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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#401 - 2013-05-14 10:20:09 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Interesting. Pity about CNR nerf tho


Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?



You can put a nano on it, fit cruise missiles and go hunt machariels!!! 1250m/sec with mwd


good luck hunting a mach with 1250 m/s

pvp mach is 1700+ m/s or 2500+ overloaded

he'll see you, laught at you while kitting you / applying his dps, while your torp / cruise will not even scratch his paint due to it's speed

and if he wants to be a total ass, he will send you ECM drones so you will just look at your CNR slowly melting
marVLs
#402 - 2013-05-14 10:24:45 UTC
New CNR will be better for missioners, that's true. And some dudes here saying it will not... uninstall game, cause You don't know nothing about it Lol

You get med slot (can get cap stable or TP)
Awesome DPS (30% buff to cruise missiles, and You really think they will not change ships considering this?)
Damage delivered to targets it's awesome, finally Furys will shine

Ship is faster, more agile etc.
Lower RoF means no wasted salvos, and new cruise missiles flight speed will help a lot.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#403 - 2013-05-14 10:25:43 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Interesting. Pity about CNR nerf tho


Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?



You can put a nano on it, fit cruise missiles and go hunt machariels!!! 1250m/sec with mwd


good luck hunting a mach with 1250 m/s

pvp mach is 1700+ m/s or 2500+ overloaded

he'll see you, laught at you while kitting you / applying his dps, while your torp / cruise will not even scratch his paint due to it's speed

and if he wants to be a total ass, he will send you ECM drones so you will just look at your CNR slowly melting



May I point you to response #408 of this thread?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#404 - 2013-05-14 10:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Grath Telkin wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
, and it's moving at the same velocity, or slower than, your missile's explosion velocity, then your will do full damage - none is mitigated. Not "nearly full damage", but "full damage".


Explosion velocities are low, so what i said is acurate

Most ships move at speeds that will mitigate damage because explosion velocities are really low in all cases, hence me actually stating that unless your target is sitting dead still it will mitigate some damage.

Take a heavy missile fired from a drake, its explosion velocity is 81, meaning that above 81 m/s, things start mitigating damage.

A torpedo is 71, even lower, the current explosion velocity on a cruise missile is 69 (these are base numbers without skills).

So my statement is in effect accurate, in that as soon as most targets begin moving at their base non MWD speeds (Npc's included) they begin to mitigate damage, which is further mitigated by signature.

The bonus from the new CNR will push most explosion velocities above or near the 200 mark with max skills, meaning that even ships at speed will take full damage


Train those skills. With TNP V, HMs have explosion velocity 121.5 m/s, torps have one of 106.5 m/s. Then learn how the quotient of [target signature]/[explosion radius] acts as a multiplier to the listed explosion velocity.

For example, a HM of explosion radius 105 m and explosion velocity 121.5 m/s will do full damage to a Hurricane of pre-MWD sig 310 m/s when MWDing at 2078 m/s with sig 1796 m/s, because the sig/radius quotient of 1796/105 = 17.1 increases the velocity max-damage threshold by that factor of 17.1, to 2078 m/s.

The statement that "unless your target is sitting dead still it will mitigate some damage" is true neither in a literal nor general sense. It's flat wrong.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#405 - 2013-05-14 10:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Interesting. Pity about CNR nerf tho


Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?



You can put a nano on it, fit cruise missiles and go hunt machariels!!! 1250m/sec with mwd


good luck hunting a mach with 1250 m/s

pvp mach is 1700+ m/s or 2500+ overloaded

he'll see you, laught at you while kitting you / applying his dps, while your torp / cruise will not even scratch his paint due to it's speed

and if he wants to be a total ass, he will send you ECM drones so you will just look at your CNR slowly melting



May I point you to response #408 of this thread?

math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.

eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.

go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself

cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.

but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#406 - 2013-05-14 10:39:48 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.

eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.

go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself

cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.

but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement


Yep, a Mach MWDing about at sig 1905 m and speed 1781 m/s will receive only about 50% damage from future CN cruise, even with TNP V and GMP V. Even adding a 36% painter only takes that up to about 65% damage.

But add three rigours as well as the painter and you're on 99% damage. Mind you, such a Raven would probably be flimsy enough to just let you MWD up to it and shoot its face off.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#407 - 2013-05-14 10:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia
I don't see why they just don't delete the Tempest hull entirely.

Since this is the last BS will probably ever get balanced for many years and that is going to be the effect of it's current "good at nothing" approach. Minmatar already have their BC hulls, what the hell do we want a BS sized BC for?

And of course we'll not address LP inconsistencies today or really anytime ever I'm sure. That's too obvious and would make too much sense. We need to focus group and have 5 CSM meetings to ignore and blah blah blah.

Maybe it will be part of a themed expansion in 3 years "Eve Online: FW again" (because we keep putting off obvious stuff so we can hit the pub)

Oh but look, the CNR/fleet phoon will be able to vaporize anything not a frigate...just like their t1 counterparts. Isn't that nice. Roll
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#408 - 2013-05-14 10:49:17 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:


You can put a nano on it, fit cruise missiles and go hunt machariels!!! 1250m/sec with mwd


good luck hunting a mach with 1250 m/s

pvp mach is 1700+ m/s or 2500+ overloaded

he'll see you, laught at you while kitting you / applying his dps, while your torp / cruise will not even scratch his paint due to it's speed

and if he wants to be a total ass, he will send you ECM drones so you will just look at your CNR slowly melting



May I point you to response #408 of this thread?

math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.

eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.

go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself

cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.

but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement


Depends on the external factors, implants and MWD used. A snaked loki linked mach with core x mwd will mitigate almost 2/3 dps and take only 1/3 damage , while a vanilla solo mach with regular mwd and a naked pilot will get hit by full dps.

...and even when taking full dps, mach will probably be able to kill the CNR...so the comparision is pointless.
monkfish2345
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#409 - 2013-05-14 10:56:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
This list. I don't suppose we can get any sneak peeks at what's in store for rebalance in the near future? Not in any order, obviously, but just to see what's on the menu.


Of course, no promises in terms of order or anything - but the short list includes things like medium rails, hacs, eafs, beams, some other t2 classes like inties/maurders, and some other mods which i don't want to name atm incase they get pushed back awhile. =)


have command ships fallen off the balance table?
Tim Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
#410 - 2013-05-14 10:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tim Ryder
Even disregarding the change in launcher count and bonuses for the Raven Navy, one big problem still remains. The fact that you'll still want to use rigors or flares means that your launchers eat CPU. We're having to feed an extra launcher CPU that simply isn't there even with WU V and Launcher Rigging IV. It's already tight enough to need a co-processor for some fits, high end xl booster and AB for instance. 45 CPU simply is not enough to drive a single launcher, much less that *and* another midslot.

Talking PvE mission fits, of course, I know nothing of PvP fits.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#411 - 2013-05-14 11:03:50 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Doesn't anyone in general think the explosion velocity bonus should be a dual bonus that reduces signature resolution as well?

Compared to a tracking bonus, it's a bit weak imo.



That would be the same as a trcking bonusthat also reduces signature of guns. The mechanics exist on both types of weapon systemes..

Explosion velocity bonus are not weak if the ship has a high enough base DPS.

Just missiles are very hard to balance.. they get very weak very fast agaisnt fast moving targets... or they stay too powerful against slow targtets.

It's mostly damage application vs smaller ships. Vs a cruiser, napocs will be doing almost all of its damage to anything orbiting out side of 25km. The precision missile raven on the other hand will be doing about a 1/3 with out painters or rigs.



Maybe, but i think PVP only when I talk about balance. And an missiles at very close range are much more efficient.


I can kill an new NAvy APOC with a BELLICOSE orbiting it close with AB. I would die very fast against a new Navy raven.


Its all tradefoff.

At same time there are no trackign disruptors affectign missiles. IF trackign disruptors start to affect missiles, then sure missiles shoudl receive MODULES that boost both explosion velocity and signature.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#412 - 2013-05-14 11:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Malcanis wrote:


Again: produce a scenario where the Cruise CNR will be worse after Odessey than before.


Fit Torps - Done. (just trolling a little)

To be more serious, the new CNR will struggle with fittings, no utility highslot anymore, not enough CPU/PG to fit an active Tank (with cap-boosters ofcourse) etc..
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#413 - 2013-05-14 11:14:32 UTC
So is this really intentional?

Raven effectively 8 launchers.
Bonus for missile range.

Typhoon effectively 8 launchers
Bonus for damage application.

Golem effectively 8 launchers.
Bonus to damage application, range, tank and looting.

SNI effectively 8 launchers
Nerfed tank bonus.

NEW CN Raven effectively 8 launchers
Umm... range bonus for missiles when they talk about cruise missiles? Typhoon's damage application bonus.

Typhoon FI effectively 8.25 launchers.
37.5% ROF bonus to AC's in top of the best missile dps ship.

Current CN Raven effectively ~9 launchers
Bonus for range.

Every missile BS will have the exact same raw dps, except for Typhoon FI which surprise! is minmatar ship. Because of course minmatar need to have the best missile ships right?

Yeah, the new cnr will be applying it's dps better as default but who the heck flies any BS missile boat without tp's after odyssey? I can add tp's to my fitting myself thank you very much BUT i can't add that additional dps the current one has.

The only reason anyone flies CNR today is that extra launcher for the best missile dps boat! On the new one you can fit 1less tp's so you can erm... add even more tank when it's not even needed but deal same dps as Raven? Oh, almost forgot it took nerf to hitpoints.

" Along with the incoming buff to cruise missiles, this ship is going to be an animal. "
Nothing that Typhoon can't do with way less cost, also torpedo ships effectively took huge nerf.

Just how Amarr ships needed the bonus to laser capacitor use Caldari will now need damage application bonus to actually use our ships... because i can see the upcoming torp changes now, it will get the same treatment as cruise missiles and rendered practically useless unless on damage application bonused ship with atleast 3 tp's.

TLDR: CNR was hugely nerfed. You will have to be dumb to not see that.
kari bourza
Shield of Iron Crown
#414 - 2013-05-14 11:14:49 UTC
Well this was very disappointing ....
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#415 - 2013-05-14 11:14:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Want to point to you RIse that the current Fleet phoon with PROJECTILES outdamages the tempest with projectiles. That is sad.. and I did not even factor in the better slot layout of the typhoon.


BOTH the normal and fleet tempest must be more dangerous for a ship with DOUBLE damage bonus. Currently it cannot outdamage the typhoon, maelestrom, Hyperion, Megatron, armageddon in basiccally ANY relevant range !


The tempest current layout + bonus combination is HORRIBLE! IT you insist on keepign it then it would need to gain at LEAST 100/125 drone bay to match what the typhoon do with 1 single bonus!

And the tempest needs a 6th med.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#416 - 2013-05-14 11:15:31 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Again: produce a scenario where the Cruise CNR will be worse after Odessey than before.


Fit Torps - Done. (just trolling a little)

To be more serious, the new CNR will struggle with fittings, no utility highslot anymore, not enough CPU/PG to fit an active Tank (with cap-boosters ofcourse) etc..


The New one will have better damage application, You might even get away wit using one less TP, so You'll have more tank with the new one...

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
#417 - 2013-05-14 11:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nessa Aldeen
seth Hendar wrote:

math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.

eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.

go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself

cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.

but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement



What on earth is a SNR..? Scorpion Navy Raven? or Sexy Navy Raven?

It's hard to explain to PVE-centric people about reality vs EFT, they have to be blown up first to make them understand it better. Simply put the Mach will just put the CNR into deep structure all the while chucking with its Core-X Mwd.

On a sidenote, for those who claim the SNI will be OP, please give me the crack you're taking. Also, let's all try and save the Tempest Fleet Issue before it get's relegated to oblivion (it's already in the abyss).
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#418 - 2013-05-14 11:25:36 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
math doesn't hold the field test, i fought enought missiles boats with my mach to ensure you that they won't apply full DPS.

eft is a great tool, as are math, but it doesn't make it all.

go on the field, with a mach vs a CNR / SNR and see by yourself

cruise CNR vs mach, i would never bet on the CNR, your face will be melted before you even reached 50% of it's shield.

but feel free to hunt mach with it, after you have lost a couple you might rethink your statement


I never said I'd bet on the CNR, did I? :) If math is wrong, then I expect you to do the following:

1. Take out the Machariel with an MWD and a CNR with your usual missile fit, then launch missile on the overloading Mach. You'll notice that he's taking full damage (minus resists, of course) - even though it's speeding about, the oversized sig it gets from MWD mitigates that speed.

2. Now do the same, but equip that Machariel with AB. You'll notice it's actually taking LESS damage, even though it's slower.

If math didn't hold, how would this be possible?

What makes the difference isn't Mach's speed, it's how the ship performs relative to CNR (read: much better) plus how it stacks with links, boosters, etc. I wasn't correcting your claim that Mach would win. I was correcting your claim that Mach would mitigate damage because it's buzzing about with MWD. In fact, it's quite the opposite - I'm willing to bet you that a Mach standing perfectly still 50 km from the CNR can still win the fight as a proof that speed has nothing to do with it, just as I am willing to bet that a Vindicator will melt that Machariel at 10 km.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#419 - 2013-05-14 11:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
So Raven and Typhoon are the winners, most others are meh, and Gallente gets kicked in the nuts. The "changes" to the Dominix suck. The T1 ship gets a major buff to drones and for the navy version we get nothing. No additional bonus, no 6th drone, no larger drone bay, no slot changes, etc. Oh but you did throw in a completely unnecessary sig bloom (+35, really?) to offset the "buff" to shields and armor.

Please do us a favor and don't rush these changes in. Actually put some thought into navy BS changes and do them properly.


Edit: ok Raven changes are maybe not that great so only the phoon wins
Perihelion Olenard
#420 - 2013-05-14 11:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
It's good to see the bonuses on the navy Dominix have stayed the same, it's getting more PG, and getting more HP. I should have enough PG now to fit exactly what I want and still fit large blasters. I doubt I'll use the navy Megathron for anything, though.