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Remove Titans & Supercarriers
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Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2013-05-11 01:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberu Stundrif
First of all, I'm a Supercapital pilot. I own an Avatar and a Nyx.

Remove them from the game.

- Reprocess ships and place all minerals in "Redeemable Items" based on ME 0 Titan/Supercarrier BPO
- Refund all skillbook costs & refund skillpoints
- Place character in home station.

The Supercapital problem will not improve by simply nerfing these ships into uselessness as CCP has intended to do. My Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.

- The power of the Doomsday is fine as it is, but when you look at the numbers of Titans owned by any one corporation/alliance, it is unbalanced. When an alliance can drop 50 titans on an opposing fleet, there is something terribly wrong.

- I don't want to bring tracking titans back. This was a stupid mechanic and far too easy to make subcapital fleets inferior.

I want to bring back Dreadnought slugfeasts and the days when Carriers were considered something amazing. Remove Supercapitals from the game completely.

This will go a long way to balancing the game and giving newer alliances the chance to succeed.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-05-11 02:29:17 UTC
I'd like to see a smaller set of capital weapons which cost less powergrid, and a capital armor plate and shield extender. So if you expect titans in the area, you could downgrade your weapons and fit your dreads with plates or extenders along with hardeners to push their EHP well above 2 mil, maybe over 4 mil, so that it takes more shots to kill em.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#3 - 2013-05-11 02:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Removing Supers won't solve anything with blob warfare. And although you've probably played a good while, mega Corps/Alliances have been a thing since within a few months of Eve's launch day. Go back a good while when BoB was around and there were SO few Titans even in the game that it was actual news when one was used. The only thing removing Supers does is SP cap any toon over about 7-8 years old. Blob wars will ALWAYS happen, whether there are Capital ships or not. Capitals/Supers in the theatre of war add a unique combat orientation.

Take a point from RL. To say "remove all Aircraft Carriers from the world, they serve no purpose but a staging point for war and cost tens of billions" is ignorant as a Carrier IRL can be THE deciding factor in a war on foreign shores. Though the USA spends WAY too much of tax payer's money on "defense" but that's another Jenny Jones show.

There is no good reason for CCP to remove any ships from the game, from the smallest (some would say T1 Frigates are useless in blobs, but they would be mistaken as well) to the largest. If YOU don't like how much it costs for your Titan and think ti's useless then sell it and work on some other skills, maybe Invention or POS babysitting would suit you.

Quote:
This will go a long way to balancing the game and giving newer alliances the chance to succeed.


Also removing Supers will NOT IN ANY WAY effect the sheer size of Alliances like Goons. Small Alliance will NEVER be able to compete against an Alliance of their size unless they merge with others to specifically take them out, just like what goes on in Eve on a weekly basis, territory changing hands and back again, the ebb and flow of Eve.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#4 - 2013-05-11 02:52:14 UTC
As the owner of a Titan, I see the validity of the argument that Tib is making, but it will never happen.

I too remember the days when there were only a few Titans and Supercarriers. They were unbalanced and gamebreaking then, just as they are now that there are more of them. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#5 - 2013-05-11 03:07:13 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
As the owner of a Titan, I see the validity of the argument that Tib is making, but it will never happen.

I too remember the days when there were only a few Titans and Supercarriers. They were unbalanced and gamebreaking then, just as they are now that there are more of them. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay.


I'm not saying the OP's point isn't valid I'm saying it won't solve anything when it comes to Alliances with well over 2000 members against Alliances with (if they're lucky) 500 members, and forget Alliances with less than 200 members. Gigantic Alliances will be able to steamroll smaller ones no matter what ship types they're using, period, because all that really matters in Eve's blob warfare is who has the biggest blob. That's not to say a smaller blob NEVER wins, but when faced with 1.5-1 or as much as 20-1 ratios the smaller Fleet with lose most of the time.

Also, SP capping out players basically gives them nothing to work for and thus CCP may lose subs, even if all they have to train for now is different Race's Supers.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2013-05-11 03:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberu Stundrif
DeLindsay wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
As the owner of a Titan, I see the validity of the argument that Tib is making, but it will never happen.

I too remember the days when there were only a few Titans and Supercarriers. They were unbalanced and gamebreaking then, just as they are now that there are more of them. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay.


I'm not saying the OP's point isn't valid I'm saying it won't solve anything when it comes to Alliances with well over 2000 members against Alliances with (if they're lucky) 500 members, and forget Alliances with less than 200 members. Gigantic Alliances will be able to steamroll smaller ones no matter what ship types they're using, period, because all that really matters in Eve's blob warfare is who has the biggest blob. That's not to say a smaller blob NEVER wins, but when faced with 1.5-1 or as much as 20-1 ratios the smaller Fleet with lose most of the time.

Also, SP capping out players basically gives them nothing to work for and thus CCP may lose subs, even if all they have to train for now is different Race's Supers.



Alliances with 2,000 members wither and fail under their own weight. It is the circle of life.

Just because you have 10,000 people in your alliance doesn't mean you can get more in fleet than a 1,000 man alliance. Just saying.

When large groups of people get together to accomplish something, that's awesome. If they become too powerful, EVE unites against them. I would run out of room in this post before I could even begin providing examples.

In addition, smaller alliances can build large capital fleets without the need for Sov. If there simply wasn't a supercapital threat, null-sec alliances would have to work diligently to keep themselves lean, mean, fighting machines. Pushing an "I Win" button is incredibly stupid.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-05-11 09:02:06 UTC
Don't you think that the biggest problems is the blob?

Here a few sugestions: SOV CHANGES and POS CHANGES

o7

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-05-11 10:44:12 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Don't you think that the biggest problems is the blob?

Here a few sugestions: SOV CHANGES and POS CHANGES

o7



Do you have to advertise your awful ideas in every thread you come across?
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-05-11 12:01:04 UTC
Besides beeing a forum alt for paranoidic reasons and not flying something lager than a BS...

Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.

Having no cyno would hurt life in non-empire massively but would force the players to work much more together than they do now. Think of Convoys, outmanouvering enemy fleets, the need to produce the most of your stuff in the place you live in. Making your own space worthwile to live in, because you actively don't want to stick to empire rules that someone made up. Basically comitting yourself to that space.

I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 .
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#10 - 2013-05-11 17:13:54 UTC
Mascha Tzash wrote:
Besides beeing a forum alt for paranoidic reasons and not flying something lager than a BS...

Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.

Having no cyno would hurt life in non-empire massively but would force the players to work much more together than they do now. Think of Convoys, outmanouvering enemy fleets, the need to produce the most of your stuff in the place you live in. Making your own space worthwile to live in, because you actively don't want to stick to empire rules that someone made up. Basically comitting yourself to that space.

I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 .

Yes, lets make people run MMO escort missions all day every day.

It's a game. Trying to turn it into world war one for the sake of making it less fun and more annoying.. why?
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2013-05-11 17:33:23 UTC
Mascha Tzash wrote:

Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.
...
I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 .


You have obviously NEVER done logistics to the butt-end of the universe, therefore your argument is invalid.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#12 - 2013-05-11 17:54:37 UTC
remove supers and swarms of regular carriers will bloat out your sun. nothing solved
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2013-05-11 18:41:58 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
remove supers and swarms of regular carriers will bloat out your sun. nothing solved


Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-11 20:42:31 UTC
OP +1

Personally if a blob of 200 vs blob of 50, yes the blob of 200 will win, atleast the blob of 50 wont get titaned and super carriered as well...

one thing you could do, is simply put in a from this date no more titans or supercarriers will ewer be able to built, then that are in the game, is those that exist, and on after one will they slovly disapear... that also will give those that have them, a sence of feeling special, maybe a compromise
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#15 - 2013-05-11 22:06:52 UTC
Quote:
one thing you could do, is simply put in a from this date no more titans or supercarriers will ewer be able to built, then that are in the game, is those that exist, and on after one will they slovly disapear... that also will give those that have them, a sence of feeling special, maybe a compromise


Although this still doesn't address the underlying issue the OP brought up about smaller Alliances having a chance, your suggestion is actually pretty good. There are NUMEROUS Supers in the game now and it's not like they go pop by the hundreds every week so even if CCP stopped all building of them with the launch of Odyssey or the next Xpac or w/e there'd still be a ton in game for quite some time to come.

Quote:
Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet.


And regular Carriers + Dreads can't do much of anything against a large whelp fleet of sub caps. If some small Alliance trying to eek out an existence drop 50 Carriers/Dreads (with some escort obv) against say Goon's massive cannon fodder fleets they'd be toast, which is exactly how it happens now. The Goon's 200+ Neut Cane fleets are particularly devastating against Cap fleets and cost the Goons basically nothing, they don't even have to risk Cap ships other than to come in at the end and mop up what's left.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#16 - 2013-05-11 22:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Mascha Tzash wrote:
Besides beeing a forum alt for paranoidic reasons and not flying something lager than a BS...

Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.

Having no cyno would hurt life in non-empire massively but would force the players to work much more together than they do now. Think of Convoys, outmanouvering enemy fleets, the need to produce the most of your stuff in the place you live in. Making your own space worthwile to live in, because you actively don't want to stick to empire rules that someone made up. Basically comitting yourself to that space.

I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 .

Yes, lets make people run MMO escort missions all day every day.

It's a game. Trying to turn it into world war one for the sake of making it less fun and more annoying.. why?


this isnt a game. when someone has to work to earn a ship, then work to earn the mods and run the chance of loosing tons of money when it dies is not a game. when BOB fell, there was $16000 worth of cap ships stolen from their hangar...that is not a game.
this is a simulator or sorts. it reflects real life economics, working towards a goal and actually putting real time into generating goods.
a game was xwing vs tie fighter. if u blow up, you get another ship. you push redo.
i have yet to be able to push redo and get a faction fit marauder back or an orca for that matter.

i remember the days when FIX was the king of 300 ship drive-by's. we worked with BOB on numerous occasions but when we wanted something, it was a blob fest even back in 03-04. more ships= more destruction.

the only way to stop the blob would be to limit the amount of bad guys who can target a single ship.
i am in no way an advocate for this, but if only 1 person can attack 1 ship, then it wouldnt matter how many you brought. things would change. it wouldnt be fleet warfare anymore, it would be a bunch of 1v1.

blob warfare is here to stay.

and cyno's arent the root of evil. i dislike cynos because they force me to rely on someone else to come flag me in...i should be able to jump to that system if i choose without relying on another paying account. but thats my opinion. i like caps being able to jump, but i would love for them to be able to use a gate as well. i dont think thats over powered at all.
if i wanna rat 1 system over, its stupid for me to have to get someone to cyno me in 1 system.
having the ability to jump is a good thing, but limiting us to jumping as an ONLY means of transport is dumb.

all one would have to do is open the limit for gates. i would jump gates 2 systems and rat or jump if i have a cyno.
and yes, beacons for low sec means i have to rat those beaconed systems or not rat. what about low sec? what about rorqual ops in low sec? (i know that the convo was about to turn to beacons...)
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2013-05-11 23:43:01 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet.


And regular Carriers + Dreads can't do much of anything against a large whelp fleet of sub caps. If some small Alliance trying to eek out an existence drop 50 Carriers/Dreads (with some escort obv) against say Goon's massive cannon fodder fleets they'd be toast, which is exactly how it happens now. The Goon's 200+ Neut Cane fleets are particularly devastating against Cap fleets and cost the Goons basically nothing, they don't even have to risk Cap ships other than to come in at the end and mop up what's left.


You really are butt-hurt about Goons. Get over it. No one cares that some big, bad fleet touched you in a place the sun don't shine. If some big group of dudes want to use caps and you're afraid of Goons, get a spy and avoid being dropped altogether. If you want to play with the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#18 - 2013-05-12 00:11:44 UTC
Quote:
You really are butt-hurt about Goons. Get over it. No one cares that some big, bad fleet touched you in a place the sun don't shine. If some big group of dudes want to use caps and you're afraid of Goons, get a spy and avoid being dropped altogether. If you want to play with the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys.

No, I'm using Goons as an example because they are EXACTLY the type of Alliance that stands in the way of the smaller Alliances that YOU hope to help with the removal of Supers. And I was around when BoB was the evil of Eve and Goons were the good guys... Then we all learned differently once BoB was gone.

As plain as I can explain it, your idea simply will not work. Smaller Alliances will NEVER be competitive against much larger ones NO MATTER WHAT ship types are in the game, period.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2013-05-12 00:28:42 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
Quote:
You really are butt-hurt about Goons. Get over it. No one cares that some big, bad fleet touched you in a place the sun don't shine. If some big group of dudes want to use caps and you're afraid of Goons, get a spy and avoid being dropped altogether. If you want to play with the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys.

No, I'm using Goons as an example because they are EXACTLY the type of Alliance that stands in the way of the smaller Alliances that YOU hope to help with the removal of Supers. And I was around when BoB was the evil of Eve and Goons were the good guys... Then we all learned differently once BoB was gone.

As plain as I can explain it, your idea simply will not work. Smaller Alliances will NEVER be competitive against much larger ones NO MATTER WHAT ship types are in the game, period.


I will stop arguing with you as you obviously don't see the bigger picture. I'd suggest you save yourself plenty of heartache and continue running missions/incursions in high sec.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#20 - 2013-05-12 21:25:17 UTC
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
remove supers and swarms of regular carriers will bloat out your sun. nothing solved


Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet.

RZR cant kill anything at all to begin with, crawl back under goons skirt..
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