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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1001 - 2013-05-18 01:52:18 UTC
Altimo wrote:

1. That only applies to how you use the ship, that doesn't change the fact it has a superior tank.

No. If you don't need the boost bonus, the Mael has a poor tank, because it's buffer is poor.
Quote:

3. Rise said it was meant to be the "Fastest" of the combat battleships. But then when you armor tank it....

It's still pretty fast - for a battleship, even armour tanked.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1002 - 2013-05-18 01:52:38 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
I bought two Navy Scorpions. I can see them being the new, old Drake. A full passive Navy Scorp is going to be a tough nut to crack.

I'm not sure if the shield recharge time of the SNI will change but i fitted the new SNI in EFT and it's nowhere near Rattlesnake.

With 4 BCU's fitted on each here are the Uniform damage defence numbers:

SNI - 415
Drake - 368
Rattle - 680


4 BCU's on a full passive fit is a bit of a conflict. Shield Power relays and CDF's in the rig slots were the standard when full passive drake was the fad. I haven't rigged mine yet to see what shield recharge is but a passive Drake is one of the few ships I could disco my client on and not care about the new 5 minute PvE log out timer. In game EFT doesn't add damage defense according to recharge on the shield so it was not an efficient means of testing the ship.
Dr Topolex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1003 - 2013-05-18 03:08:44 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
ProphetGuru wrote:
RE the Navy Domi, I don't understand the logic of leaving the split weapon bonus, to create brutal options, when removing them from the base ship made so much sense. It puts the ship back into one of those (kinda does a few things good but not great) categories. If we are making it a drone boat, lets jump in with both feet and do it. The slot difference and it becoming a combat ship are enough justification to make it a "navy" version without having different bonuses just for the sake of having something different.

You are implying that it was not a drone boat to begin with.

The new bonus on the T1 variation is simply trash. CCP was wise enough to not translate it further onto the navy version. You should fit the navy version with a full rack of neutron blasters overloaded with void, flight of ogres, with a splash of triple mag stabs and triple drone damage mods.

An absolute dps **** machine. I'm just sad CCP took away the T1 version to allow for a reasonable priced version.



Why should this navy dominix, a lvl 1 requirement battleship, out shine both its bigger brother the navy thron (in its purposed role no less) and its counterpart the rattlesnake?
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1004 - 2013-05-18 04:38:24 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Altimo wrote:

1. That only applies to how you use the ship, that doesn't change the fact it has a superior tank.

No. If you don't need the boost bonus, the Mael has a poor tank, because it's buffer is poor.
Quote:

3. Rise said it was meant to be the "Fastest" of the combat battleships. But then when you armor tank it....

It's still pretty fast - for a battleship, even armour tanked.


I don't hear of any buffer tanked maelstroms for a reason, it has a superior active tank. But what does the tempest have? Not a whole lot in terms of tank, the fleet issue has maybe a bit more hp than a phoon fleet issue, but less damage and the speed does not give it an edge as over all it's still pretty slow.

There's no role that this ship has that is unique and special in its own. Your two utility highs can be used by a a bunch of other ships and if you keep harping on neuts well Armageddon has come literally.

Why would I use this ship over any other ship? I've asked this several times, and the best answer I got was "Armored Alpha" but then I realized, that the armor alpha isn't a great option for obvious reasons it currently stands. So why would I want to use this over a Sleipnir, Typhoon Fleet issue, Maelstrom, Abaddon, Raven, Raven Navy Issue, Hyperion, Megathrone, etc.

What does the tempest fleet issue have, or the regular tempest have that makes it stand out?
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#1005 - 2013-05-18 08:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
To CCP Rise:

Do you intend to overhaul the GOLEM / Marauder class ship one day? As it is.. the CNR is going to get worse with the current slot layout with 8 highslots but 8 launcher slots to compensate for the rof bonus. I must decide to switch to a CM Golem (which i hate because of NPC-Defenders) or just let run out my subscription.
It was always good to have one freely to use high slot for the CNR. I do not need the new explo radius bonus. It is something for smaller ships but useless against BS. For BS we need Rate Of Fire. For small ships we have drones. Does CCP want that I fire CM against frigates? Because cruiser, battlecruiser or battleships are no problem yet.
Please overthink to let the rate of fire bonus as it is.
Should the Raven Tech I be the only missile B-ship with a ROF bonus?
I really need that current high slot layout for a tractor beam and that rof-bonus from the current CNR. The new bonus and slot layout is worthless against BS.

Perhaps a better Golem would help a little bit. A Golem has tractor beams but at current is not useable with a CM layout.
A Caldari Ship MUST have a rate of Fire bonus. A silly Explo Radius Bonus is laughable if you already have the relevant skills to Level 5.

Any comments to that CCP Rise?
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#1006 - 2013-05-18 08:55:55 UTC
On CNR - 7 launchers and 5% damage bonus (equivalent 8.75 launchers) will be more acceptable.
one utility high slot, no CPU problems, not much dps (only 9% more than T1 Raven and SNI, but still less than TFI).
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1007 - 2013-05-18 10:57:09 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
On CNR - 7 launchers and 5% damage bonus (equivalent 8.75 launchers) will be more acceptable.
one utility high slot, no CPU problems, not much dps (only 9% more than T1 Raven and SNI, but still less than TFI).

Hmm, that would be quite reasonable actually, you would end up with 961 missile dps on the CNR while Raven would have 879. The CNR should take a small hit to it's drones then maybe.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1008 - 2013-05-18 11:13:54 UTC
I have flown the CNR for about 5/6 hours yesterday on Singularity, after having flown the Fleet Typhoon two days ago.

The CNR really is worse than the Fleet Typhoon. It doesn't have the 2 heavy neuts the Fleet Typhoon has, doesn't have any DPS advantage despite having more weapons, is way harder to fit (XLASB fits are completely out of question unless you fit 2+ CPU mods, Torps simply can't be fit), and it has of course only 2 sets of drones.

Yes, it's slower. Yes, it has a Explosion Radius bonus (That isn't all that stellar btw).

Imo, it should get a proper DPS bonus, 7 launchers and more fitting room.

Fleet Typhoons can be armor-Torps fit for brawling, and that's great. We need CNRs to be able to do the same while being shield-fitted with Torps. Sadly, there is not enough PWG for this.

Also, the dual neuts help the FleetTyphoon a lot along with the natural speed advantage. The CNR should get 7 launchers and a spare slot for a heavy neut. It will bring more DPS than the Fleet Typhoon, at the expense of speed and one heavy neut. How's that ?
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1009 - 2013-05-18 11:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
SMT008 wrote:
I have flown the CNR for about 5/6 hours yesterday on Singularity, after having flown the Fleet Typhoon two days ago.

The CNR really is worse than the Fleet Typhoon. It doesn't have the 2 heavy neuts the Fleet Typhoon has, doesn't have any DPS advantage despite having more weapons, is way harder to fit (XLASB fits are completely out of question unless you fit 2+ CPU mods, Torps simply can't be fit), and it has of course only 2 sets of drones.

Yes, it's slower. Yes, it has a Explosion Radius bonus (That isn't all that stellar btw).

Imo, it should get a proper DPS bonus, 7 launchers and more fitting room.

Fleet Typhoons can be armor-Torps fit for brawling, and that's great. We need CNRs to be able to do the same while being shield-fitted with Torps. Sadly, there is not enough PWG for this.

Also, the dual neuts help the FleetTyphoon a lot along with the natural speed advantage. The CNR should get 7 launchers and a spare slot for a heavy neut. It will bring more DPS than the Fleet Typhoon, at the expense of speed and one heavy neut. How's that ?


It's pointless to argue for the CNR, too many idiots who never made use of them arguing against 1150 DPS, despite the Fleet-Typhoon which can easily put out 1300+ DPS while having more utility, more speed etc..
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1010 - 2013-05-18 11:20:42 UTC
Dr Topolex wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
ProphetGuru wrote:
RE the Navy Domi, I don't understand the logic of leaving the split weapon bonus, to create brutal options, when removing them from the base ship made so much sense. It puts the ship back into one of those (kinda does a few things good but not great) categories. If we are making it a drone boat, lets jump in with both feet and do it. The slot difference and it becoming a combat ship are enough justification to make it a "navy" version without having different bonuses just for the sake of having something different.

You are implying that it was not a drone boat to begin with.

The new bonus on the T1 variation is simply trash. CCP was wise enough to not translate it further onto the navy version. You should fit the navy version with a full rack of neutron blasters overloaded with void, flight of ogres, with a splash of triple mag stabs and triple drone damage mods.

An absolute dps **** machine. I'm just sad CCP took away the T1 version to allow for a reasonable priced version.



Why should this navy dominix, a lvl 1 requirement battleship, out shine both its bigger brother the navy thron (in its purposed role no less) and its counterpart the rattlesnake?


Navy Domi is not a little brother of Navy Mega, they will have the same skill reqs in Odyssey.

The Gank Domi is shield tanked, the new Megas reach similar dps in armor tank fits, with better damage application, NDomi will have poor tracking and relies on drone damage for half of the total.

I'm personally very happy for the current split between Domi and Navy Domi, one is a pure drone ship and other a DPS monster.

.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1011 - 2013-05-18 11:22:01 UTC
screw me, idiot-posting.
Rabid Rich
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1012 - 2013-05-18 11:38:59 UTC
@ CCP Rise
Will the Typhoon Fleet Issue be getting it's mass reduced a bit further like the t1 typhoon got?

Because as it stands right now it is looking a bit heavy compared to the other attack navy BS. With mwd active a navy megathron is looking about as quick...which kinda makes the fleet issue phoon's high base speed look a bit moot.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1013 - 2013-05-18 11:55:16 UTC
Rabid Rich wrote:
@ CCP Rise
Will the Typhoon Fleet Issue be getting it's mass reduced a bit further like the t1 typhoon got?

Because as it stands right now it is looking a bit heavy compared to the other attack navy BS. With mwd active a navy megathron is looking about as quick...which kinda makes the fleet issue phoon's high base speed look a bit moot.


i think all the battleships need their mass reducing..

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1014 - 2013-05-18 12:44:07 UTC
Rabid Rich wrote:
@ CCP Rise
Will the Typhoon Fleet Issue be getting it's mass reduced a bit further like the t1 typhoon got?

Because as it stands right now it is looking a bit heavy compared to the other attack navy BS. With mwd active a navy megathron is looking about as quick...which kinda makes the fleet issue phoon's high base speed look a bit moot.


TBH, the fleet phoon does not really need any more buffs.
Yaturi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1015 - 2013-05-18 14:41:35 UTC
ProphetGuru wrote:
Navy Domi is not a little brother of Navy Mega, they will have the same skill reqs in Odyssey.

Is this on Singularity? I have not seen where this information has been put out.

Quote:
The Gank Domi is shield tanked,

As is the Rattlesnake, whose pirate faction designation means it should best any other contender in that role for which it does not. The NDomi is king of a split drone and weapon bonused ship layout. This is wrong.

Quote:
the new Megas reach similar dps in armor tank fits,


Similar? Not trying to be an eft warrior but something leads me to believe it is less. Especially, in an armor tanked vessel shouldn't it be significantly more?

Quote:
with better damage application, NDomi will have poor tracking and relies on drone damage for half of the total.


Again, if we're gonna talk about paper dps wouldn't damage application apply to damage type and not necessarily the slight variation in the already ample blaster tracking. NDomi prevails again.

Why would people choose the NThron over the NDomi when both share the same roles but one does it better? Isn't the whole purpose of this re balancing an effort to flesh out ships into identifiable roles, so all ships get used, so as not to lay dormant in obsoletion.

Quote:
I'm personally very happy for the current split between Domi and Navy Domi, one is a pure drone ship and other a DPS monster.


Of course you're happy because who wants to switch from a hull that works to one that has an alternate role. Just because it suits you doesn't mean that it is best for the game overall.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1016 - 2013-05-18 15:19:02 UTC
Both tempests are sad barely touched ships they will performed as such poor.

I don't have will to argue with ppl that don't want to listen to their player base on the issue.

I will note tho that other ships all are getting some kind of a buff and some of them are becoming OP that is noted by everybody..but still that it ok but for some reason when it come to tempest ANY change that can warrant ship will NOT suck is out of a question.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Altimo
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#1017 - 2013-05-18 15:47:08 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Both tempests are sad barely touched ships they will performed as such poor.

I don't have will to argue with ppl that don't want to listen to their player base on the issue.

I will note tho that other ships all are getting some kind of a buff and some of them are becoming OP that is noted by everybody..but still that it ok but for some reason when it come to tempest ANY change that can warrant ship will NOT suck is out of a question.



100x this, we've seen tons of battleships get a change that might be considered op, and yet the tempest can't even get a slot layout switch to aid it where its needed most.
Tritanium Avenger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1018 - 2013-05-18 16:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tritanium Avenger
[Machariel, lvl4]

7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L)
Small Tractor Beam II

Domination X-Large Shield Booster
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Core C-Type 100MN Afterburner

3x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
3x Tracking Enhancer II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

4x Berserker II


all skills 5 no implants:
DPS:1144 (1350 with drones)
turret opt/falloff:4000/69000
EHP:58586
Tank:476,38
speed:201/592
sig:357


[Typhoon Fleet Odyssey, PoormanMachariel]

6x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L)
2x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Inferno Cruise Missile)

Domination X-Large Shield Booster
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Core C-Type 100MN Afterburner

4x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
3x Tracking Enhancer II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

5x Berserker II
(+some free cpu)

all skills 5 no implants:
DPS:1046(pre-buff cruise missiles) (1303 with drones)
turret opt/falloff:4000/46000 (+missiles)
EHP:59568
Tank:466.12
speed:172/488
sig:336
costs 1/4 of a mach


Balanced?What?



PS: just to clarify the 12 turrets argument:
37,7 inrease in fire rate means 60% increase in dps, so:
6 turrets +60% =9.6
2 launchers +37,5% =2.75
total:12.35
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1019 - 2013-05-18 17:17:41 UTC
Yaturi wrote:

Is this on Singularity? I have not seen where this information has been put out.

This was the whole intent of tiericide, so that all ships in a class would be on equal footing, but have a different role. If there are still "little brothers" in a class then they've screwed up the entier tiericide initiative.

Yaturi wrote:

As is the Rattlesnake, whose pirate faction designation means it should best any other contender in that role for which it does not. The NDomi is king of a split drone and weapon bonused ship layout. This is wrong.

They haven't gotten around to rebalancing the Pirate faction ships yet. They have said that they intend to rebalance literally every ship. Just wait for it, I'm sure that the Rattle will have its place when it gets fixed.

Yaturi wrote:

Similar? Not trying to be an eft warrior but something leads me to believe it is less. Especially, in an armor tanked vessel shouldn't it be significantly more?
It should reach similar, if a bit lower DPS assuming they are both armour tanked, but the Megathron's damage will be completely non-destructible. Also, the drone AI is a piece of crap.

It might also be stated that the Megathron has a bit more speed to actually get into proper range. Not a real advantage at the battleship level when you have to sacrifice tank to get the speed, I know, but CCP seems intent on doing it.


Yaturi wrote:

Quote:
I'm personally very happy for the current split between Domi and Navy Domi, one is a pure drone ship and other a DPS monster.


Of course you're happy because who wants to switch from a hull that works to one that has an alternate role. Just because it suits you doesn't mean that it is best for the game overall.

[/quote]
Actually, lots of people were upset with the new T1 domi because they liked the old split weapon system. They decided to leave the navy domi as it was so that people had the option of having the ship, if at a higher price.

I'm personally quite glad they decided to leave the Navy Armageddon and Navy Dominix as throwbacks to the old ship. They might be substantially more expensive than the old ship we know and love (current 'geddons and domis are around 100m, the navy ships will probably be around 500-600m) but at least we have access to them. I like it this way.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#1020 - 2013-05-18 17:41:47 UTC
Tritanium Avenger wrote:
[Machariel, lvl4]

7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L)
Small Tractor Beam II

Domination X-Large Shield Booster
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Core C-Type 100MN Afterburner

3x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
3x Tracking Enhancer II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

4x Berserker II


all skills 5 no implants:
DPS:1144 (1350 with drones)
turret opt/falloff:4000/69000
EHP:58586
Tank:476,38
speed:201/592
sig:357


[Typhoon Fleet Odyssey, PoormanMachariel]

6x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L)
2x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Inferno Cruise Missile)

Domination X-Large Shield Booster
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Core C-Type 100MN Afterburner

4x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
3x Tracking Enhancer II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

5x Berserker II
(+some free cpu)

all skills 5 no implants:
DPS:1046(pre-buff cruise missiles) (1303 with drones)
turret opt/falloff:4000/46000 (+missiles)
EHP:59568
Tank:466.12
speed:172/488
sig:336
costs 1/4 of a mach


Balanced?What?



PS: just to clarify the 12 turrets argument:
37,7 inrease in fire rate means 60% increase in dps, so:
6 turrets +60% =9.6
2 launchers +37,5% =2.75
total:12.35


You could make a very similar fit in tranquility right now with Tempest Fleet....but nobody does because of the falloff. Mach has great damage projection thanks to that falloff which makes a HUGE difference.