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Midular shooter identified, appears in court
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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-05-12 09:28:47 UTC
Darius Shakor wrote:
If you want me to say it then, yes, I agree they were stupid to do so. Though even without that the damage was being done by your government being completely obstinate. I doubt, though, you will agree. Why waste my breath further.

No. You don't get to do this. You don't get to spit in the face of all the work the Federation has done over the years to help the Minmatar people reclaim their dignity and become a self-sufficient international power, send hostile military forces into our sovereign territory, kill thousands of Navy crewmen aboard starships crewed by officers who gave your forces ample opportunity to retreat without violence and then tell us it's our government's fault for not sharing enough information.

If you continue to maintain that after all this time, the Federation have learnt nothing about the Minmatar, then let me retort that the Minmatar have clearly learned nothing about the Federation. We allowed the unsanctioned and illegal entry of hostile warships into our space to go unanswered once before - never again.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Denak Calamari
Incorruptibles
#22 - 2013-05-12 09:48:35 UTC
Why do we have to argue if the Matari or the Gallenteans are more at fault in this whole farse? As Grideris said, the most likely reason the identity was kept secret to make sure no allies or co-conspirators would disappear before the investigation was done. In my honest opinion both the Republic and the Federation are at fault here, and blaming either side isn't going to help anyone. All these Black Eagle conspiracies are also ******* stupid, because when was breaking the trust of your own ally was ever a good idea?

But anyway, I am glad his identity finally came public, and I hope he gets a fair trial and is punished accordingly.
Tootenh'amon
#23 - 2013-05-12 09:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tootenh'amon
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Darius Shakor wrote:
If you want me to say it then, yes, I agree they were stupid to do so. Though even without that the damage was being done by your government being completely obstinate. I doubt, though, you will agree. Why waste my breath further.

No. You don't get to do this. You don't get to spit in the face of all the work the Federation has done over the years to help the Minmatar people reclaim their dignity and become a self-sufficient international power, send hostile military forces into our sovereign territory, kill thousands of Navy crewmen aboard starships crewed by officers who gave your forces ample opportunity to retreat without violence and then tell us it's our government's fault for not sharing enough information.


Funny, for the Federation owes much of what it is now to Minmatar immigrant workforce. What you're saying only proves one point: you believe the Republic has to be greatful enough to the Federation not to make any noise when it comes to significant issues of foreign policy. There go all the ideas of the Gallente selflessly helping someone out of the goodness of their heart. The Republic isn't and never will be a Federation colony. We've had to bow before one empire before.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-05-12 09:54:37 UTC
Tootenh'amon wrote:
you believe the Republic has to be greatful enough to the Federation not to make any noise when it comes to significant issues of foreign policy.

No, I believe that you can be as grateful or ungrateful as you want, but I also believe that you don't get to whine about our lack of respect for your culture after invading us.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Tootenh'amon
#25 - 2013-05-12 10:05:08 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:
you believe the Republic has to be greatful enough to the Federation not to make any noise when it comes to significant issues of foreign policy.

No, I believe that you can be as grateful or ungrateful as you want, but I also believe that you don't get to whine about our lack of respect for your culture after invading us.


What does one have to do with the other? If you really knew our culture you'd know that our leaders won't take lightly to being slapped in the face with a big fat "no". If you really do know us, than it means you knew full well what would happen at Colelie. Then the whole incident looks like a ploy to push Republic away from the Federation, for whatever reason. I wonder what were the crew complements of the Moroses destroyed in that battle and how many Minmatar actually perished in the destruction of your fleet...
Darius Shakor
Second Shakor Clan
#26 - 2013-05-12 10:05:20 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Darius Shakor wrote:
If you want me to say it then, yes, I agree they were stupid to do so. Though even without that the damage was being done by your government being completely obstinate. I doubt, though, you will agree. Why waste my breath further.

No. You don't get to do this. You don't get to spit in the face of all the work the Federation has done over the years to help the Minmatar people reclaim their dignity and become a self-sufficient international power, send hostile military forces into our sovereign territory, kill thousands of Navy crewmen aboard starships crewed by officers who gave your forces ample opportunity to retreat without violence and then tell us it's our government's fault for not sharing enough information.

If you continue to maintain that after all this time, the Federation have learnt nothing about the Minmatar, then let me retort that the Minmatar have clearly learned nothing about the Federation. We allowed the unsanctioned and illegal entry of hostile warships into our space to go unanswered once before - never again.


Odd, I am the second Minmatar you have told what we cannot do. So tell me, what can I do?

Oh wait, that is not your call! Let me tell you about never again, Gallente. Never again is being told by people with a lofty opinion of their cultural superiority what we are allowed to do. Never presume to tell me or another Minmatar what opinions we should have. Never.

With that said, I am not trying to recover any high ground on my people's behalf. The fleet have dug us all a very big hole we have to climb out of. Don't even think for one minute that we are not now allowed to at least try and climb out of it by admitting that our fleet and the Tribal Assembly have some fault in this. That is nothing more than being humble and I would thank you for not throwing that back in my face.

Or am I supposed to sit here and just spout completely anti-Gallente sentiments because that is easier for you to deal with? I should maybe just point the finger entirely at your people at this point in time and admit no wrong on our part. And then you can do the same, and admit no wrong on your government's part. Because that is really how we progress past this, isn't it?

I am willing to budge a little on my opinion of the current situation. Clearly, you and your kind are not.

Darius Shakor - Kacha

Vandeamon Writing Project - EVE Works
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#27 - 2013-05-12 10:12:09 UTC
Darius Shakor wrote:
I am willing to budge a little on my opinion of the current situation. Clearly, you and your kind are not.


Don't worry about Andreus Ixiris.

He's just bent out of shape that the Blood Raiders didn't want his help in sacrificing women and children on their altars.

Cos that's what he offered to help with.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-05-12 10:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zsaryna Adrelana
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:
you believe the Republic has to be greatful enough to the Federation not to make any noise when it comes to significant issues of foreign policy.

No, I believe that you can be as grateful or ungrateful as you want, but I also believe that you don't get to whine about our lack of respect for your culture after invading us.


What does one have to do with the other? If you really knew our culture you'd know that our leaders won't take lightly to being slapped in the face with a big fat "no". If you really do know us, than it means you knew full well what would happen at Colelie. Then the whole incident looks like a ploy to push Republic away from the Federation, for whatever reason. I wonder what were the crew complements of the Moroses destroyed in that battle and how many Minmatar actually perished in the destruction of your fleet...


Congratulations you have just reduced the entire Minmatar race to a toddler having a tantrum. He's being told "no you cannot have your ball" and so he's hurling his toys out of the pram. The difference is that the toddler is not expected to know better and the toddler does not have control of dreadnought type assets. Everyone has to deal with being told "no" now and again, and mature reasonable people can move past that and compromise, or failing that, say "okay, but next time you want to trade with us, taxes on your imports will be higher" there should be a much longer path to escalating to the use of Autocannon for diplomacy
Clearly we may be expecting too much of Shakor and his cabinet.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Tootenh'amon
#29 - 2013-05-12 10:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tootenh'amon
Louella Dougans wrote:
Darius Shakor wrote:
I am willing to budge a little on my opinion of the current situation. Clearly, you and your kind are not.


Don't worry about Andreus Ixiris.

He's just bent out of shape that the Blood Raiders didn't want his help in sacrificing women and children on their altars.

Cos that's what he offered to help with.



The levels some people will stoop to Sad

Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:

Congratulations you have just reduced the entire Minmatar race to a toddler having a tantrum. He's being told "no you cannot have your ball" and so he's hurling his toys out of the pram. The difference is that the toddler is not expected to know better and the toddler does not have control of dreadnought type assets. Everyone has to deal with being told "no" now and again, and mature reasonable people can move past that and compromise, or failing that, say "okay, but next time you want to trade with us, taxes on your imports will be higher" there should be a much longer path to escalating to the use of Autocannon for diplomacy
Clearly we may be expecting too much of Shakor and his cabinet.


A lesson about learning the meaning of "no" comming from an Amarrian. Now that's something you don't see every day...
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#30 - 2013-05-12 10:18:59 UTC
I find myself completely in agreement with Darius Shakor and willing to state so in public without any feelings of resentment.

The universe has truly gone mad.

Else
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-05-12 10:19:54 UTC
Darius Shakor wrote:
Odd, I am the second Minmatar you have told what we cannot do. So tell me, what can I do?

Oh wait, that is not your call! Let me tell you about never again, Gallente. Never again is being told by people with a lofty opinion of their cultural superiority what we are allowed to do. Never presume to tell me or another Minmatar what opinions we should have. Never.

I'll presume to do whatever the **** I please, and if you feel particularly strongly that I shouldn't be doing something you may register your displeasure with me in person.

Darius Shakor wrote:
With that said, I am not trying to recover any high ground on my people's behalf. The fleet have dug us all a very big hole we have to climb out of. Don't even think for one minute that we are not now allowed to at least try and climb out of it by admitting that our fleet and the Tribal Assembly have some fault in this. That is nothing more than being humble and I would thank you for not throwing that back in my face.

That's very gracious of you, but the fact is there's a hell of a lot of fault being implied on the part of the Federation where very little actually exists. This was a crime committed on Federation territory against a large number of Federation citizens and one important foreign dignitary by a man we now know to have been a Federation national. If the Ray of Matar had not been involved in this atrocity the Republic would have had no diplomatic stake in the matter whatsoever. The fact that it was a tribal leader and a person of vast spiritual significance to the Minmatar was deeply tragic, but it certainly doesn't automatically give the Republic the right to the extradition of the criminal to their territory, nor is the Republic best served by the release of partial information on the shooter if it means potential collaborators could go to ground.

Perhaps the Federal government could have intimated the possibility of collaborators or the need to complete a thorough investigation more clearly but there is definitely not an equality of fault here.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#32 - 2013-05-12 10:29:42 UTC
Quote:
If the Ray of Matar had not been involved in this atrocity the Republic would have had no diplomatic stake in the matter whatsoever.

You choose to conveniently forget the fact that the other victims where members of the tribes too, and also the fact that this was a crime committed with a motive against the tribes specifically. That makes it the Republic's business, like it or not. I am quite fine with negotiating with the Federation about how this should be handled, considering that laws and traditions conflict. The categorical denial that we even have a stake is offensive, however, and serves only as further provocation.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Sebiestor Tribe
Tootenh'amon
#33 - 2013-05-12 10:35:19 UTC
Quote:
If the Ray of Matar had not been involved in this atrocity the Republic would have had no diplomatic stake in the matter whatsoever.


Have you no sense of decency? 58 dead, 304 wounded, many of them Minmatar. I'd say that's still a pretty big reason to have an interest in the shooter. If you think we value the lives of our people so little, you really don't get our culture.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-05-12 10:41:47 UTC
58 dead and 304 wounded?
You call that a big deal?
I'd hate to think how big a deal you consider the loss of a capital fleet, considering most Capsuleers turn in those kind of bodycounts every time we turn around.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Tootenh'amon
#35 - 2013-05-12 10:46:29 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
58 dead and 304 wounded?
You call that a big deal?
I'd hate to think how big a deal you consider the loss of a capital fleet, considering most Capsuleers turn in those kind of bodycounts every time we turn around.


Yes, such loss of civilian life is a big deal. To some people at least.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-05-12 10:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zsaryna Adrelana
Clearly.
I turned in those kind of numbers last time I farted so there we go. Civilian casualties mean more to some people than others, as you say.
Yet in response you're willing to unleash a dreadnought fleet which is over a thousand men per boat, and they all get taken out with no real return on investment?
That's got to suck hard

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Tootenh'amon
#37 - 2013-05-12 10:56:43 UTC
I'm not going to discuss with you about questions of humanitarianism, as it appears you don't grasp its basics, nor about honor you know even less of.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-05-12 11:21:47 UTC
Sure, go for a personal attack I don't care.
But unlike some, I like to keep my jabs above the belt so I will say this.
Given the current state of the Republic, can you really afford to throw away billions of isk for fifty dead and three hundred and something wounded? I think you'll agree the answer there is no.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-05-12 11:23:16 UTC
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Have you no sense of decency? 58 dead, 304 wounded, many of them Minmatar. I'd say that's still a pretty big reason to have an interest in the shooter. If you think we value the lives of our people so little, you really don't get our culture.

58 dead, 304 wounded, all of whom - with the exception of Karin Midular - were Federal citizens. So yes, the Minmatar would certainly have had social stake in the matter, but not a diplomatic one. The fact that one of the victims was a foreign dignitary most certainly does give you a diplomatic stake in the matter.

It does not give you carté blanche to invade our sovereign territory, kill our navymen and then blame us for not being forthcoming enough for your tastes.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Tootenh'amon
#40 - 2013-05-12 11:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tootenh'amon
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Tootenh'amon wrote:
Have you no sense of decency? 58 dead, 304 wounded, many of them Minmatar. I'd say that's still a pretty big reason to have an interest in the shooter. If you think we value the lives of our people so little, you really don't get our culture.

58 dead, 304 wounded, all of whom - with the exception of Karin Midular - were Federal citizens.



Perhaps you should watch the re-runs of news reports.


Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Sure, go for a personal attack I don't care.
But unlike some, I like to keep my jabs above the belt so I will say this.
Given the current state of the Republic, can you really afford to throw away billions of isk for fifty dead and three hundred and something wounded? I think you'll agree the answer there is no.


The cost may have been high, but the cost of doing nothing and letting everyone run circles around us would've been even higher. Besides, whoever planned the operation didn't orchestrate an invasion. He or she sent a determined force after a murderer. I can only speculate, but I'd say losing 15 dreadnaughts wasn't the designed effect.