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The creation of efficient missile pirate battleship based on Rattlesnake
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Van De Helsing
Bloody Entertainment
Fanatic Legion.
#1 - 2013-05-11 20:46:54 UTC
Good afternoon!

There is less than one month before new Odyssey expansion introduction and that means that battleships will be rebalanced. First T1 battleships will be changed, than Navy Faction and Pirate Faction ships. Let’s take into consideration, the fact that Rattlesnake has the smallest size among pirate battleships and that it is very slow and rather heavy ship at the same time with mixed weapons (drones and missiles), that are both not very efficient. Also we remember that there is no specialized missile pirate battleship in the game. Therefore I would like to propose the following changes in Rattlesnake attributes and bonuses that can be made during faction pirate battleships rebalance:

Special Ability: 50% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo velocity

Change to:

Special Ability: 25% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage and rate of fire

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level

Change to:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% decrease of explosions radius for Cruise Missiles and Torpedo per level

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level

Change to:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% increase of velocity and explosion velocity for Cruise Missiles and Torpedo per level

Slot layout: 7H(+1), 7M, 5L(-1); 0 turrets , 6(+2) launchers
Fittings: 10400 PWG(+400), 750(+40) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 14000(+1250) / 9000(-298) / 9000 (-962)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second): 5500(+188) / 1087s(-67,88) / 5.06(+0,46)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 170(+76) / 0.228(+0.1) / 88000000(-11300000) / 10s (-7.6s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 130(+30) / 7
Sensor strength: 30 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 400(-60)

I suppose that this changes will make Rattlesnake into efficient pirate missile battleship. Besides I’m sure that is changes are of great current interest because of the deficiency of such ship at the moment.

Best regards,
Van De Helsing
Linkxsc162534
Apollo United Systems
#2 - 2013-05-11 21:37:49 UTC
It would be nice to have a pirate missile missioning Battleship. But I'm fairly certain most of us are pretty fine with the Rattler right where it is (lots of tank, and moderate dps)

Rather then changing the existing rattler. There are other factions out there that might field a ship. Noone says they need to be pirate persay. Mordu's legion would be believable for running a caldari/gallante ship with a missile focus.
About a half dozen other factions could also field their own ships (Ammatar Mandate, Khanid Kingdom, Syndicate, Thukker Tribe) Perhaps not exactly equal to pirate ships, but they could fill in the wholes in ship versions
Theres no pirate rokh, hyperion, abaddon, maelstom models. Also similarly they could fill in more pirate versions for cruisers and frigs. Would really like a faction condor or kestrel myself.
Iwan Katkoff
PROTOGEN fleet
Macabric Trick
#3 - 2013-05-13 08:57:56 UTC
Van De Helsing wrote:
Good afternoon!

There is less than one month before new Odyssey expansion introduction and that means that battleships will be rebalanced. First T1 battleships will be changed, than Navy Faction and Pirate Faction ships. Let’s take into consideration, the fact that Rattlesnake has the smallest size among pirate battleships and that it is very slow and rather heavy ship at the same time with mixed weapons (drones and missiles), that are both not very efficient. Also we remember that there is no specialized missile pirate battleship in the game. Therefore I would like to propose the following changes in Rattlesnake attributes and bonuses that can be made during faction pirate battleships rebalance:

Special Ability: 50% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo velocity

Change to:

Special Ability: 25% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage and rate of fire

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level

Change to:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% decrease of explosions radius for Cruise Missiles and Torpedo per level

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level

Change to:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% increase of velocity and explosion velocity for Cruise Missiles and Torpedo per level

Slot layout: 7H(+1), 7M, 5L(-1); 0 turrets , 6(+2) launchers
Fittings: 10400 PWG(+400), 750(+40) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 14000(+1250) / 9000(-298) / 9000 (-962)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second): 5500(+188) / 1087s(-67,88) / 5.06(+0,46)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 170(+76) / 0.228(+0.1) / 88000000(-11300000) / 10s (-7.6s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 130(+30) / 7
Sensor strength: 30 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 400(-60)

I suppose that this changes will make Rattlesnake into efficient pirate missile battleship. Besides I’m sure that is changes are of great current interest because of the deficiency of such ship at the moment.

Best regards,
Van De Helsing



Totally agree, but it is only a nerf and nerf (((
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
The Initiative.
#4 - 2013-05-13 09:08:35 UTC
No.

Its the only pirate battleship droneboat, leave it as it is and get a SNI if you want a missile boat.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#5 - 2013-05-13 09:14:00 UTC
why? why should there be a pure missile pirate battleship?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-05-13 09:31:22 UTC
You leave my rattlesnake alone. >:[


Seriously though, why would you want to do this? The rattlesnake is fine, very nice passive tank, pretty good DPS and decent damage projection. You want a massive range, tank and utility nerf, and for what? a slightly better navy raven? Is that really worth the removal of the only specialized pirate droneboat?
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#7 - 2013-05-13 09:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Quote:
No.

Its the only pirate battleship droneboat, leave it as it is and get a SNI if you want a missile boat.

And pretty much the best sub cap tank in the game.

However I do agree with swapping the missile range bonus (seriously WTF CCP) for something else to do with missiles like exp radius/dmg but you have it too high at +50% with dmg & RoF combined (which it's actually more than 50% at LvL 5 due to RoF's higher application of dmg).

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Van De Helsing
Bloody Entertainment
Fanatic Legion.
#8 - 2013-05-13 17:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Van De Helsing
Robert Caldera wrote:
why? why should there be a pure missile pirate battleship?


Because there is no such pirate missile battleship now.

DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
No.

Its the only pirate battleship droneboat, leave it as it is and get a SNI if you want a missile boat.

And pretty much the best sub cap tank in the game.

However I do agree with swapping the missile range bonus (seriously WTF CCP) for something else to do with missiles like exp radius/dmg but you have it too high at +50% with dmg & RoF combined (which it's actually more than 50% at LvL 5 due to RoF's higher application of dmg).


Taking into consideration the rebalance of cruise missile in odyssey the dps of such ship will be about 1000 with all 5 lvl skils and 5% implants to missile, thats why bonuses that I suppose are optimal for making Rattlesnake equal to Machariel, Nigthmare and Vindicator.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-05-13 21:21:55 UTC
Van De Helsing wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why? why should there be a pure missile pirate battleship?


Because there is no such pirate missile battleship now.

DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
No.

Its the only pirate battleship droneboat, leave it as it is and get a SNI if you want a missile boat.

And pretty much the best sub cap tank in the game.

However I do agree with swapping the missile range bonus (seriously WTF CCP) for something else to do with missiles like exp radius/dmg but you have it too high at +50% with dmg & RoF combined (which it's actually more than 50% at LvL 5 due to RoF's higher application of dmg).


Taking into consideration the rebalance of cruise missile in odyssey the dps of such ship will be about 1000 with all 5 lvl skils and 5% implants to missile, thats why bonuses that I suppose are optimal for making Rattlesnake equal to Machariel, Nigthmare and Vindicator.




But you can already do a thousand DPS in a rattlesnake with ease. Even with cruise missiles, and that's without any implants.

It's a droneboat. Not a missile boat. Why should that change?
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#10 - 2013-05-13 21:53:45 UTC
Quote:
But you can already do a thousand DPS in a rattlesnake with ease. Even with cruise missiles, and that's without any implants.

It's a droneboat. Not a missile boat. Why should that change?


This. Actually the current ceiling for the RS is about 1130 DPS After Odyssey it'll jump up to a tiny bit over 1200 DPS (all LvL 5's). Those numbers are with Garde II's with (3) Fed Omnis [57km Opt], (4) DDA IIs + (2) CNBCU IIs, T2 Cruise + Rage ammo (yes most don't use T2 missiles in missions, but I can build them pretty cheap so I do), no Imps.

Yes it's paper DPS, Yes it's meant to be a DRONE BOAT, NO it shouldn't have to = the dmg output of the Mach/Vindi/etc as none of them can TANK what the RS can. There is no good reason to have CCP homogenize even more of the game by making all the Pirate BS's do similar DPS/Tank/Speed/etc.

I still think the range to missiles bonus is WTF on the RS though.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-05-13 22:23:36 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
But you can already do a thousand DPS in a rattlesnake with ease. Even with cruise missiles, and that's without any implants.

It's a droneboat. Not a missile boat. Why should that change?


This. Actually the current ceiling for the RS is about 1130 DPS After Odyssey it'll jump up to a tiny bit over 1200 DPS (all LvL 5's). Those numbers are with Garde II's with (3) Fed Omnis [57km Opt], (4) DDA IIs + (2) CNBCU IIs, T2 Cruise + Rage ammo (yes most don't use T2 missiles in missions, but I can build them pretty cheap so I do), no Imps.

Yes it's paper DPS, Yes it's meant to be a DRONE BOAT, NO it shouldn't have to = the dmg output of the Mach/Vindi/etc as none of them can TANK what the RS can. There is no good reason to have CCP homogenize even more of the game by making all the Pirate BS's do similar DPS/Tank/Speed/etc.

I still think the range to missiles bonus is WTF on the RS though.



It's kind of handy with torps, but I use mine for ratting, so <_<
Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2013-05-13 22:26:38 UTC
DONT TOUCH MY RATTLESNAKE!!!!!! NO GET AWAY, THE SCORPION NAVY ISSUE IS THAT WAY ------------->

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-05-13 23:07:08 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
I still think the range to missiles bonus is WTF on the RS though.



replace cruise with torps.

While not happyy with this generic bonus from time time admittedly, torps are the reason for it. The base raw range at level 5 of 30 km's can be nice. Rigs get you out to 43 km's with no falloff damge bleeding. But you deal with the paper DPS aspect of missiles as its downside ofc.

When you roll a megathron (variant) it can be nice. To get the best range for large blasters you have to feed it lots of null. Adds cost to the pve. And play TC games since null hits tracking. . And to in the case of vindi get max web range with web equal to your optimal for max damage run a shiny web (I would anyway). Now vindi at least is is not getting hit too hard with TE nerf. I have seen nice armour fits for it with no TE, many run what to me are some good fits armour and mag stab lows with TC and cap mods mids + web.

mach is not looking so great soon. Its most common fit is TE's and threadbare tank. How its getting TC's on for range...well I will see when it hits tranq (cba to look at sisi solutions). CCC and burst/collision real common rigs as well....if they go ambit to keep the shield tank it should be some interesting times soon for mach. I would say armour tank it to run TC's but that's heresy to some lol.

NM is, to me, a one hit wonder. Its greatness drops off not shooting em rats. But I like versatility. especially since stuck in empire and can't run incursions becasue of time limits. Now if in say delve again I'd be all about it maybe lol.
Linkxsc162534
Apollo United Systems
#14 - 2013-05-13 23:12:27 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
DONT TOUCH MY RATTLESNAKE!!!!!! NO GET AWAY, THE SCORPION NAVY ISSUE IS THAT WAY ------------->


But the SNI is in a nice happy place too. Great tank, good overall DPS based around cruises (which will be getting buffed) and the ability to run a TP for that paper dps problem that so many missile battleships have.

Doesn't have the full dps and tank a rattlesnake can have, but at half the overall cost, and not requiring crosstraining gallante and drones form caldari. Thing does great, actually is practically as good as a CNR, And its nicer to look at. Gotta remember the plusses.
If you wan a pirate or faction missileboat, all i can suggest would be the deriving one into a faction rokh (which i wouldnt mind either, Mainly cause I want a goddman navy abaddon, oh **** and a faction hype/mael)
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#15 - 2013-05-13 23:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Quote:
replace cruise with torps.


Well yeah ofc the bonus is for Torp, but who in their right mind is going to use a Torp fit RS for Missions when you'd have to sacrifice the Drone dmg/tracking/optimal just to fit TP (or 2) and more BCUs. For ratting or any other 99% close range Torp would be the way to go and then the RS does pretty decent dmg. Also, for T2 Torp fit, you have to sacrifice active tank (the RS is AMAZING at active shield) because of CPU issues. You wouldn't be able for ex to run Pith B-Type X-L or better and be stuck with the ultra exp Gist (although it's better cap usage) to still maintain a 3-slot active shield tank. Not that going Gist X-L is a bad thing it just makes you even more of a gank target. I prefer to run my RS at or under 1 bil total, incl hull cost, which is easy with Pith booster.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
commander aze
#16 - 2013-05-14 00:50:17 UTC
the ship you are looking for is the Navy issue Scorpion... there is no reason to remake it... as much as i like pirate ships the one you want exists already as a Navy ship

Commander Aze For CSM XII

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=506400

Support the Community #Broadcast4Reps
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2013-05-14 11:31:22 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
replace cruise with torps.


Well yeah ofc the bonus is for Torp, but who in their right mind is going to use a Torp fit RS for Missions when you'd have to sacrifice the Drone dmg/tracking/optimal just to fit TP (or 2) and more BCUs. For ratting or any other 99% close range Torp would be the way to go and then the RS does pretty decent dmg. Also, for T2 Torp fit, you have to sacrifice active tank (the RS is AMAZING at active shield) because of CPU issues. You wouldn't be able for ex to run Pith B-Type X-L or better and be stuck with the ultra exp Gist (although it's better cap usage) to still maintain a 3-slot active shield tank. Not that going Gist X-L is a bad thing it just makes you even more of a gank target. I prefer to run my RS at or under 1 bil total, incl hull cost, which is easy with Pith booster.



Why on earth would you need deadspace gear to tank missions? Rat specific hardeners and zero effort gives me over 700 DPS passive tank on my ratting RS, which puts out around 900 DPS and that's without even bothering to fit a BCU. If you're running missions, I doubt you even need T2 gear.



Also, has it occurred to you that the snake wasn't balanced around missions to start with?
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#18 - 2013-05-14 11:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Van De Helsing wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why? why should there be a pure missile pirate battleship?


Because there is no such pirate missile battleship now..


well, thats not a valid argument. There is also no minmatar pure projectile pirate battleship, or no gallente pure drone pirate battleship (its drone + missiles = rattlesnake), there is also no caldari pure missile pirate battleship.

Btw. rattlesnake is great, you can still take the SNI, it will kick ass in Odyssey.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#19 - 2013-05-14 11:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
This has to be the worst proposal for a rebalance I've seen. To be honest, the Rattler is good as is, I am fond of the velocity bonus. Makes torps a bit more viable in missions.

But, you do realize it's a drone boat, right? Not a missile boat? And changing it from drones to missiles is blasphemy.

Also allow me to laugh at OP's post regarding "why would you put torps on it"

[Rattlesnake, Dungeon Rattler]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Torpedo
Drone Link Augmentor I
[Empty High slot]

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Warden II x5
Hornet II x5
Vespa II x5
Wasp II x5


That's my mission fit, currently set up for Anti-Serpentis. It does so much DPS I hardly ever have to cycle that ASB. I swap torps to match ship size and required range. And yes, I have popped frigates in this with torps (easily, and with no TP, it's actually funny.)

Try it sometime.

Save the drones!
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#20 - 2013-05-14 11:47:50 UTC
Quote:
Why on earth would you need deadspace gear to tank missions? Rat specific hardeners and zero effort gives me over 700 DPS passive tank on my ratting RS, which puts out around 900 DPS and that's without even bothering to fit a BCU. If you're running missions, I doubt you even need T2 gear.


The T2 X-L Shield Booster has second worst CPU cost of anything below Pith X-Type which is slightly worse. The reason MOST players use Faction/Deadspace tank modules on Mission ships isn't because they want a super exp Gank Me ship, it's because most fit for maximum gank/mission speed and therefore going Faction/Deadspace with only a few (like 2 or 3) tank modules means that much more gank/speed. The RS has terrible CPU so with the T2 Torps it's fitting options are slim. Which is odd because it has miles of PWG. I can double T2 Large Cap Boost on it if I really want to tank hard with incoming neuting and still have grid free.

As far as the RS not being made as a mission ship, how do you know that? Did a CCP Dev say that when it was brought into the game? Did they say "Hey guys, we thought you could use a Pirate ratting ship or PvP ship so here's the Rattlesnake, just don't use it for missions"? If you put Cruise + Sentries on it it's a GREAT mission ship, although with lower DPS than the other comparable Pirate BS's, but it's hard to beat for tank. Obviously the missile bonus is implied for Torps because who needs to poo Cruise missiles out to 240 km? Even still, that doesn't mean it should ONLY be flown with Torps, for short range brawls in PvP or ratting, etc.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
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