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Remove Titans & Supercarriers
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supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#61 - 2013-07-13 05:06:52 UTC
If CCP would introduce subsystems to capitals they'd become vulnerable to subcapitals.

They mentioned in one of the fanfests about this being what they wanted to come out of T3 but instead we got those cruisers. Don't get me wrong, the cruisers are great but are also nothing compared to being able to target individual parts of the ship.

I don't see anything in this thread referring to this... It doesn't fix the power projection problems of jump bridges but does provide a bridge to bring back sub-capital / capital / super-capital battle royal. I could even see them giving the ships more firepower and tanking with exploitable vulnerabilities like that.
Prelate Hucel-Ge
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-07-13 06:00:08 UTC
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
Prelate Hucel-Ge wrote:
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
Jinli mei wrote:

This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."


I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game.

Name three people that actually matter and quote where they said this. :allears:


Why would I go on a quote-hunt to appease someone who obviously doesn't understand how much supers impact the game in a negative way?

Why should I waste my time explaining why you're wrong when you're in the coalition that has no clue on how to use supercaptials effectively and safely? Hint: safely doesn't mean "never use them".
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2013-07-13 08:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberu Stundrif
Prelate Hucel-Ge wrote:

Why should I waste my time explaining why you're wrong when you're in the coalition that has no clue on how to use supercaptials effectively and safely? Hint: safely doesn't mean "never use them".


I'm just going to leave this here... http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18611012

Just because PL and NCdot may be helping your alliance while it huddles in low-sec, does not mean Supers & Titans are therefore awesome and shouldn't be removed.

Thankfully, there are plenty of us that play the long-game, actually own supers/titans and realize how they simply don't fit into this game.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2013-07-13 11:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronny Hugo
NEONOVUS wrote:

cyno jammers cut both ways and prevent all reinforcements.
Of course if you happen to have a hic and a fleet....
But yeah the idea is embolden the pilots so they come out more, right now deaths canbe attributed to awoxing and really not much else, there is no screw it send in the supers as with bcs and even t3s instead you have people utterly freaked at the concept of putting them in anything but we win or leave there is no die
also what game?


"there is no screw it send in the supers" - Exactly. Supers are only sent in when its more or less a sure thing, and the enemy knows this, so they know their chance of winning by your willingness to escalate, which also provides a further mechanic that prevents people from committing supers to battles.
If the supers could be stacked mile high in station like everything else then we would not have this problem, each super pilot who can lose a super would be out taking more risks with his super.

Nevermind, it was this game where a civilization called the novus kicked butt on Earth.

Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
Jinli mei wrote:

This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."


I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game.

It is not the only mechanic that would fix supers.

supernova ranger wrote:
If CCP would introduce subsystems to capitals they'd become vulnerable to subcapitals.

They mentioned in one of the fanfests about this being what they wanted to come out of T3 but instead we got those cruisers. Don't get me wrong, the cruisers are great but are also nothing compared to being able to target individual parts of the ship.

I don't see anything in this thread referring to this... It doesn't fix the power projection problems of jump bridges but does provide a bridge to bring back sub-capital / capital / super-capital battle royal. I could even see them giving the ships more firepower and tanking with exploitable vulnerabilities like that.

If your 30 billion isk super became easier to kill, you would fly it more often? Supers would then be a last-resort only, and all the trillions spent in supercapitals would vanish, upsetting the oldest vets in the game.
Making supers less risky to commit is the answer, if they are lost the pilot should not have to wait 30 days to put a new one together, if he has the parts he should be able to have ten in one station so that he can fit them all and lose them all in one epic battle.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#65 - 2013-07-13 11:35:24 UTC
Does this mean we can allow capitals back in high-sec? Big smile

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-07-13 11:47:10 UTC
As we've witnessed from the industrial ship tiericide, CCP are reluctant to remove ships from the game entirely. I wouldn't mind seeing tiericide on the carriers so that 'supercarriers' become 'assault carriers'. You know, shrink the model, make them like current carriers but with no logi ability and able to use fighter bombers (10-15 max tho). Give a choice between the current (logi) carriers and something to thump big ships with.

As for titans... ugh. I have no idea what could be done to make these 'balanced'. Take away bridging and reduce their cost to compensate maybe? Removal sounds more... humane.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#67 - 2013-07-13 15:45:32 UTC
no.

Can i haz your stuff?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Phee Phi PhoPhum
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-07-13 16:18:50 UTC
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:

Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.


There is plenty you can be doing with that titan.

This guys gets it http://zkillboard.com/detail/31885989/

This guy too http://zkillboard.com/detail/26155560/

So shush. Get busy! Big smile
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2013-07-14 07:01:10 UTC
Galphii wrote:
As we've witnessed from the industrial ship tiericide, CCP are reluctant to remove ships from the game entirely. I wouldn't mind seeing tiericide on the carriers so that 'supercarriers' become 'assault carriers'. You know, shrink the model, make them like current carriers but with no logi ability and able to use fighter bombers (10-15 max tho). Give a choice between the current (logi) carriers and something to thump big ships with.


Needing their ability to fit remote reps would be interesting for sure. Remove the remote reps and force carriers to support them. This would then essentially be a dreadnaught without a siege timer. Every way you look at it there needs to be something more taken from them. Simply removing them from the game still seems to be the only complete option per my OP.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#70 - 2013-07-17 03:44:35 UTC
I still think that adding target-able capital subsystems and keeping capitals nerfed in a way that lets them fire only on enemy capitals but also provide significant boosts to sub-cap performance would fix the problems you are seeing.

It's because capitals don't need sub-capitals to survive that we are having an issue... Me thinks at least...
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2013-07-17 07:45:57 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
I still think that adding target-able capital subsystems and keeping capitals nerfed in a way that lets them fire only on enemy capitals but also provide significant boosts to sub-cap performance would fix the problems you are seeing.

It's because capitals don't need sub-capitals to survive that we are having an issue... Me thinks at least...



This is not a discussion about capitals, this is a discussion about the removal of supercarriers and titans.
Siri Exotic
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-07-17 15:14:43 UTC
That's a tough one.

I've trained for years to fly them, I've still never stepped foot in one and can't be bothered to relegate an a character to logging out in one never to see the confines of a station again.

I saw a fleet of them once when in IT Alliance and was awstruck. (they are still aweinspiring when seen) ..but at the same time made me realize that they are supposed to be the pinnacle of the game and a way of showing massive dedication and team work to obtain just one, more than 1 seems excessive, more than 2 says to me something went wrong with the planck bubble generator....

they are too easy to obtain, and too unentertaining to fight against.

Lock them all in a wormhole system and close the holes for ever.
Bryperium
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
#73 - 2013-07-24 13:57:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryperium
A few thoughts:

-I'm not sure the market could sustain such a large infusion of minerals if carried out as per the OP.

-This would likely proliferate the usage of t1 capitals on all scales of k-space fights. Though I love flying triage carriers and dreads in small gangs during the late USTZ, I'd rather not see them become more common then they already are.

-The evidence of the perceived issues super capitals cause is anecdotal. EVE was last free of capitals half a decade ago, and it is a far different game today then it was then.

-These ships are one of the last Representatives of the advantages of a faction holding ISK in the null sec game. You could make this argument for SRP as well, though I find that pilots can easily replace most sub-supercapital ships when motivated to do so.

The only thing I realistically see as an issue is the alleged over proliferation, But at the end of the day this is a pseudo sandbox game and I'd be more interested in the players reactions and adaptations then CCP's direct intervention.

-
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-07-24 14:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
i'm kind of new to the discussion, so please pardon my naïveté. the way i see it, the main problem with supercaps is that they are built way faster than they explode. yes, they are difficult to kill but it's not impossible. if we were to limit the ability to actually build them, wouldn't this also fix the problem in the long run? (yes, i am aware that there are arguably too many of them in the game already.)

the first proposal that comes to mind would be to have the hulls produced by NPCs at a constant rate and then auctioned to the highest bidder. to keep the mineral sink, you could have the hulls "half-finished" and in need of costly upgrades which are necessary for anything other than mere navigation.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#75 - 2013-07-24 15:15:48 UTC
Dyslike compensation from SC removal, just remove as is.Pirate
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-07-24 23:25:15 UTC
i'll just bump this because i'd really like to know the problem with what i posted above *bump*

I should buy an Ishtar.
Bryperium
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
#77 - 2013-07-25 00:11:39 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
i'll just bump this because i'd really like to know the problem with what i posted above *bump*


I think it is a good idea (though I'd personally have npc's sell "certifications" of the hull to allow them to be launched from the CSAA instead),

But the most recent QEN has shown that the actual active super population of the game has been pretty consistent (actually falling slightly) as of late due to pilot's tendency to buy their shiny then burn out & log off, never too be seen again, in addition too an always increasing number of older players with said ships going inactive.


I may welcome such measures if we start to see the active supercapital population spike out of control, alongside production, but it seems possible that CCP has plans in place for this already (drone goo nerf for example?).

-
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-07-25 11:43:57 UTC
Bryperium wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
i'll just bump this because i'd really like to know the problem with what i posted above *bump*


I think it is a good idea (though I'd personally have npc's sell "certifications" of the hull to allow them to be launched from the CSAA instead),

But the most recent QEN has shown that the actual active super population of the game has been pretty consistent (actually falling slightly) as of late due to pilot's tendency to buy their shiny then burn out & log off, never too be seen again, in addition too an always increasing number of older players with said ships going inactive.


I may welcome such measures if we start to see the active supercapital population spike out of control, alongside production, but it seems possible that CCP has plans in place for this already (drone goo nerf for example?).

well, our short term goal is to reduce the amount of supers, so if people burn out and leave and production is highly limited then that also fixes the problem. also, imagine coming back to eve after 5 years and realizing that your titan is now one of ~20 of its kind and worth trillions :D

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#79 - 2013-07-25 11:57:30 UTC
Better introduce more T2 anti-capships in Destroyer size.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-07-25 12:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Better introduce more T2 anti-capships in Destroyer size.

you mean like stealth bombers with citadel launchers? that would be fun....

edit: except you have to make sure they are not abused for structure grinding. wouldn't want a fleet worth 200mil grind a large pos in under 15 minutes, now would we?

I should buy an Ishtar.