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Racial ship and system balancing -- Homogenization
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Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#1 - 2013-05-10 22:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Hello, I am cross trained EVE pilot and have flown Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr ships. Also during my past I have witnessed fights in low sec, WH and null. I do not have any experience from Caldari ships but I have spoken to several pilots that have not trolled about it.

There are several issues that cause the races be seriously in balance. Where I feel that Amarr and Caldari are in the weak end.

PVP
First of all PVP. As many of online games EVE is also an rock/paper/scissor game. You defeat others mostly by right choice of fitting, ship selection and dealt damage type.

As flexibility goes Minmatars gain possibility to cross fit shield or amor tank, ability to deal wide variety of damage types with good tracking, they also have best alpha that mixed with the flexing damage type is quite deadly, they also have most speed that helps you gain on your enemy or run or evade damage. Gallente do they have bit of everything, drones for versatile damage, quite ok speeds, nice active tank, ability to cross fit tank types as well. Their gun system causes thermal/kinetic that makes quite nice damage in most situations. Caldaries and bit of mixed bunch that have lot of potential drake was quite long jack of all trades, but there has been and still are problems with different ship sizes. But in general they are stuck to shields (predictable damage resistance), in most hull to kinetic/thermal damage even missile are able to deal all kinetic is mostly used. Last we have Amarr who are slowest, predictable damage type, predictable tank, cap hog ships, that barely have mids to fit properly anymore nice. Lasers are so unpopular tat people actively fit projectile guns to Amarr boats.

There are several other aspect too to this. One of the is EWAR immunities. As most of you know shield tank can regenerate over time without any cap input. This combined to cap free weapon system such as projectiles or missiles can make ship completely neut / vampire immune. Included to this missile system is immune to TD. Gallentes can become cap immune too with particular hulls like Vexor or Myrmiddon by fitting a shield tank with drones. Amarr are the only raise that is Vulnerable for all existing EWARs. And the fitting is so tightly computed that mostly ever there is no chance to fit anything extra.Because cap is so high vulnerability that you have to stick your ship with cap mods / rigs that help with cap consumption.

PVE
PVE has same issues with the ships as we have in PVP. Minny ships can do most NPC types with ease where Gallente, Caldari and Amarr have difficulties. Amarr and Caldari ships have difficulties flying cross tank fleets. Where Minmatar and Gallente are probably always able to fit a role.

So in short every race:
- Minmatars jack of all trades. You can make the ships work almost to anything.
- Gallente wanna be jack of all trades. Quite happy being how they are.
- Caldari a mess, simply fact that caldari is the only race that uses turrets + missiles + drones make their weapon system training time long. Missiles are nice but travel time makes damage sluggish. Slow ships. Predictable damage vulnerabilities.
- Amarr are like cheese, holes every where everyone wants to bite them. Slow ships that native damage type is em/thermal which is very often most resisted damage type in PVP since armor is favored over shield. Predictable damage vulnerbilities. EWAR sponge (give me I suck all of them!). Cap intensive fitting that does not leave much space for flexible fitting.


Issues and Homogenization
Most EVE players think homogenization is something where every ship and weapon type becomes same. This could be one way but I hope we can figure out more flexible ways to bring the weapon systems and tank types into balances. I have pondered these issues quite much due since every ship that I have flown been dear to me.

Weapon systems
Biggest issues with weapon systems are

  • Versatile damage types
  • Travel / damage apply delay
  • Cap use


Projectiles are instant damage, applied in versatile damage without cap use. None other weapon system shares these 2 powerful traits. Hybrid and lasers being able to deal instant damage that is roughly split to 2 resistance types and consume cap. Where drones and missiles can deal all damage types both in T1 and T2 variety but travel time of both systems are yet rather horrid both being completely cap free.

In my personal experience lasers ability to be ammo free is more of a burden than favor. T1 ammos do not damage, they are worth nothing. The high price of this cap intensivity is not worth this fact.

Tanks
There are some issues between shield and armor tanks. Both of them have their advantages. There is not huge problem in between these tanks but I raise points hopefully other people can agree with me.

  • Passive tanking
  • Signature radius and scanning speed of shield fit ship
  • Shield tank ships are more easy to EHP / damage fit due to damage mods do not share slot with tank modules.


Passive regen of shield tank makes lot of confusion since when people compare shield and armor tank together they do not consider reinforced shield buffer regen. Which has and will continue cause flame. Also passive regen helps you to survive in systems where you are flying in limited fleet with buffer tank. You will eventually die as armor fit ship if you do not PAY to repair or get someone to repair you up. Where shield simply regenerates over time.

I believe signature radius difference is unfair for shield fit ships. I hope that there would not have to be difference in this between tank types.

Shield fit ship can easily fit several damage mods and shield modules. Where armor has bit more flexibility for mids / EWAR First giving shield fit ship unfair advantage in PVE 2nd giving armor fit ship unfair advantage in PVP.

-- Continued --
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#2 - 2013-05-10 22:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Suggestions for possible solutions

Weapon versatile damage
We could balance lasers and hybrids by giving them slight resistance penetration. Introducing new module that would give resistance penetration. This resistance penetration should not make lasers or hybrids the superior weapon system but help them out against high resistance tanks. I think this would be great idea since everyone know Amarrs from lasers and this would make lasers viable weapon system in comparison of other weapon systems. Of course this would have to be adjusted so that damage of these systems were closer to the projectile and missile and drone damage systems meaning that base damage of the system should be down-scaled slightly.

Damage Apply delay
When we look at damage application it is divided into several attributes at the time being. To fire on a ship one first needs to lock on a target then fire / travel. As we want to keep systems separate and unique I would consider several approaches to this issue.

  1. Give missile and drone ships increased scan resolution / ability to lock faster. It will help these damage systems to start firing faster. Also give them slight advantage of initiating EWAR.
  2. Let missile ship start firing in the space and on acquiring a lock let the missiles travel to target.
  3. Drones already have several different ways to improve. Light and medium drone can travel very fast but heavies are very sluggish. To increase use of heavies. We could consider if there could be a mod that micro jumped heavies to target. Remember that heavies are really sluggish so even if they would get to target in instant they would still have to stay on the target as well. This module could be OP but just consider it. Heavies are nice system but rarely used.


Cap consumption / EWAR immunity
This is an serious issue it causes several crippling problems what comes to amarr fitting and also gives some weapon systems awful advantage of being CAP / EWAR immune. To balance the weapon systems these steps need to be taken

  1. Every weapon system has to take cap OR if not take cap they have to yet disable if your cap runs out. Perhaps it could be done that if your cap was completely out of power your weapon systems were forced to reboot and they could not come online until 10% of cap was regened. This would take care of completele EWAR immunity but still give projectile and launcher edge but without being completely immune.
  2. Amarr lasers and Gallente hybrids, I know that the gun energy consumption hinders both Races. Both races have had or will have RoF bonus introduced to their hulls that also increases cap consumption of guns by 5%. First where we should start is that all RoF modified modules and effect should be balanced in either module itself or hull that has the RoF bonus. For example heat sinks and magnetic field stabilizers have been to long without cap reduction. We need them there!!
  3. Making cap battary modules less expensive to fit. Cap batteries take very much ship resources in comparison to other modules. Amarr and Gallente ships need these things the most due to their vulnerability to cap neut ewar. Yet often you can fit just one. Due to fit requirements. I do not feel these modules are overpowered and ships should be able to fit more than 1 of them.
  4. Making cap injector more viable form of cap replenish. Same as battery, PWG / CPU reqs should be adjusted. Ships should be able to carry more charges than for several minutes of brawl.


Weapon tracking distruption immunity
What I can say. Missiles.. please implement the TD there already. This has been under debate for very long make it happen. It does not help Amarr at all when about 30% of ship fits can easily become IMMUNE -- I could understand resistant but not immune!! -- to both of their EWAR.

Passive regen
To balance out shields and armor in roams. Armor tank needs passive ability to regen armor. Its unfair that armor fit ships have to pay for repairs when shield fit ships can gain instant shield buffer with quick dock/undock. My suggestion is either modules to mid slot that can make armor to regenerate passively or simply ability for armor to regen if you are not in fight / taking damage. If the regen was out of combat it could be simply explain with maintenance of the ships or repair bots.. Also then armor could be also renewed just by dock/undock.

Shield signature
I simply think this unfair. Way you fit your ship should not increase the speed you can be scanned. I hope we could balance this out somehow.

Module imbalances between tanks
This is probably as CCP has intended but I wish there was smaller gap between the tanks in fitting damage/buffer/ewar. I do not have simple solution but hopefully someone could find a way.

Amarr ships are suffering very badly. Many people including me think that the new Armageddon is not real Amarr ship. It does address some issues but funnily its Amarr EWAR hull that is amongst the most resisted / immunity and that cap neuting being as it most efficient form against other Amarr hulls. I do not say its a bad hull its just that many players disagree for Amarr becoming 2ndary drone race now. Old Typhoon was very much like the new Geddon is it got changed due to long training time. Now we have the same disaster on Amarr. Its like devs decided to give both missiles and drones to it that it could avoid all existing problems we have with lasers. Please consider the ship balances that Amarr ships are more usable in the future.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#3 - 2013-05-10 23:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Other solutions suggested by other players

Kethry Avenger -- Engergy Weapon Crystal Changes
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-05-11 09:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Hi

i just read your thread and i mostly can not agree with it.

Ok Amarr Cap Issues and fixed Damage Types (nice recomandations Engergy Weapon Crystal Changes atleast it works with physics) are correct but i still have to test the changes coming this summer. Otherwise I too dont like that t1 ammo is indestructible. Else Lasers are great weapon systems because i can easily increase my Range with just swapping crystals and still hit the target (Gallente use knives when amarr can use knives and guns). Plus using short range ammo deal a great deal of damage.

The next point is you want tracking disruptors to affect missiles. FFS no, we have Defender missiles to counter missiles also CCP needs to get them up to date and working properly (posted my idea in Ideas for new modules 13th post from the top).

Ok now to Armageddon not being a real Amarr BS, just think of whom they are mostly fighting (Sansha/Blood both cap hungry ship designs ok minmatar not). So why not design some ships to make it easier to fight those fiends.

So why not the minmatar issue now. Lol You say they can be completly Cap independent. Thats bull and u know it, yeah they still can use their weapons when they run out of cap. But they cant use ewar, hardeners, neuts, active reps and prop mods and have by nature a weak tank because they prefer to be the fastest.

My next point would be the sig issue with shields you mentioned. CCP designed it that way to give a penalty to counter the passive shield recharge (is what i believe). That means without the sig increase u get harder to hit and less damage applied to you. Means CCP needs to find another way to balance that should they reduce the HP boosted then on extenders or how should the rigs get penalized then? By the way of passive regen for armor pls dont, if its such an issue ccp should just increase the plate hp boni.

Now we go to caldari, the idea how they want to fight is completly acceptable to me, also i would greatly reduce their drone bay and drone bandwith (max 1 set of light drones + max 1 set in reserve) i would give the missile bonus to all types of missiles not only kinetic. Also pure shield tanked race is fine with me.

Finally overall i wouldnt say that armor is better in pvp. Because you cant fit ewar more easily in armor ships just as example coercer only has 2 mids, many armor ships have only 3 or 4 mids which u need mostly already for prop mod, point and cap.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#5 - 2013-05-11 14:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

i just read your thread and i mostly can not agree with it.

Ok Amarr Cap Issues and fixed Damage Types (nice recomandations Engergy Weapon Crystal Changes atleast it works with physics) are correct but i still have to test the changes coming this summer. Otherwise I too dont like that t1 ammo is indestructible. Else Lasers are great weapon systems because i can easily increase my Range with just swapping crystals and still hit the target (Gallente use knives when amarr can use knives and guns). Plus using short range ammo deal a great deal of damage.

The next point is you want tracking disruptors to affect missiles. FFS no, we have Defender missiles to counter missiles also CCP needs to get them up to date and working properly (posted my idea in Ideas for new modules 13th post from the top).


Hi Jeanne I read through your post and it seems you did not read my post correctly.

Kethry Avenger suggestion for energy crystal seems one possible solution. Simply by changing the division of the damage types could already help a lot. Its good solution something that should be considered by the devs. I will attach it to the original post.

Defender missiles is quite obsolete suggestion since CCP is about to remove launcher slots from the the BS hulls also many smaller ship hulls never had launcher slots. Also as they are currently implemented they do not function enough viably. And what comes to TD and all EWAR. No ship or fit should gain complete immunity to any EWAR. This leaves the EWARs out of balance and TDs need to affect missiles.I do not mean TDs should be able to screw whole missile system how they do turrets but TD SHOULD affect missile guiding.

Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

Ok now to Armageddon not being a real Amarr BS, just think of whom they are mostly fighting (Sansha/Blood both cap hungry ship designs ok minmatar not). So why not design some ships to make it easier to fight those fiends.


Amarr won't ever be balance in other ship hulls as long as they are the only ships that are more or less forced to be EWAR vulnerable not immune to any. This is not helped that Amarr ships rely so heavily on cap it simply makes the vulnerabilities worse due you are forced to fit mods to even keep your guns and rep running.

Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

So why not the minmatar issue now. Lol You say they can be completly Cap independent. Thats bull and u know it, yeah they still can use their weapons when they run out of cap. But they cant use ewar, hardeners, neuts, active reps and prop mods and have by nature a weak tank because they prefer to be the fastest.


You may use passive hardeners to gain EHP, and simple buffer for tank damage. This would leave EWAR and MWD/AB your only cap requiring skills. So your ship can still fly and fire even your cap is out. Yes you get increased damage due to loss of speed if your propulsion boost is not running. But the fact is that Minnies evade damage due to the speed. If your ship base speed is high enough and you get into close range you won't probably need the increased speed. Only thing that has to stick is tackle and even with cap neut on you you should be able to keep it running if you have not screwed ship natural cap regen.

Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

My next point would be the sig issue with shields you mentioned. CCP designed it that way to give a penalty to counter the passive shield recharge (is what i believe). That means without the sig increase u get harder to hit and less damage applied to you. Means CCP needs to find another way to balance that should they reduce the HP boosted then on extenders or how should the rigs get penalized then? By the way of passive regen for armor pls dont, if its such an issue ccp should just increase the plate hp boni.

Now we go to caldari, the idea how they want to fight is completly acceptable to me, also i would greatly reduce their drone bay and drone bandwith (max 1 set of light drones + max 1 set in reserve) i would give the missile bonus to all types of missiles not only kinetic. Also pure shield tanked race is fine with me.


I spoke not about increased damage on the shield but the fact that if you fit your ship with shield modules you increase your ships signature radius. That makes you easier to scan with probes. You are easier to be ganked.

What comes to passive regen if you read it through well you see that I do not suggest similar regen for Armor as shields have. Yes it could be done by mid slot modules since they would then take out cap regen ability but honestly I do not like this idea either. As I suggested secondly Armor could repair over time out of combat. This would not fiddle with current tanks should be easy to implement and balance armor tanking also so that buffer tanking would also come possible for armor. You simply would need time after fight to recover.

Giving missile damage bonus to all damage types would make Caldari god race but it could be adjusted so that kinetic damage bonus could be brought down and adding launcher?This would make Caldari less bound to kinetic but still make superior kinetic damage.

Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

Finally overall i wouldnt say that armor is better in pvp. Because you cant fit ewar more easily in armor ships just as example coercer only has 2 mids, many armor ships have only 3 or 4 mids which u need mostly already for prop mod, point and cap.

Here we come to the exact problem. Coercer is an amarr hull and destroyer included to that. Amarr hulls cannot fit crap thats the problem. This the same on Minmatar or Gallente ships and you will be amazed. Even Minmatars are "active" tank ships they do better in PVP armor fit that Amarr even Amarr is the Armor tank race.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-05-11 15:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Theia Matova wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

i just read your thread and i mostly can not agree with it.

Ok Amarr Cap Issues and fixed Damage Types (nice recomandations Engergy Weapon Crystal Changes atleast it works with physics) are correct but i still have to test the changes coming this summer. Otherwise I too dont like that t1 ammo is indestructible. Else Lasers are great weapon systems because i can easily increase my Range with just swapping crystals and still hit the target (Gallente use knives when amarr can use knives and guns). Plus using short range ammo deal a great deal of damage.

The next point is you want tracking disruptors to affect missiles. FFS no, we have Defender missiles to counter missiles also CCP needs to get them up to date and working properly (posted my idea in Ideas for new modules 13th post from the top).


Hi Jeanne I read through your post and it seems you did not read my post correctly.

Kethry Avenger suggestion for energy crystal seems one possible solution. Simply by changing the division of the damage types could already help a lot. Its good solution something that should be considered by the devs. I will attach it to the original post.

Defender missiles is quite obsolete suggestion since CCP is about to remove launcher slots from the the BS hulls also many smaller ship hulls never had launcher slots. Also as they are currently implemented they do not function enough viably. And what comes to TD and all EWAR. No ship or fit should gain complete immunity to any EWAR. This leaves the EWARs out of balance and TDs need to affect missiles.I do not mean TDs should be able to screw whole missile system how they do turrets but TD SHOULD affect missile guiding.


That with TD you should have read my post in the thread for ideas for new modules. Its how i would fight missiles and i listed racial weapon systems there which would fit those bills including the current Defender Missile, but ok maybe i should make that its own thread so that it could be discussed fully. Another idea i have still to give deep thought would be decoy drones, which should be a midslot item and screw targeting (decoy will be attacked (percentage chance) and if hit destroyed so need to be relaunched). If u implement TD to screw missiles up i think you will op that system alot.

Theia Matova wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Ok now to Armageddon not being a real Amarr BS, just think of whom they are mostly fighting (Sansha/Blood both cap hungry ship designs ok minmatar not). So why not design some ships to make it easier to fight those fiends.

Amarr won't ever be balance in other ship hulls as long as they are the only ships that are more or less forced to be EWAR vulnerable not immune to any. This is not helped that Amarr ships rely so heavily on cap it simply makes the vulnerabilities worse due you are forced to fit mods to even keep your guns and rep running.


in that i just meant that the geddon will become a drone neut boat and could be fitted into the storyline so that id had been developed to fight Sansha and Blood Raider. And i also think that amarr are especially weak against neuts and td is equal between all gun systems. I just dont think that amarr are flawed in that aspect.

Theia Matova wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

So why not the minmatar issue now. Lol You say they can be completly Cap independent. Thats bull and u know it, yeah they still can use their weapons when they run out of cap. But they cant use ewar, hardeners, neuts, active reps and prop mods and have by nature a weak tank because they prefer to be the fastest.


You may use passive hardeners to gain EHP, and simple buffer for tank damage. This would leave EWAR and MWD/AB your only cap requiring skills. So your ship can still fly and fire even your cap is out. Yes you get increased damage due to loss of speed if your propulsion boost is not running. But the fact is that Minnies evade damage due to the speed. If your ship base speed is high enough and you get into close range you won't probably need the increased speed. Only thing that has to stick is tackle and even with cap neut on you you should be able to keep it running if you have not screwed ship natural cap regen.


Ok thats valid also i see very rarely a minmatar shield without invul, but you are right i forgot armor in that aspect. I may point something out so cap independent weaponsystems normaly have the lowest dps also high alpha, which is making it in some cases worse in other better. But i think it balances it somewhat.

So im running out of characters, no quotations anymore. My Idea is to give lower boni (not 10% back to 5%) but let them
choose their missile types efficiently (why should one missile be better than another if i fire them with the same specs?). And penalize the hulls another way. To your thinking on sig radius penalties ok but drake already has a smaller sig radius unfitted compared to the brutix, also i dont have the number how bad it effects the sig radius u still have to penalize them another way. Which way do u want?

And lastly you are correct that some amarr ships are fatally flawed in slot layout in my opinion. I'm also more of a buffer tanker in PVP tbh and thats where amarr is pretty good. If u want to active tank ships thats gallente. And last the passive armor regen i still dont like it, its just a flavour but shield regens because your power plant regenerate the energy, Armor is physically damaged and needs to be effected actively to work.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#7 - 2013-05-11 15:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

That with TD you should have read my post in the thread for ideas for new modules. Its how i would fight missiles and i listed racial weapon systems there which would fit those bills including the current Defender Missile, but ok maybe i should make that its own thread so that it could be discussed fully. Another idea i have still to give deep thought would be decoy drones, which should be a midslot item and screw targeting (decoy will be attacked (percentage chance) and if hit destroyed so need to be relaunched). If u implement TD to screw missiles up i think you will op that system alot.


So you do not think then that ECM is not overpowered? It affects every race ships there is no absolute immunity for it I believe please prove me wrong if I am. It also affects remote reps and damage application.

So you do not think then that dampening is not overpowered? Its affects every race ships and there is no absolute immunity for it I believe please prove me wrong if I am. It also affects remote reps and damage application. Very much compared to ECM.

So you do not think then that web, scramble, TP are not overpowered? They affect every ship jada jada jada..

After this all consider again what I said. Also defender missiles nor decoy drones are not EWAR types they are countermeasure ideas that should not mixed into EWAR balances!

Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

Ok thats valid also i see very rarely a minmatar shield without invul, but you are right i forgot armor in that aspect. I may point something out so cap independent weaponsystems normaly have the lowest dps also high alpha, which is making it in some cases worse in other better. But i think it balances it somewhat.

So im running out of characters, no quotations anymore. My Idea is to give lower boni (not 10% back to 5%) but let them
choose their missile types efficiently (why should one missile be better than another if i fire them with the same specs?). And penalize the hulls another way. To your thinking on sig radius penalties ok but drake already has a smaller sig radius unfitted compared to the brutix, also i dont have the number how bad it effects the sig radius u still have to penalize them another way. Which way do u want?

And lastly you are correct that some amarr ships are fatally flawed in slot layout in my opinion. I'm also more of a buffer tanker in PVP tbh and thats where amarr is pretty good. If u want to active tank ships thats gallente. And last the passive armor regen i still dont like it, its just a flavour but shield regens because your power plant regenerate the energy, Armor is physically damaged and needs to be effected actively to work.


I red some post over the forums and by judging your comments you fly Caldari. Each of comment you have replied has hint that Caldari ships need buffs. Did you ever fly anything bigger than frigate or cruiser for amarr? I am curious.

What comes about cap free weapon systems having bad alpha is also narrow sighted. Arties are cap free weapon system and due to slow RoF of arties they have superior alpha included to versatile damage type that is just OP. Yes your case applies to missiles and drones but not projectiles. If you red my original post I actually support the idea to buff targeting speed for missile ship that would make the damage application faster. I am bit uneasy about considering dropping RoF of missiles and buffing the damage more than Odyssey already does. It could easily turn missiles into OP weapon system since they are also versatile damage. The suggestion of prefire missiles to space to lock on the locked target could already make it so that when the first wave would hit it could depending on weapon system and travel speed of ships make it so that it could be possible for 2-3 waves of missiles hit. That could already make it severely OP as alpha weapon

I simply rose my own sincere concern of module fitting affecting the speed of how fast ship may be scanned out of space. I would hope that armor and shield ships could be in balance in this no matter what you would fit into your ship. Perhaps replace signature radius with mass or similar when it came to scanning ship.

Amarr are seriously flawed, Caldari also have some type of design mistakes hindering them but Amarr are far behind. Both of them need to be brought same level with Minmatar and Gallente so EVE can be more enjoyable game for everyone.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-05-11 18:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Just to make sure i fly Amarr, Gallente, Caldari and soon Minmatar BS also more in the carebearing compartment with some pirate excursions. I personally think the pve wise caldari wins hands down pvp only through ecm also it got nerfed. And i hate Tracking Disruption if i would have a say remove it completly and replace it with decoy drones or whatever, because tracking disruption isnt a mod which makes sense in my opinion. And yes decoy drones are counter measures which copy your ship signatures so that it reduces damage (basically whats td doing right now just a weaker and working on multiple aggressors). By the way i hate the way ecm works to it should be another way to make your ship alot harder to hit. Sensor Damps maybe ok, cant say how much. But i dont think Amarr are basically flawed, they have some issues like the slot layout of some ships (my fav ships are amarr harbinger and baddon) maybe cap consuption is an issue on hulls after summer have to test that. But the biggest issue is the ammunition. And to the alpha like i said in some cases its great in others it sucks, if u get under the tracking of artis they will never ever hit u and every ac fit i tried on cruisers, battlecruiser loses to pulse and blasters.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#9 - 2013-05-11 19:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Theia Matova
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Just to make sure i fly Amarr, Gallente, Caldari and soon Minmatar BS also more in the carebearing compartment with some pirate excursions. I personally think the pve wise caldari wins hands down pvp only through ecm also it got nerfed. And i hate Tracking Disruption if i would have a say remove it completly and replace it with decoy drones or whatever, because tracking disruption isnt a mod which makes sense in my opinion. And yes decoy drones are counter measures which copy your ship signatures so that it reduces damage (basically whats td doing right now just a weaker and working on multiple aggressors). By the way i hate the way ecm works to it should be another way to make your ship alot harder to hit. Sensor Damps maybe ok, cant say how much.


I do not like ECM, TD, Neut and dampening. In the order I list them. ECM is easy to counter yes but its one of the most awful form of EWAR because it really gets everyone. TD is awful too.. I think both could be turned down just a little. In terms of strength.

Even I do not like the EWARS I am not against any of the EWARs. They are suppose to be strong and disabling. What is the problem is that the racial EWARs are not in balance. That has to change.

Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

But i dont think Amarr are basically flawed, they have some issues like the slot layout of some ships (my fav ships are amarr harbinger and baddon) maybe cap consuption is an issue on hulls after summer have to test that. But the biggest issue is the ammunition. And to the alpha like i said in some cases its great in others it sucks, if u get under the tracking of artis they will never ever hit u and every ac fit i tried on cruisers, battlecruiser loses to pulse and blasters.


So first you claim they are not flawed but in the same breath you do admit that several aspects of amarr asre simply.. flawed. What comes to alpha or laser damage application itself. Resistance piercing should help with the damage application but not make the weapon system OP depending on how it would be implemented of course and on what strengths.

Artillery is sniping weapon system same as beams or rail guns. Simply their alpha is unmatched because the slow RoF and versatile damage type. Sniping weapon systems are planned to under track when you get to certain range.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-05-11 20:17:03 UTC
I think we are talking at cross purposes there. I say that with removing all cap boni from the hulls it could get flawed, i also dont think that the hulls are right now not basically flawed with exception of the 2 midslot hulls. I think and thats what i said in my first post is that the crystals the ammunition is flawed, the ranges work as intented but you should have 2 to 3 damage distributions available at each range thats why i linked the recomandation. My idea of ecm is just that it doesnt jamm the targeted ship but works in a way that makes u lose the lock of enemy ships. Sensor Damps i would like them to be more like chaff which disturbs the enemy sensors like ecm does just on a fleet wide basis. And instead of Tracking Disruptors something like decoy drones they will only autolaunch when your ship or fleet members on watchlist lost their drones. But thats just my thinking, i think ewar needs a bad overhaul but i dont think that amarr is especially strong or weak in that regard and i also dont want to get everything the same way.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#11 - 2013-05-11 21:30:07 UTC
After playing in sisi and flying T1 cruisers. Osprey and Scythe, I popped both of the hulls in level V mission. Scythe could speed tank about 75% of the level V fleet with rather sucky fit. I could have pushed more into speed when I had desired that. Actually the NPCs were only barely able to kill it. But when I brought similar fit Osprey it took about 10s to pop even only 2 BSes and 1 gun was left. Scythe took 25390 damage before popping up, Osprey took 6036.

I have notified CCP Fozzie in the T1 polish pass thread.

After comparing values between the hulls I noticed that all T1 logistics have differences in speed and signature. Quite severe differences. I consider this very bad because small ship hulls barely have any EHP and speed tanking gives Scythe and other Minmatar small ships too big advantage. Problem is that Scythe has the smallest signature and best speed. In fact Scythe has almost 20% more speed than the other t1 logistic boats and smallest signature.

This is very flawed when Minmatar cruiser can tank a fleet and in comparison Caldari ship almost insta pops. I am afraid that whole cruiser balance has been in vain if this is the case with other hulls as well.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-05-31 18:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
I am also in favour of projectiles and missiles having to use cap although to a lower extent than blasters ofc... i can't see how drones could be affected and considering their killable i think its fine they don't use cap.

Lasers need a lot more help with cap issues i have suggested recently a way to make heat sinks reduce cap usage and utilise OH mechanic to compensate for losing the ROF that heat-sinks add and too make use of OH more in general.

on laser EM/Therm damage issue.. well a lot of the problems come in the form of ship hull resistances mostly T2 minmatar hulls aswell as ship resist bonuses which thankfully are getting nerfed.
Also on kin/therm on T2 cal/gal ships.
These T2 resistances need to be rebalanced for instance 10% armour explosive resist on T2 minmatar ship is surely too low..
so more omi resists on T2 hulls being the theme ..doesn't need to be level but 90% on EM 10% on exp is odd just switch a little resist around.

Drones need a massive overhaul i have posted on mulitple drone threads about what i think... but main thing is usability and more sensible sig radius/ velocity and tracking along with more drone skills like falloff.

And definite yes on missiles on TD's.
HAMS and Rocket range is twice the range they should be if you look at torps and relative sized gun ranges.
And an increase on their explosion radius is needed 25 and 125 is the same as guns which could do with being lowered also but then GMP reduces the explosion radius even further.
considering frigs start at about 35 and cruisers around 100.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high