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The only thing that stops me playing - Jump clone timers.

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Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
#141 - 2013-05-13 18:33:01 UTC
Some people confuse something they have with what they should have. If you want to pvp why not just cast off things that make you anxious? It's just a game.

If you're so scared to lose fictional money to play the game what is the point in playing it?
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#142 - 2013-05-13 18:46:16 UTC
Leper ofBacon wrote:
Some people confuse something they have with what they should have. If you want to pvp why not just cast off things that make you anxious? It's just a game.

If you're so scared to lose fictional money to play the game what is the point in playing it?


To make MOAR fictional money and accrue MOAR skillpoints NAO, apparently.

Didn't you know? Learning implants aren't even optional. Must have, mkay? Be there, or be square.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-05-13 18:51:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Someone who really wants to pvp (but doesn't want to lose a lot of isk pvping) won't put +5 implants into a pvp toon's brain, period. They'll use cheaper implants , because EVE players don't Brain what they can't afford to lose.i

But with implants, you can simply choose less expensive implants or no implants at all and simply delay gratification on skill training a bit. I can see the validity to the slippery slope argument in this case, if you start taking away consequences now, the next generation of player (who didn't experience the original consequences) will want even more changes to enhance their comfort.



I don't even bother with +5s yet I can afford them and currently in high-sec.

But to newish players even +3s they might not be able to afford to lose and newish players won't see any benefit to extending their training times as it means it'll be even longer before they're able to do more useful things ingame.

Learning implants should have gone when learning skills went, it's not the slippery slope, slippery slope argument was even being used by the don't remove learning skill crowd. It's not even about taking away consequence, it's about removing something that prevents people playing (experimenting) with PvP and exploration in hostile regions earlier in their EVE careers.

Do you think it's fair that PvPers should suffer skill training time loses just because they want to PvP when PvP is a core part of EVE?

You'll probably say it's a choice, but it's not really a choice because if you want to PvP and can't afford to replace +5s or +4s then you can't use those. So the only choice you can make is do you PvP or stay in high-sec, which doesn't promote PvP .
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#144 - 2013-05-13 18:55:33 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:

Do you think it's fair that PvPers should suffer skill training time loses just because they want to PvP when PvP is a core part of EVE?


No one is suffering. These aren't the starving children of Somalia. They're grown ass people that made a choice to forego some training time to get out and blow stuff up. If anything, they're probably having more fun than you, because they chose not to tie their daily activity to a set of implants.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#145 - 2013-05-13 18:58:20 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Six Six Six wrote:

Do you think it's fair that PvPers should suffer skill training time loses just because they want to PvP when PvP is a core part of EVE?


No one is suffering. These aren't the starving children of Somalia. They're grown ass people that made a choice to forego some training time to get out and blow stuff up. If anything, they're probably having more fun than you, because they chose not to tie their daily activity to a set of implants.




I think you'll find that a lot of PvPers do suffer, if they were not bothered about it they would not keep jumping back to training clones every chance they get.
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors
#146 - 2013-05-13 19:43:35 UTC
Was this ever determined to be a troll all along, because this is insane that you think the game should be changed because you don't like it.

Everything in the game has consequences. It's very nice and all that you want to keep your expensive brain safe so you can cruise along in your training, but rarely can you have your cake and not blow it up too.

Go PVP in that clone, get +3's and fight in those, or do not complain. This would not be Eve if you could just freely do as you please without some consequences.


I swear the things people complain about are getting more ridiculous by the day.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-05-13 19:49:13 UTC
Well how about removable Implants?
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#148 - 2013-05-13 19:56:20 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Well how about removable Implants?



Still won't address the training time difference between PvPers and PvEers.

It would also cause a problem in the fact you would have to return to the station where you left them.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2013-05-13 20:06:10 UTC
Gritz1 wrote:
This would not be Eve if you could just freely do as you please without some consequences.

Nobody's proposing that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2013-05-13 20:22:54 UTC
Having played several mmos where "travel by dying" is common, I can't even begin to describe how stupid it makes the game.
Jump clones as is are already bad enough, don't make it worse.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#151 - 2013-05-13 20:27:38 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Well how about removable Implants?


You may remove your implants any time you like.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#152 - 2013-05-13 21:54:49 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Ikasha Aurilen wrote:
I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM.


How do your work colleagues put up with your stench? Do they ever mention this to you?


Looking at your comment and your signature you obviously have some kinda youth trauma about your body odor.. Did people bully you about it? Poor thing, no wonder you ended up bullying others in Goons. I advice you seek some professional help.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#153 - 2013-05-13 22:23:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Implants are an isk sink. If there is more demand for implants, more ISK will be removed from the economy. The destruction of implants needs to be encouraged.


Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Draqone an'Alreigh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-05-13 22:32:55 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Implants are an isk sink. If there is more demand for implants, more ISK will be removed from the economy. The destruction of implants needs to be encouraged.


Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..


Implants cost ISK as well as LP. And there's also the tax. Which you should know with a corp name like that.

Inducing the proliferation of common sense throughout EVE Official forums since April 27th, 2013.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#155 - 2013-05-13 22:33:05 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Implants are an isk sink. If there is more demand for implants, more ISK will be removed from the economy. The destruction of implants needs to be encouraged.


Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..


I need to know where you're shopping, since I've never gotten a single implant from an LP store without paying some isk to the NPC vendor.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2013-05-13 23:09:21 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Having played several mmos where "travel by dying" is common, I can't even begin to describe how stupid it makes the game.
Jump clones as is are already bad enough, don't make it worse.

Good thing I explained, several times, ways to avoid that problem.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#157 - 2013-05-13 23:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Radius Prime
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Roime wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Regardless of whether this is their own psychological issue or not, this behavior is damaging to gameplay

People are fine with the costs of ships, modules, etc. because that's a possible loss that people accept when they go to PVP. They accept it because these modules or ships contribute to some extent. Learning implants don't.

Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?


Their psychological issues are damaging to their gameplay.

And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
That's what makes this a problem.

Their reduced enjoyment of the game will also mean more likelyhood of them stopping to pay for the game, which is a reason CCP might care for the issue. Improving the system doesn't do harm for the game either, so I'm not sure why some people are so deadset on defending the statusquo. I understand people disagreeing on the specific method used to improve the situation, since they have their downsides or don't go far enough, but to actively oppose getting more people to participate in PvP instead of just logging off in frustration is something I don't get.


It's the old, "I didn't have it so neither should you.." Basic human psychology.. A lot of these hardcore pvpers have wasted so much skill training time that they would actually be jealous and angry if someone new could pvp like them and not lose training time at the same time as THEY did... (even if they are 100 million ahead of him)

The same basic emotion is why they bite at the OP, they even have a problem with the fact that a decent planning newb wants +5s and could soon catch up and pass them SP-wise. What if he could somehow learn to pvp and play the game afterwards he might become superior to them/more important to the corp in others' eye --> when people feel threatened, they start to feel cornered and bite. The OP is just as dedicated as any pvper, he just started late and wants to train ships as fast as he can as to catch up with the people who got in line earlier.

So now we have established why they will defend the status quo and would even quit (there goes the good old, we always pvp cause we love the game while he has the nerve to never undock) if CCP took steps to make a young players' life easier.

Then I read this guy who said: "Those newbs just want it now, they can't wait as we did, they just want to remove everything we love about this game, they have no patience...". Well to that I say, here is a guy who wants to play the game but doesn't because he wouldn't be able to catch up and be as good as all these oldtimer pvpers, talk about patience... They are the ones who couldn't wait to get in (unlike what he is doing), didn't have the patience to skill into ships before flying them (they were the newb flying the BS after a month and didn't train learning skills in favour of direct enjoyment) and now that they have these rotten accounts they will damn well make sure the OP has a rotten account as well if he chooses to pvp. To achieve that, they will even lower themselves to scalding him, calling him names and turn the world around and tell him he is the inpatient one.

The human psyche, something else eeh?

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#158 - 2013-05-13 23:31:43 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Radius Prime wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Implants are an isk sink. If there is more demand for implants, more ISK will be removed from the economy. The destruction of implants needs to be encouraged.


Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..


I need to know where you're shopping, since I've never gotten a single implant from an LP store without paying some isk to the NPC vendor.


Next thing you'll say it's enough to be called an ISK sink? Dieing 200 times in an 50 million isk clone is an isk sink..

I probably don't have to tell you that I don't go to many LP stores to buy implants and just said the above to save my comment cause you made me turn red in shame right?

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#159 - 2013-05-13 23:39:12 UTC
Draqone an'Alreigh wrote:
Radius Prime wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Implants are an isk sink. If there is more demand for implants, more ISK will be removed from the economy. The destruction of implants needs to be encouraged.


Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..


Implants cost ISK as well as LP. And there's also the tax. Which you should know with a corp name like that.


I seldom focus on the evading part, most of the time it's the Ass that shines.

Still the money part is negligible.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#160 - 2013-05-14 14:26:47 UTC
Ikasha Aurilen wrote:
Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM. At this point I want to relax do some PvP until I go to bed, but it always comes down to the fact that to do 2 or 3 hrs of PvP would mean being out of my learning clone for 24hrs (Assuming I don't want to risk a 550m pod every time I go out in a frig.)

So basically I think the timer for Jump clones is absurdly long to the point where during the week I only log in to update the queue and check the trades.

I also can't see any point in it being so long. I understand that it's in place to prevent people jumping all over the galaxy. However a timer of say 6 hours would stop people being able to do this, and it would also mean I could log in jump to a pvp clone, have some fun and jump back to a learning clone later.



Jumping in and out of a learning clone is hardly efficient... So you go through all that trouble to save what, 50+ days a year in skill training?

Personally I only use +3 implants and have my attributes 24/24/20/23/23 int/per/char/will/mem, a nice and balanced setup, which works fine because I train a little of everything. This means I don't have to worry about getting podded in an expensive clone, damn some people have to make everything super hard for them selves and then complain about it to others...

Op if you can't afford the +5's then don't use them, hell you would only probably save about 28 days in a years skill training with your +5's compared with my +3's Lol