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The only thing that stops me playing - Jump clone timers.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#101 - 2013-05-13 16:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
March rabbi wrote:
replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....
…you're comparing a meaningless meta-mechanic that everyone with an ounce of sense recognised should never have been in the game (which is why they were removed) to a mechanic that weighs different pros and cons against each other, but where one pro has gained an unhealthy prominence in the minds of many players and has an unfortunate tie to a different important character stat: money.

So it's not really a worth-while comparison.
Quote:
- learning skills (already removed, players didn't want to make plans and decide between faster SP NOW/more SP OVERALL),
…except that that was never the reason they were removed, so your entire reasoning is fallacious from start to finish.
Jose Black
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-05-13 16:07:35 UTC
Ikasha Aurilen wrote:
The only thing that stops me playing

Farewell then!

And please don't forget to give your stuff to someone that could make good use of it.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#103 - 2013-05-13 16:14:32 UTC
Timerless jump clones available in the same station only (maybe for a fee, say 1 to 5 million isk per switch, depending on SP).

The 24 hour cool down bugs me quite a lot too, even though I can afford to jump into a +3 clone on my primary attributes, it's significantly more problematic for a newish player who's just got his set of +4s and is looking down the barrel of 6 months training just to get competent.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2013-05-13 16:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Roime - "I don't have a problem with the current system, therefore there are no problems with the current system."


James Amril-Kesh - "I have a problem with the current system, therefore there is a problem with the current system."

Really, it's the same as saying that Vindicator prices prevent people from PVPing.

You have to ask yourselves what it is exactly that you want to do in this game- is it more important for you to min/max your SP, or play the game?

We all know that training characters requires nothing more than injecting skillbooks and keeping the queue full. But cool, if that's what you prefer then just stay docked up in hisec and wear +5s and optimize.

.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2013-05-13 16:39:21 UTC
I guess I'll just consolidate some of my points here:

  • You can't just allow timerless clones within the same station. This in combination with changing med clone stations leads to abuse.
  • For the same reason, you can't just allow players to unplug their implants.
  • You can't shorten the JC timer (except by a small amount of less than one hour to avoid the issue of having the end of the timer get continually pushed back every day) because that causes the same problems with fast travel that CCP wants to avoid.
  • Removing learning implants entirely isn't a solution because there are definite pros to the system that need not be negated.
  • Learning boosters are an interesting idea but pose problems of their own, such as removing the ISK sink of implants (as I doubt CCP is inclined to introduce any additional items into the game that are NPC sold) and requiring a lot of work to develop for questionable benefit

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-05-13 16:45:56 UTC
Roime wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Roime - "I don't have a problem with the current system, therefore there are no problems with the current system."


James Amril-Kesh - "I have a problem with the current system, therefore there is a problem with the current system."

Really, it's the same as saying that Vindicator prices prevent people from PVPing.

You have to ask yourselves what it is exactly that you want to do in this game- is it more important for you to min/max your SP, or play the game?

We all know that training characters requires nothing more than injecting skillbooks and keeping the queue full. But cool, if that's what you prefer then just stay docked up in hisec and wear +5s and optimize.

Are there players who keep clones for PVP and clones for learning, who switch to learning clones after they're done with a day of PVP, and don't join fleets for at least 24 hours afterward because they're unable to leave their learning clone?
The answer is yes, and there are quite a few of these players out there.
Regardless of whether this is their own psychological issue or not, this behavior is damaging to gameplay

People are fine with the costs of ships, modules, etc. because that's a possible loss that people accept when they go to PVP. They accept it because these modules or ships contribute to some extent. Learning implants don't.

Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-05-13 16:56:08 UTC
Or, probably a much more pertinent question: what benefit does EVE gain from forcing players to be stuck in their implant sets for 24 hours at a time (unless of course they either get podded or they forcefully unplug and destroy the implants themselves)?

Why is this a better system than allowing players to switch out their implants or clones more regularly?
Why should the best learning implants in the game be reserved for those that never risk them?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#108 - 2013-05-13 17:06:15 UTC
No sympathy for people who think they have to have half a billion ISK in their brains to train skills.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#109 - 2013-05-13 17:09:11 UTC
ITT: BSers BSing that learning implants are why they don't PvP.

Remove learning implants, and these people still won't PvP. They weren't PvPing before they put the implants in. Remove jump clone timers, and they still won't PvP. Remove jump clones and they definitely won't PvP.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#110 - 2013-05-13 17:13:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Or, probably a much more pertinent question: what benefit does EVE gain from forcing players to be stuck in their implant sets for 24 hours at a time (unless of course they either get podded or they forcefully unplug and destroy the implants themselves)?


What benefit did EVE get before there were jump clones, and they were 'forced' to be in them all the time, period, until they were podded, or tore them out and destroyed them?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2013-05-13 17:17:24 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Or, probably a much more pertinent question: what benefit does EVE gain from forcing players to be stuck in their implant sets for 24 hours at a time (unless of course they either get podded or they forcefully unplug and destroy the implants themselves)?


What benefit did EVE get before there were jump clones, and they were 'forced' to be in them all the time, period, until they were podded, or tore them out and destroyed them?

Less than now.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#112 - 2013-05-13 17:19:23 UTC
Remove learning implants from the game and increase the base rate as if you have +3s or +4s fitted.

That way you won't need to use jump clones just to train, would probably get more people to PvP too, as learning implants won't factor into the loses anymore.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#113 - 2013-05-13 17:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Regardless of whether this is their own psychological issue or not, this behavior is damaging to gameplay

People are fine with the costs of ships, modules, etc. because that's a possible loss that people accept when they go to PVP. They accept it because these modules or ships contribute to some extent. Learning implants don't.

Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?


Their psychological issues are damaging to their gameplay.

I don't need other clones than the medical one, and I don't wear implants that would limit my choices. Because doing so would make zero sense.

Quote:
Or, probably a much more pertinent question: what benefit does EVE gain from forcing players to be stuck in their implant sets for 24 hours at a time (unless of course they either get podded or they forcefully unplug and destroy the implants themselves)?

Why is this a better system than allowing players to switch out their implants or clones more regularly?
Why should the best learning implants in the game be reserved for those that never risk them?


Your question is invalid- EVE does not force players to be stuck in their implant sets.

Current system emphasizes specialization, choices and consequences. Stuff that is integral to this game.

Best implants are not reserved for people that never risk them. Anyone with the skills and isk can buy and use them.

Rest is all psychology, not game mechanics.


EDIT: EVE gives players the option to use training implants to speed up training. EVE gives the option to install jump clones with different implant sets. These options aren't free and without consequences, but you have the options.

.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#114 - 2013-05-13 17:27:36 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
ITT: BSers BSing that learning implants are why they don't PvP.

Remove learning implants, and these people still won't PvP. They weren't PvPing before they put the implants in. Remove jump clone timers, and they still won't PvP. Remove jump clones and they definitely won't PvP.

This has been a long standing gripe with pretty much everyone from your highsec carebears to goonswarm advocating a change to the current situation for various reasons. Everyone of them is well aware of their negative impact to PvP participation though. Changing the situation doesn't mean everyone will PvP. It just means PvP will happen more often then it does now.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2013-05-13 17:27:38 UTC
Roime wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Regardless of whether this is their own psychological issue or not, this behavior is damaging to gameplay

People are fine with the costs of ships, modules, etc. because that's a possible loss that people accept when they go to PVP. They accept it because these modules or ships contribute to some extent. Learning implants don't.

Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?


Their psychological issues are damaging to their gameplay.

And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
That's what makes this a problem.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2013-05-13 17:28:05 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Remove learning implants from the game and increase the base rate as if you have +3s or +4s fitted.

That way you won't need to use jump clones just to train, would probably get more people to PvP too, as learning implants won't factor into the loses anymore.



You would have to increase the attributes by 5 or all the people who already have +5 implants would occupy jita for months.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#117 - 2013-05-13 17:28:18 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

  • Learning boosters are an interesting idea but pose problems of their own, such as removing the ISK sink of implants (as I doubt CCP is inclined to introduce any additional items into the game that are NPC sold) and requiring a lot of work to develop for questionable benefit
    • [/list]


    I still believe this is the best idea. Remove learning implants or all implants for that matter and switch to a multi-day booster. It wouldn't need to be NPC seeded, and if you add BPCs for pirate factions/FW could still work as a sink. Not to mention expand low sec's gas cloud capabilities to not only help drive traffic but give more incentive to live in low.

    There are flaws to every idea and with the current mechanic. While a switch to boosters would be annoying, it has more overall benefits then downsides, in comparison to the current system or just reducing JC timer.

    CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
    March rabbit
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #118 - 2013-05-13 17:32:04 UTC
    Tippia wrote:
    March rabbi wrote:
    replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....
    …you're comparing a meaningless meta-mechanic that everyone with an ounce of sense recognised should never have been in the game (which is why they were removed)...

    translation:
    i don't want to see so you won't show me.

    thanks. i understand your point

    just few keywords (in case someone would care): EveMon, skill training plan.

    The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
    Haulie Berry
    #119 - 2013-05-13 17:34:43 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:


    Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?


    I don't consider being forced to make that decision to be "damaging to gameplay".

    I WOULD consider trivializing that decision to be damaging to gameplay.
    Destination SkillQueue
    Doomheim
    #120 - 2013-05-13 17:35:52 UTC
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:
    Roime wrote:
    James Amril-Kesh wrote:

    Regardless of whether this is their own psychological issue or not, this behavior is damaging to gameplay

    People are fine with the costs of ships, modules, etc. because that's a possible loss that people accept when they go to PVP. They accept it because these modules or ships contribute to some extent. Learning implants don't.

    Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?


    Their psychological issues are damaging to their gameplay.

    And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
    That's what makes this a problem.

    Their reduced enjoyment of the game will also mean more likelyhood of them stopping to pay for the game, which is a reason CCP might care for the issue. Improving the system doesn't do harm for the game either, so I'm not sure why some people are so deadset on defending the statusquo. I understand people disagreeing on the specific method used to improve the situation, since they have their downsides or don't go far enough, but to actively oppose getting more people to participate in PvP instead of just logging off in frustration is something I don't get.