13:22:19 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
To be fair, if the CPU on the CNR gets fixed, it's far from a bad boat - it's not really the problem child - the phoon is.


Even if the cpu on cnr gets fixed it is still plain worse ship than golem that have 0 cpu issues to start with...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1272 - 2013-05-23 13:23:11 UTC
yes, but thats a T2...
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1273 - 2013-05-23 13:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
yes, but thats a T2...


I been saying that forever, but no a navy ship is supposed to be superior or at least on par with a Tech 2 ship of the same hull because....well, just because lol (according to them).
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1274 - 2013-05-23 13:38:16 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Deerin wrote:
...

One has to love that crazy minmatar fanboy logic :
Fact :
Even today navy raven loses to fleet typhoon in dps output, while as proved by many posters, it has more than enough damage projection (yup, without that bonus calibration for t2 flare, without additional tp and without precision bonus).
Conclusion :
This implies that fleet typhoon deserves to get higher damage bonus, more launchers and additional mid for damage projection and cnr justly loses its dps bonus, and gets useless precision bonus, so it doesnt became "too good" with new cruise missile changes.
Oh and not to forget tfis cpu should be increased. And battleships fitting artillery despite bonuses for racial weapons is nothing wrong and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with artillery being op.

Tldr :
Odyssey fleet typhoon is perfectly capable of massively outdamaging any other missile battleship while having absolutely sufficient tank and more than enough damage projection. Thats why tfi completely outclasses them which SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT when balancing ship.
Cnr will be outclassed by tfi, golem and in pve pretty much similar to raven, sni or phoon, in pvp total crap - basically pointless ship without a role (except being easymode noobship).

And balancing ships based on piloting skill and ingame skillpoints is ********. Only thing more ******** is designing ships that dont benefit from piloting skills of the player and making ships benefiting from piloting skills and experience available to only one race.


You completely missed the point.

When using your "paper tank full dps" logic, todays FPhoon outdps's todays CNR. The fact is it doesn't really work that well in the game. If it were, it would be the ship everyone flies.

Claiming that a 3 slot shield tank is "sufficent" only shows that you are leet and have "ingame skillpoints" and "piloting skill" to pull that off....and with your own words.

Quote:

And balancing ships based on piloting skill and ingame skillpoints is ********


Please fit a decent tank that normal players like us can use and THEN compare both ships.

For the record (again) I would like phoon to stay 8 4 8 5/5 with new bonuses.
Lugalzagezi666
#1275 - 2013-05-23 13:46:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
yes, but thats a T2...


I been saying that forever, but no a navy ship is supposed to be superior or at least on par with a Tech 2 ship of the same hull because....well, just because lol.


Except you are wrong. T2 ship should be SPECIALIZED. It shouldnt outclass pirate/faction in every way and often it is on par with t1 - except its specialization.

Thats why blackops are not superior to t1 battleships, but they provide bridging.
Thats why inties provide long points and mwd sig bonus, but they often die to t1 frigs (not even talking about faction).
Thats why hacs often die to t1 cruisers in brawl, because they are specialized in sniping or kiting.
Thats why hictors do low damage, but they have massive tanks and infinipoints/bubbles.
And so on...

And golem is specialized - it provides 3 utility highs, tractor beams reaching to 48k and allows player to loot and salvage the field while killing stuff. Only that after odyssey it will also provide same damage, better tank and even more utility.

Today cnr cannot loot and salvage, but can easily compete and overcome golem in killing speed. After expansion it will be just "easymode" crap.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1276 - 2013-05-23 14:10:12 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I wouldn't trade The New CNR's bonuses for a damage bonus


But the other 99.9% of the CNR users - will trade.


Because they can't do the math to see that the new bonus is better :3


So my suggestion - exchange bonuses between CNR and TFI :).
"Hardmode" minmatar pilots will get that great signature/speed bonus. They can do math and understand that this bonuses are way better – so all of them will be happy.
And noobish caldary pilots – will get +37.5% damage. Anyway they can't do proper math and don't understand how crappy this bonus is.



You know the difference between 8 non dmg bonused launchers and 6 37.5% launchers is 3% right? Would you really want to trade 3% damage difference for 25% reduction in missile signature? The real complaint about Fphoon is combining this with huge dronebay and additional perks like high speed and low signature.

It is only 3% but still better, heck people buy expensive implants to get few percent more and train T2 weapon skill to V to get that 2% more. But that would still result in expensive Raven, it would need that extra launcher. The problem is not the launcher but the buffed cruise missiles which are over the top. Tune them down a little and you also decrease the TFI's potential while still being on top of the CNR on overall dps, but not in the missile dps.

The old CNR was in very good role already being the highest dps missile boat while SNI was very tanky and TFI still could out dps CNR but not with missiles. Now when you think about the use for proposed CNR...

Currently
Want basic missile ship? Raven
Want missile ship to bother the frigs? Golem
Want tanky missile ship? Golem > SNI
Want missile ship with more dps? CNR
Want missile ship with utility? Golem > Raven, SNI, Golem, CNR

Odyssey
Want basic missile ship? Phoon > Raven
Want missile ship to bother the frigs? Golem > CNR > Phoon
Want tanky missile ship? Golem > SNI
Want missile ship with more dps? TFI
Want missile ship with utility? Golem > TFI > Raven, Phoon, SNI
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1277 - 2013-05-23 14:13:00 UTC
"Marauders" specialization is called "PVE" lol. A proper progression is Raven (adequate for PVE), Navy Raven (better for PVE) , Golem (Best at PVE). Not saying that these ships should only be useful for PVE (it's a pvp game), but the past muddled "oh the tech2 Gorelm is good for some things but the NAVY Raven beat it at other things was just seriously messed up.

If the question is pvp or something, there should be choices. But if the Question is "lvl 4 mission" or someother PVE and the choices are "CNR or Golem", imo Golem is supposed to win every time, because that's what Marauders are made for (tractors and salvagers are there to support the ships mission, they aren't in and of themselves the ships purpose any more than the tanking and ewar bonuses are). Ideally if the Question was "Golem or Rattlesnake" it should still be Golem (if by nothing more than a hair).

The old messed up way of muddled ship roles should go away, that's the entire purpose of tiercide to begin with. I'm glad to see CCP seeming to consider the proper place for different ship classes, it was kind of obscene to see the CNR be the equal of the Golem in anyway and you didn't see it as much with any other race.

I can't remember anyone ever asking me "hey, what do you think? Napoc or Paladin"? It was always clearly Paladin (or Nightmare). Now if CCP would just do something about the marauders native scan res and sig radius problems, that would be great.
stoicfaux
#1278 - 2013-05-23 14:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
If all a high-sec mission runner cares about is "easy mode" and doesn't care about sentry drones, then the SNI is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than the CNR.

SNI has the same applied missile firepower as a CNR.
SNI has one more mid, and one free high slot (tractor beam!)
SNI has a tank bonus, which means it has an "extra" mid.
SNI can fit a 4-5 slot tank, an AB, and 2-3 TPs. CNR can run a 4 slot tank, an AB and 2 TPs.
SNI has 112km targeting range (Furies have ~105km range) CNR has 93.75km targeting range.
SNI has a RoF bonus, so it generally kills faster than or same as the CNR.
SNI can fit a T2 XLSB, CNR needs to use a DG XLSB due to CPU and to match the SNI's tank.

DPS:
* SNI: 884 DPS
* CNR: 897 DPS.
The difference is due to reloading time. However, since the SNI has a RoF bonus, it generally kills as fast as, or faster than the CNR.

edit: Applied DPS: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNMXRCcUxwZzJBWk0/edit?usp=sharing

Tank: (versus 55% em 45% therm)
SNI: 658 tank for almost 12 minutes with AB running.
CNR: 455 tank for a about 4.5 minutes with AB running. (A little over 5m with AB off.)
The SNI can drop a hardener for another TP and still have a 468 tank.
The CNR can fit more cap boosters (665m3 cargo versus 550m3).


Thus, I heartily recommend the SNI over the CNR for the average, mundane, casual, non-FleetTyphoon high-sec mission runner.

tl;dr: Raven -> SNI -> Golem -> Fleet Typhoon


[Scorpion Navy Issue, Odyssey Relaxed]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
10MN Afterburner II
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#1279 - 2013-05-23 14:25:39 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

*snip*


Another one that has no idea that theoretical dps and the actual applied damage in game aren't the same. Especially with missiles.

My Condor costs less than that module!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1280 - 2013-05-23 14:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
stoicfaux wrote:
If all a high-sec mission runner cares about is "easy mode" and doesn't care about sentry drones, then the SNI is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than the CNR.

SNI has the same applied missile firepower as a CNR.
SNI has one more mid, and one free high slot (tractor beam!)
SNI has a tank bonus, which means it has an "extra" mid.
SNI can fit a 4-5 slot tank, an AB, and 2-3 TPs. CNR can run a 4 slot tank, an AB and 2 TPs.
SNI has 112km targeting range (Furies have ~105km range) CNR has 93.75km targeting range.
SNI has a RoF bonus, so it generally kills faster than or same as the CNR.
SNI can fit a T2 XLSB, CNR needs to use a DG XLSB due to CPU and to match the SNI's tank.

DPS:
* SNI: 884 DPS
* CNR: 897 DPS.
The difference is due to reloading time. However, since the SNI has a RoF bonus, it generally kills as fast as, or faster than the CNR.

Tank: (versus 55% em 45% therm)
SNI: 658 tank for almost 12 minutes with AB running.
CNR: 455 tank for a about 4.5 minutes with AB running. (A little over 5m with AB off.)
The SNI can drop a hardener for another TP and still have a 468 tank.
The CNR can fit more cap boosters (665m3 cargo versus 550m3).


Thus, I heartily recommend the SNI over the CNR for the average, mundane, casual, non-FleetTyphoon high-sec mission runner.

tl;dr: Raven -> SNI -> Golem -> Fleet Typhoon


[Scorpion Navy Issue, Odyssey Relaxed]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
10MN Afterburner II
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


[Raven Navy Issue, Odyssey]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


The Navy Scorp is good (both and and after june 4), but that's not what you said in your original analysis.

Quote:
Results Summary:
Teh TFI Basic (Light Blue) is just obnoxious against BS and BC sized targets at short range. Against cruisers it still cranks out the DPS but along an odd curve. (You'll probably want to switch to T1 missiles against cruisers.)
The TFI No Rigor (Red) can pump out high DPs against battleships at short range. Even against cruisers at short range it makes a very good showing, but suffers at long range from the lack of rigor/flare rigs.
The TFI Drone XLSB (Green), which traded TPs for Omnis, was lackluster against smaller ships, but did quite well against the battleship. The lack of TPs really hurts its long range missile DPS. Not a bad choice, but not a very good one either.
The CNR (Dark Blue) is very consistent, staying in the mid to upper range of the pack. It's much better at long ranges than the TFI.
The SNI (Purple) tended to perform at the middle to low end of the spectrum. Its 4 TPs didn't provide a signficant advantage.
The Golem (Yellow) dominated against cruiser sized targets at all ranges due to its TP bonus. Unfortuntely, the lack of raw DPS hurt it against the BC and BS targets.

The monstrous DPS of the TFI Basic just screams psychopathic rage of destruction against Angels, from cruisers to battleships, but only at realtively short range (<40km). Thus the answer to #1 is "Yes! Yes! Yes!." However, if you're a cautious prude, the CNR is an all around consistent performer, from short to long range and is a good choice.


So now a Navy Scorp with 2 TPs is a better choice than a CNR?