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The only thing that stops me playing - Jump clone timers.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2013-05-13 17:38:03 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
thanks. i understand your point
If you did, why did you post something that shows that you didn't?

But if you what you say is true, then great! I suppose we won't see any uninformed nonsense from you about how the removal of learning skills had anything to do with want-it-now attitudes or lack of planning in the future.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2013-05-13 17:39:39 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

  • Learning boosters are an interesting idea but pose problems of their own, such as removing the ISK sink of implants (as I doubt CCP is inclined to introduce any additional items into the game that are NPC sold) and requiring a lot of work to develop for questionable benefit
    • [/list]


    I still believe this is the best idea. Remove learning implants or all implants for that matter and switch to a multi-day booster. It wouldn't need to be NPC seeded, and if you add BPCs for pirate factions/FW could still work as a sink. Not to mention expand low sec's gas cloud capabilities to not only help drive traffic but give more incentive to live in low.

    There are flaws to every idea and with the current mechanic. While a switch to boosters would be annoying, it has more overall benefits then downsides, in comparison to the current system or just reducing JC timer.



    The idea wasn't for the boosters to completely replace implants but to be used as an alternative for people who just want to do some casual PvP and people who expect to die very often.

    If boosters were to completely replace learning implants they would have to be pretty cheap. And there would have to be something like 30 day boosters or the ability to take several boosters at once to get a very long duration.
    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #123 - 2013-05-13 17:40:37 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:

    And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
    That's what makes this a problem.


    Not really, there is no lack of targets in this game.

    Some people feel that fights should be made fair and argue that arenas would increase PVP. Others feel that full loot is too harsh, and if they could keep their shinies after defeat there would be more PVP. Others feel that blobs are unfair, and introducing hardcoded fleet size restrictions would increase PVP.

    And so on. I would but, I would if, while all the time others just do it.

    Should these personal problems be used as basis for game design changes?




    .
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #124 - 2013-05-13 17:41:36 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    I guess I'll just consolidate some of my points here:

    • You can't just allow timerless clones within the same station. This in combination with changing med clone stations leads to abuse.
    • For the same reason, you can't just allow players to unplug their implants.
    • You can't shorten the JC timer (except by a small amount of less than one hour to avoid the issue of having the end of the timer get continually pushed back every day) because that causes the same problems with fast travel that CCP wants to avoid.
    • Removing learning implants entirely isn't a solution because there are definite pros to the system that need not be negated.
    • Learning boosters are an interesting idea but pose problems of their own, such as removing the ISK sink of implants (as I doubt CCP is inclined to introduce any additional items into the game that are NPC sold) and requiring a lot of work to develop for questionable benefit

    So x,y,z can't be revamped because of a,b,c??

    Is there some unwritten rule that says a,b,c is not allowed to be revamped?
    March rabbit
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #125 - 2013-05-13 17:41:42 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    March rabbit wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    I still think learning implants are a good thing generally because they're one way that players can have an edge over others in training speed, the other way of course being neural remaps. If one can afford that edge they should by all means be allowed to have it.

    replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....

    We will remove:
    - learning skills (already removed, players didn't want to make plans and decide between faster SP NOW/more SP OVERALL),
    - learning implants (players don't want to pvp with implants and don't want to plan accordingly. they WANT IT NOW)
    - jump clone timers (players don't want to wait and plan, thay WANT IT NOW)
    - remaps (players will not want to wait timers, they will WANT IT NOW)
    - what's next?


    As usual, you don't actually get what this whole argument is about.

    just say i'm right and it makes you sad. And we finish here.

    The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
    Domanique Altares
    Rifterlings
    #126 - 2013-05-13 17:49:26 UTC
    Destination SkillQueue wrote:
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    ITT: BSers BSing that learning implants are why they don't PvP.

    Remove learning implants, and these people still won't PvP. They weren't PvPing before they put the implants in. Remove jump clone timers, and they still won't PvP. Remove jump clones and they definitely won't PvP.

    This has been a long standing gripe with pretty much everyone from your highsec carebears to goonswarm advocating a change to the current situation for various reasons. Everyone of them is well aware of their negative impact to PvP participation though. Changing the situation doesn't mean everyone will PvP. It just means PvP will happen more often then it does now.


    They actually have no impact whatsoever on PvP participation. People's own hangups have an impact, however.

    Characters are not born with implants. People choose to install them because they want more SP faster, or they want highly upgraded abilities. Their penalty is that they may be out some isk if they lose their pod.

    Some people fly Daredevils, when an assault frigate would suit them just fine. If they lose it, they're out in some cases almost five times the cost for the hull alone. But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP. It's a choice, like anything else.

    There are people that fly what they can afford to lose, and people that make decisions to limit themselves artificially. Both are playing the game exactly how they want to be playing it.
    March rabbit
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #127 - 2013-05-13 17:49:31 UTC
    Destination SkillQueue wrote:

    Their reduced enjoyment of the game will also mean more likelyhood of them stopping to pay for the game, which is a reason CCP might care for the issue. Improving the system doesn't do harm for the game either, so I'm not sure why some people are so deadset on defending the statusquo. I understand people disagreeing on the specific method used to improve the situation, since they have their downsides or don't go far enough, but to actively oppose getting more people to participate in PvP instead of just logging off in frustration is something I don't get.

    it's easy: people NEED to have reasons TO NOT PVP.
    Now they have learning implants, JC timers... CCP fix it, ok.
    Now they have "too expensive medical clones". CCP fix it, ok.
    Now they have XXXX. CCP needs to fix it.
    ...
    ,,,

    The real thing is: some people do risk and PvP, some don't. Those who do not have a lot of reasons why they do not do it. And whatever you can do they WILL have something which prevents them from PvP. So this way is way to nowhere from start.

    I'm all for improving the game. But these things like learning skills/learning implants/JC timers/clone prices don't hurt me at all. Anf they have never prevented me from getting fun where i can. And i know LOTS of people do this way. So CCP better spends their effort in other areas of the game. This is my point.

    The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #128 - 2013-05-13 17:54:53 UTC
    Roime wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:

    And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
    That's what makes this a problem.


    Not really, there is no lack of targets in this game.

    Some people feel that fights should be made fair and argue that arenas would increase PVP. Others feel that full loot is too harsh, and if they could keep their shinies after defeat there would be more PVP. Others feel that blobs are unfair, and introducing hardcoded fleet size restrictions would increase PVP.

    And so on. I would but, I would if, while all the time others just do it.

    Should these personal problems be used as basis for game design changes?





    All of these things would minimize the value of PVP, regardless of whether there would be more PVP or not.
    Allowing people to switch implant sets while docked does not.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Brooks Puuntai
    Solar Nexus.
    #129 - 2013-05-13 17:55:34 UTC
    Learning skills weren't removed for PVP reasons, they where removed because they where redundant.

    CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #130 - 2013-05-13 17:56:16 UTC
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP.

    You can bet they would if you couldn't change ships or fits more than once every 24 hours.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Zephyrial
    Zephyr Corp
    #131 - 2013-05-13 17:58:05 UTC
    Ah, the giggles....

    So, +5 implants are on par with AFK cloakers...both are psychologically damaging Big smile
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #132 - 2013-05-13 17:59:29 UTC
    Zephyrial wrote:
    Ah, the giggles....

    So, +5 implants are on par with AFK cloakers...both are psychologically damaging Big smile

    I see you're still on page one.
    Most of us are past that point.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Zephyrial
    Zephyr Corp
    #133 - 2013-05-13 18:10:02 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Zephyrial wrote:
    Ah, the giggles....

    So, +5 implants are on par with AFK cloakers...both are psychologically damaging Big smile

    I see you're still on page one.
    Most of us are past that point.


    No, it is just that this affects so few players it isn't really pertinent, imho. Most everyone that I know that PvPs on a regular basis has two accounts - one for PvP and one for non-PvP. I suspect that there number of people pushed to get an extra account will be ballpark the same as those that un-sub due to not being able to handle PvPing in their implants or waiting out a timer.

    I would like to see the clone timer changed to 22 or 23 hours to see it on a one day cycle, but no biggie.
    Domanique Altares
    Rifterlings
    #134 - 2013-05-13 18:11:18 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP.

    You can bet they would if you couldn't change ships or fits more than once every 24 hours.


    No they wouldn't. Because the risk is the same, regardless of timers. You undock something expensive, you might lose it.

    See, I can read behind OP's nonsense. It really has nothing to do with jump clones. It has to do with the fact that he made a conscious choice to fill his head full of expensive crap, and now must pay a penalty for it. It's obvious that his skill queue is far more important to him than PvP, or he would jump clone and get on with it. He's playing the game exactly like he wants.

    Just like the Daredevil pilot who takes it out and loses it, and the Daredevil owner who will never undock it for fear of losing it. One accepts the ramifications of their high-cost decision and plays, the other allows their fear of what might happen to rule them.
    Six Six Six
    Doomheim
    #135 - 2013-05-13 18:12:02 UTC
    Domanique Altares wrote:

    They actually have no impact whatsoever on PvP participation. People's own hangups have an impact, however.

    Characters are not born with implants. People choose to install them because they want more SP faster, or they want highly upgraded abilities. Their penalty is that they may be out some isk if they lose their pod.

    Some people fly Daredevils, when an assault frigate would suit them just fine. If they lose it, they're out in some cases almost five times the cost for the hull alone. But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP. It's a choice, like anything else.

    There are people that fly what they can afford to lose, and people that make decisions to limit themselves artificially. Both are playing the game exactly how they want to be playing it.



    Same old argument as the learning skills, it's a choice if people want to invest time in training learning skills or not.

    But the fact is learning enhancement implants do prevent people from PvPing and exploring in more hostile regions, for various reasons, including they can't afford to lose the learning enhancement implants, they have no access to jump clones so are stuck with the learning enhancement implants.

    It's human nature to do things in the most efficient way so there is no real choice as to if you want learning enhancement implants fitted or not (which was also part of the argument on removal of the learning skills). That's a luxury when you've been playing the game for a long time and no longer care too much about training.
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #136 - 2013-05-13 18:16:00 UTC
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP.

    You can bet they would if you couldn't change ships or fits more than once every 24 hours.


    No they wouldn't. Because the risk is the same, regardless of timers. You undock something expensive, you might lose it.

    Exactly. The only alternative is not to undock at all.
    Now you see the problem.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Domanique Altares
    Rifterlings
    #137 - 2013-05-13 18:21:15 UTC
    Six Six Six wrote:


    It's human nature to do things in the most efficient way so there is no real choice as to if you want learning enhancement implants fitted or not


    Is that what they're teaching in the Republic Military School?

    I've spent less than half my limited time in this game with a set of learning implants in. My +4s are gathering dust in Rens, because the only time I spend in that clone is when I go up to shop and set up a jump freighter contract.

    My purpose in this game is to garner enjoyment from playing it. I don't get a high hard one from seeing my skillpoints tick faster and faster the more isk I stick in my skull.
    Domanique Altares
    Rifterlings
    #138 - 2013-05-13 18:22:35 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP.

    You can bet they would if you couldn't change ships or fits more than once every 24 hours.


    No they wouldn't. Because the risk is the same, regardless of timers. You undock something expensive, you might lose it.

    Exactly. The only alternative is not to undock at all.
    Now you see the problem.


    I don't actually see any problem.

    The alternatives are already to undock, or to not undock.

    The question is whether or not that's motivated by lack of time, or lack of fortitude.
    Six Six Six
    Doomheim
    #139 - 2013-05-13 18:26:00 UTC
    Domanique Altares wrote:
    Six Six Six wrote:


    It's human nature to do things in the most efficient way so there is no real choice as to if you want learning enhancement implants fitted or not


    Is that what they're teaching in the Republic Military School?

    I've spent less than half my limited time in this game with a set of learning implants in. My +4s are gathering dust in Rens, because the only time I spend in that clone is when I go up to shop and set up a jump freighter contract.

    My purpose in this game is to garner enjoyment from playing it. I don't get a high hard one from seeing my skillpoints tick faster and faster the more isk I stick in my skull.




    Yeah, because you're at that point that you don't care any longer as you have most of what you need trained, for what you're doing.
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #140 - 2013-05-13 18:29:14 UTC
    Problems with the JC mechanic set aside, i think this: People who don't do certain things (like pvp) because they don't want to lose an advantage they aquired by choice simply don't want to do that think (like pvp) in the 1st place.

    Someone who really wants to pvp (but doesn't want to lose a lot of isk pvping) won't put +5 implants into a pvp toon's brain, period. They'll use cheaper implants , because EVE players don't Brain what they can't afford to lose.i

    While I'd personally welcome a reduction in the time between jump cloning, I'm not convinced that catering to people who dislike paying the price of their own tradeoffs is a good way forward.

    It's not the same thing as the escalating clone costs (which a i do feel is detrimental to people who want to pvp, a high SP toon's clone will cost more than many actual space ships). With the escalating clone cost, the only 2 options you have are "don't pvp" or "stop training at a certain point". Neither are good choices.

    But with implants, you can simply choose less expensive implants or no implants at all and simply delay gratification on skill training a bit. I can see the validity to the slippery slope argument in this case, if you start taking away consequences now, the next generation of player (who didn't experience the original consequences) will want even more changes to enhance their comfort.