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[Odyssey] Navy Battleships

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#361 - 2013-05-14 08:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Grath Telkin wrote:


So basically, if your target moves, at all, its mitigating SOME missile damage. The faster it goes, the more it mitigates as it gets out of the explosion area of said missile.


No. Just, no. This is how turrets work, not missiles. Everything you're saying in this thread is right apart from your understanding of missile damage application. I'm saddened to side with the mission runners here.

If your target has a sig radius the same size as, or larger than, your missile's explosion radius, and it's moving at the same velocity, or slower than, your missile's explosion velocity, then your will do full damage - none is mitigated. Not "nearly full damage", but "full damage". There's also the more complicated area of the quotient of signature and explosion radius acting as a modifier to the quotient of explosion velocity and velocity, but that's the basic principle.

This means that a typical bear Raven, with three rigours, relatively reliably applies full DPS to NPC BS and BCs. I say "relatively" because their tendency to cycle MWDs messes up the numbers as they decelerate from high speed with MWD off.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#362 - 2013-05-14 08:40:39 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
All I see here is WIN for Caldari, tears for Amarr, Ho-hum for Minimtar and more hate for Gallente....

CCP Rise, your Battleship changes suck donkeyballs.... please bring back CCP Fozzie



true i have almost no issues with al the ships ballanced by fozzie let him do BS plz
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#363 - 2013-05-14 08:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Grath Telkin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


Correct, you're not hitting them for full damage. I understand that you don't understand the missile damage formula but I'm trying to explain it in the terms that might get through to you


I understand that you are full of crap and unable to do the math. It's either this, or you are just another failfit pilot. Ofcourse, you might just talk about resists as the reason for your lack of your knowledge, but no sane person would count them in while talking about damage application as you can't change them anyway.

Quote:

No, thats not why you'll hit them harder, and I honestly can't see how you get out of bed in the morning and dress yourself since you literally have no idea how your own ship works.


The reason is infact the raw-damage boost, just go out in a proper fitted raven, and see what this is doing with cruisers. One Volley and they are at less than 10% Armor..

Quote:

I own one, of just about every BS, currently missing a Navy Scorp, Bhaalgorn and Nightmare, thanks for the suggestion I can't wait to use it after these changes as it will literally be a monster, you know, like everybody who isn't a mission running clueless pubbie


Oh, you OWN one.. here's something new for you - owning doesn't equal flying.


Ok then bright guy, tell me how missile damage works, show me the math.


EDIT: All the math, as in the full missile damage formula.

You say I don't know what I'm talking about, why dont you tell me how missile damage works and is applied to a target. Feel free to use actual numbers in the formula, you can even use example ships, in example situations.

EDIT EDIT: If it makes it better for you I can even supply you with the fitted ships and stats of each to use as an example.


Takes a while, as I'm at work. Gimme some time, will do that once I'm in the mood for it.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The CNR does the damage I mentioned at the moment, right now and every day while missioning.. without the damage buff. Even without the 8th launcher - it would one-hit cruisers with just the 25% damage buff alone.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#364 - 2013-05-14 08:44:16 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Tracking/Range is the god combo of all time, doubly so on a laser hull (for as long as Scorch exists), but what good is phenomenal gun attributes if those guns are silenced after a few minutes?


In that sense, wouldn't it be too powerful if the doubly god combo managed to fire non-stop without making any sacrifices on other places??

Also that sentence sounded too much like this :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWBntJAvTmY
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#365 - 2013-05-14 08:44:38 UTC
Doesn't anyone in general think the explosion velocity bonus should be a dual bonus that reduces signature resolution as well?

Compared to a tracking bonus, it's a bit weak imo.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#366 - 2013-05-14 08:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Also, is anyone happy with the t1 or fleet tempest?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#367 - 2013-05-14 08:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Gypsio III wrote:
, and it's moving at the same velocity, or slower than, your missile's explosion velocity, then your will do full damage - none is mitigated. Not "nearly full damage", but "full damage".


Explosion velocities are low, so what i said is acurate

Most ships move at speeds that will mitigate damage because explosion velocities are really low in all cases, hence me actually stating that unless your target is sitting dead still it will mitigate some damage.

Take a heavy missile fired from a drake, its explosion velocity is 81, meaning that above 81 m/s, things start mitigating damage.


A torpedo is 71, even lower, the current explosion velocity on a cruise missile is 69 (these are base numbers without skills).

So my statement is in effect accurate, in that as soon as most targets begin moving at their base non MWD speeds (Npc's included) they begin to mitigate damage, which is further mitigated by signature.

The bonus from the new CNR will push most explosion velocities above or near the 200 mark with max skills, meaning that even ships at speed will take full damage

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#368 - 2013-05-14 08:47:36 UTC
Alright, after some extensive testing in EFT (or ingame, for the regular T1 battleships), here's what I got :

Navy Typhoon :

I did 3 fits. An armor-Torps, a Mach-like nanoshield fit with guns and a PODLA Kiting cruise-Typhoon.

The armor-Torps one is great, except that you can't fit T2 weapons. It cause both CPU and PWG issues, and that's even with a medium cap booster.

The Mach-like fit is impossible to reach, plain and simple. It's obviously worse than a Machariel in regards of being a gunboat, but I thought maybe it can have a different flavour by having dual heavy neuts ?

It doesn't have near enough PWG to fit that.

The last shield-cruise fit is actually pretty good. I like it.

So yeah, needs more PWG to make it usable as a gunboat. Other than that, well, I suppose the Torp launchers issue are related to the weapon system and you'll fix it later.

Fleet Tempest :

As said pretty much everywhere, both the fleet Tempest and the regular Tempest are heavely underwhelming.

We're talking about the supposedly ultimate gunboat, with 2 bonuses for damage. The Fleet Tempest fitted for armor Alpha is actually the only way to fit a Tempest hull for something useful.

The regular shield Tempest is bad. It's too slow to be a kiter, 68k EHP is very, very low for a battleship, 730 DPS is outmached by every ABCs at every range, the 100MN MWD cap-consumption issue is of course still a massive burden on every battleships. Oh and yeah, it has 75mb bandwith that no one will ever use on a shield ship because 3 heavy drones is ridiculously bad.

The regular Tempest can't be armor-fit because of powergrid issues, even with autocannons and all skills V.

The Fleet shield Tempest is still very underwhelming. It doesn't do much DPS (732 at 3.6+34 thanks to the TE nerf), still need a cap booster like every battleship that fits a MWD. Yay, 3 heavy drones that I can't use anyway.

Seriously tho, either make it the king of turret DPS, or boost its DPS AND get a useful secondary bonus.

It's outmatched by every close-range battleships at close range, and by every long-range battleships at long range. In both regular and fleet version.

Please, it's that bad. I don't see why anyone would fly Tempests (both regular and fleet versions) when everything else is just so much better (Except for the Armor Alpha FleetPest).

Navy Raven :

This Cruise Navy Raven is great. Nothing else to say, seems like a solid ship.

The Torp-NavyRaven however isn't all that great. I think it's a problem related to the weapon system mainly. Torps have higher PWG requirements than cruise even tho they are the short-range weapon system. They have hilariously high CPU needs, which cause issues on non-Caldari hulls.

And then there is the DPS and damage application issue.

To me, it's not worth fitting torps on Caldari ships now. The DPS increase isn't all that great (1163 vs 1037 with cruise), the range is still the same range HAMs have....seriously. No point fitting torps right now. I did a duel with a Raven that had non-T2 cruise launchers, while I had my T2 torps and a good active fit. I almost lost. Against a cruise missile Raven at close-range.

Torps need some improvements before we can give proper feedback on Torp-ships.

Other than that, I really like the idea of a 8-launchers battleship. It's a novelty, and I like it very much, even if it's actually a nerf.

That's all for now, I still have to review Gallentes and Amarrs.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#369 - 2013-05-14 08:48:20 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Doesn't anyone in general think the explosion velocity bonus should be a dual bonus that reduces signature resolution as well?

Compared to a tracking bonus, it's a bit weak imo.



That would be the same as a trcking bonusthat also reduces signature of guns. The mechanics exist on both types of weapon systemes..

Explosion velocity bonus are not weak if the ship has a high enough base DPS.

Just missiles are very hard to balance.. they get very weak very fast agaisnt fast moving targets... or they stay too powerful against slow targtets.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#370 - 2013-05-14 09:06:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Doesn't anyone in general think the explosion velocity bonus should be a dual bonus that reduces signature resolution as well?

Compared to a tracking bonus, it's a bit weak imo.



That would be the same as a trcking bonusthat also reduces signature of guns. The mechanics exist on both types of weapon systemes..

Explosion velocity bonus are not weak if the ship has a high enough base DPS.

Just missiles are very hard to balance.. they get very weak very fast agaisnt fast moving targets... or they stay too powerful against slow targtets.

It's mostly damage application vs smaller ships. Vs a cruiser, napocs will be doing almost all of its damage to anything orbiting out side of 25km. The precision missile raven on the other hand will be doing about a 1/3 with out painters or rigs.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#371 - 2013-05-14 09:07:53 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


Explosion velocities are low, so what i said is acurate



This is only true if you completely ignore the Signature/explosion-radius part of the equation...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#372 - 2013-05-14 09:13:16 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Interesting. Pity about CNR nerf tho


Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#373 - 2013-05-14 09:16:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Interesting. Pity about CNR nerf tho


Can you give me a scenario where the CNR post June 5th won't be better than it is now?



Just look at the new EHP numbers. You're welcome.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#374 - 2013-05-14 09:16:57 UTC
For the explosion velocity bonus There is also the problem of being in the nominator.

The speed part of formula is: (Exp Velocity * bonus)/Target Velocity....so it is on the nominator. %25 increase is a flat out %25 increase

An explosion radius bonus (rigors) is applied as reduction on denominator. Target sig / (missile sig * bonus). So a %25 decrese is a %33 increase.

Furthermore, there is also the part where sig radius bonus applies even for still standing targets, which differentiates it from turrets.

In short, sig radius bonus is much more effective than exp velocity bonus.

...and no these ships should NOT get sig radius bonus because it is too powerful.

a %7.5 per level expvel bonus on the other hand......might be handy.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#375 - 2013-05-14 09:17:13 UTC
AND again ... dominix get ... nothing ... really CCP !!

you have to stop about this seriously

And well played Not making a post for Gallente, minm, amarr and calda Like the Tech1 one are you afraid of the 2K replies here too for the gallente changes??

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#376 - 2013-05-14 09:18:03 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


Explosion velocities are low, so what i said is acurate



This is only true if you completely ignore the Signature/explosion-radius part of the equation...


No they're two different parts of the equation that both effect damage applied.

You can be moving fast, but have a huge sig and still take but loads of damage

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#377 - 2013-05-14 09:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Grath Telkin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


Explosion velocities are low, so what i said is acurate



This is only true if you completely ignore the Signature/explosion-radius part of the equation...


No they're two different parts of the equation that both effect damage applied.

You can be moving fast, but have a huge sig and still take but loads of damage


because sig/ExploRad can make up for the dmg lost to EV/V completely, given that the sig is high enough // low enough explosionRad..

Just to make it clear for you:

Dmg can't be 100% if sig is < ExploRad, no matter how EV/V is.
Dmg can be 100% if EV < V, given that Sig/Explo is in your favour.

Therefore, what you said is inaccurate. It is possible to apply 100% damage to a target, if EV is < Targets Velocity. You just need to bump up targets Sig / or reduce explosionRadius, and this is exactly what TP's and rigors do.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#378 - 2013-05-14 09:25:22 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


Explosion velocities are low, so what i said is acurate



This is only true if you completely ignore the Signature/explosion-radius part of the equation...


No they're two different parts of the equation that both effect damage applied.

You can be moving fast, but have a huge sig and still take but loads of damage



Let's take a higher level view of the issue:

There's only one scenario I can think of where the new CNR won't be better than the current CNR. If you're ungrouping your launchers and firing at a large number of large, very low hitpoint targets, then the current CNR is better. Let's see what this means

SCENARIOS WHERE THE CURRENT CNR IS BETTER:
You've decided you want to clear all the wrecks and cans from the grid and you're using a CNR to do it for whatever reason.

SCENARIOS WHERE THE NEW CNR WILL BE BETTER:
Everything else.


So if your current primary use for your Navy Raven is blapping wrecks and cans, well then son I'm sorry for your loss, you're gonna be worse off.

If you use your navy raven for anything else, it's going to be 10-50% better than it is now: you're welcome, no need to say thank you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#379 - 2013-05-14 09:27:52 UTC
Oh and it's going to be 1/3 faster as well.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#380 - 2013-05-14 09:27:58 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Any particular reason why you don't want to make the Dominix have 20 fitting slots like every other Navy BS? Would be kinda nice to have 8 low slots since it's a split weapon platform AND supposed to be armor tanked...


drones.

apparently drone utility negates a fitting slot for some reason.



Because drones can imitate a target painter, web, jammer, dampener, reps, or dps, so ships that specialize in high drone payloads receive one less slot.


This is a ******** reason (I know it's the only one CCP has given) for the simple fact that said drone ships don't get any bonus to the effect of EWAR drones. This means that any ship with drone bay can use EWAR drones, but only drone ships are at disadvantage when using them- they lose dps.

Drone damage bonus should be extended to all drone effects, then the loss of a slot would be justified.

.