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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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The answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Cloaking.
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Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-10-23 14:15:20 UTC
@Princess Cellestia

Beleive it or not, being blind (local-wise) is a thing you can get used to pretty quickly, and it's not that dramatic. Ask any WH dweller.
You constantly seem to forget that proposed cloaky local blindness works also for the "bad guys", not just you, giving you a very good chance for fighting back. It's your home they're attacking, you should ultimately have the advantage (all other things being equal).
Also, the proposed change doesn't kill local entirely anyway.

As for morons living in big alliances... Morons live everywhere, big alliances are not immune to them. Teach them some sense or kick them out, it's that simple.

As for intel gathering of large fleets - well, since defenders have the advanage of fighting on their home turf, with POSes, JBs, and outposts at their disposal, the attackers should at least have the option to attack with at least some element of surprise.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#62 - 2011-10-23 15:03:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:
People will just start sitting cloaked around gates or bait ships. So small gangs will just get blobbed even more than they currently do. At least now small gangs can see many people in local in the same corp or alliance. Now even that limited information that helps reduce blobbing will be gone.

Here is the post that explains the problem. Of course, the op just ignores the questions it raises.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222866#post222866
I understand your concerns, but don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

I did have a longer post, but the forum ate it.

We know one thing for sure, local is changing and it is a problem in null sec. Until we know what changes are going to be implemented, these ideas are simply forum fodder.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#63 - 2011-10-23 17:09:10 UTC
just throwing my +1 in here. This idea should be seriously considered.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#64 - 2011-10-23 18:20:34 UTC

+1
I like this idea....

However: RECONS absolutely should NOT be completely exempt from the spool-up timer (up to a 50% reduction is more reasonable, depending on the full spoolup length). Recons can be well tanked, already have significant use, and really don't need the instant backup boon. The removal of a spool-up timer is perfect for BOs.

IMO, all cyno's should have a 60ish second spoolup timer, with Recons having a max 50% reduction in the timer. But that's for another thread.

Remember, Only regular cyno's can be jammed. Covert Cyno's can always be lit by a Covert Ship (CovOps, Recons, T3s).

As for whether all cloaks work to remove pilots from local.... Either way is fine... But given the common practice of cloaked alts for intel, I'd think it would be far more interesting for all cloaks to remove the pilot from local & local intel.
Takashi Kaeda
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2011-10-23 23:47:14 UTC
I think this is a good idea, but needs to be implemented along with a change to NPC rats to keep people ratting (and keep the targets for the uboats.) I'd also recommend that it only applies to cov ops cloaks, and regular cloaks remove your ability to see local but keep you listed.

Anyways, make it feasible to rat in PVP fits. At the very least make rats do omni or random damage-types and make them warp out in structure if you don't tackle them. That way when a bump proteus decloaks you, you'll at least stand a fighting chance.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#66 - 2011-10-24 02:49:40 UTC
Only one fundamental problem with it.

Local is getting removed.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#67 - 2011-10-24 11:30:44 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Cearain wrote:
People will just start sitting cloaked around gates or bait ships. So small gangs will just get blobbed even more than they currently do. At least now small gangs can see many people in local in the same corp or alliance. Now even that limited information that helps reduce blobbing will be gone.

Here is the post that explains the problem. Of course, the op just ignores the questions it raises.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222866#post222866
I understand your concerns, but don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

I did have a longer post, but the forum ate it.

We know one thing for sure, local is changing and it is a problem in null sec. Until we know what changes are going to be implemented, these ideas are simply forum fodder.



Well they said they were going to change it due to incarna. But now there has been a massive reassignment so its not so clear they will need to.

So I don't see what this wll accomplish other than resolve an imagined problem and make solo/small scale pvp harder to find.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Franky Sugaz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#68 - 2011-10-24 12:34:07 UTC
Princess Cellestia wrote:
snip


for the level of reward that an alliance like your gain owning entire regions(moon go, high level pve etc) your risk level is far too low; an alliance can owne a region for years farming it's resources to the bone to the point that they can even mass produce supercaps. Not talking about the fact that alliance war on big scale are so rare that you rarely use those supers.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#69 - 2011-10-24 12:34:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cearain wrote:
People will just start sitting cloaked around gates or bait ships. So small gangs will just get blobbed even more than they currently do. At least now small gangs can see many people in local in the same corp or alliance. Now even that limited information that helps reduce blobbing will be gone.

Here is the post that explains the problem. Of course, the op just ignores the questions it raises.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222866#post222866
I understand your concerns, but don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

I did have a longer post, but the forum ate it.

We know one thing for sure, local is changing and it is a problem in null sec. Until we know what changes are going to be implemented, these ideas are simply forum fodder.



Well they said they were going to change it due to incarna. But now there has been a massive reassignment so its not so clear they will need to.

So I don't see what this wll accomplish other than resolve an imagined problem and make solo/small scale pvp harder to find.


I'm not convinced it would make small scale PvP harder to find. On the contrary, it'll work against blob warfare... good luck moving a cloaked blob around. There still should be that blink in local when someone enters a system and transitions between being "entry cloaked" and activating their own cloak, so the observant will see that... with a spool up timer on most ships before they can light off a cyno you'll have abuse minimized, and ships prepared to escape the single covops that decloaks will survive. Yeah, things would change a bit. Not only would "afk cloaking" become a thing of the past, but so would "afk mining", "afk ratting", etc. Bots would be hit most brutally. Their programming that focuses on who's in local as to whether or not it's "safe" to undock... oh, they'd feel the pain. There would be a feast of bots available, which would ultimately result in mineral prices going up and maybe, just maybe, more industrial people thinking it's worth the risk now to mine in null, however instead of it being a solo affair it would be shared with a bodyguard or three.

Ultimately, as the economy shifts and null becomes more tempting to mine in (due to bots being laid waste to) you'll find smaller PvP chances increasing I'd think... but it wouldn't be free ganks on a hulk, you'd have to deal with his friends too.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#70 - 2011-10-24 15:27:43 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cearain wrote:
People will just start sitting cloaked around gates or bait ships. So small gangs will just get blobbed even more than they currently do. At least now small gangs can see many people in local in the same corp or alliance. Now even that limited information that helps reduce blobbing will be gone.

Here is the post that explains the problem. Of course, the op just ignores the questions it raises.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222866#post222866
I understand your concerns, but don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

I did have a longer post, but the forum ate it.

We know one thing for sure, local is changing and it is a problem in null sec. Until we know what changes are going to be implemented, these ideas are simply forum fodder.



Well they said they were going to change it due to incarna. But now there has been a massive reassignment so its not so clear they will need to.

So I don't see what this wll accomplish other than resolve an imagined problem and make solo/small scale pvp harder to find.


I'm not convinced it would make small scale PvP harder to find. On the contrary, it'll work against blob warfare... good luck moving a cloaked blob around. There still should be that blink in local when someone enters a system and transitions between being "entry cloaked" and activating their own cloak, so the observant will see that... with a spool up timer on most ships before they can light off a cyno you'll have abuse minimized, and ships prepared to escape the single covops that decloaks will survive. Yeah, things would change a bit. Not only would "afk cloaking" become a thing of the past, but so would "afk mining", "afk ratting", etc. Bots would be hit most brutally. Their programming that focuses on who's in local as to whether or not it's "safe" to undock... oh, they'd feel the pain. There would be a feast of bots available, which would ultimately result in mineral prices going up and maybe, just maybe, more industrial people thinking it's worth the risk now to mine in null, however instead of it being a solo affair it would be shared with a bodyguard or three.

Ultimately, as the economy shifts and null becomes more tempting to mine in (due to bots being laid waste to) you'll find smaller PvP chances increasing I'd think... but it wouldn't be free ganks on a hulk, you'd have to deal with his friends too.



This would also bring cohesion in more allainces and possibly condense them for protection against shadows.
We can then start suggesting stealth hunter ships and modules if this was implimented.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#71 - 2011-10-25 03:39:05 UTC
I don't suppose some CCP devs would mind sharing their perspective on this, or on what current thoughts are regarding local?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2011-10-25 03:58:47 UTC
I don't know if this will fix anything, but it sounds like an interesting mechanism that would add some complexity to the cloaking game.

Being from a wormhole, I always assume there might be a cloaked hostile. Unfortunately, there's no way of preparing for the cloakie ganks. The only defence is not playing, and not playing isn't fun. I just assume about 10% of my income will be paying ship lost and whatnot.

I try to reduce the lost by fitting my ships properly and not fighting in systems with any activity.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#73 - 2011-10-25 11:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cearain wrote:
People will just start sitting cloaked around gates or bait ships. So small gangs will just get blobbed even more than they currently do. At least now small gangs can see many people in local in the same corp or alliance. Now even that limited information that helps reduce blobbing will be gone.

Here is the post that explains the problem. Of course, the op just ignores the questions it raises.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222866#post222866
I understand your concerns, but don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

I did have a longer post, but the forum ate it.

We know one thing for sure, local is changing and it is a problem in null sec. Until we know what changes are going to be implemented, these ideas are simply forum fodder.



Well they said they were going to change it due to incarna. But now there has been a massive reassignment so its not so clear they will need to.

So I don't see what this wll accomplish other than resolve an imagined problem and make solo/small scale pvp harder to find.


I'm not convinced it would make small scale PvP harder to find. On the contrary, it'll work against blob warfare... good luck moving a cloaked blob around. There still should be that blink in local when someone enters a system and transitions between being "entry cloaked" and activating their own cloak, so the observant will see that... with a spool up timer on most ships before they can light off a cyno you'll have abuse minimized, and ships prepared to escape the single covops that decloaks will survive. .


Blobs won't have to move under this plan. They can just camp gares and bait ships that solo or small gangs may attack.

There will be no need for a cyno to blob people.

I think you should try some small gang and especially some solo pvp before you just say things that sound cool to you and oher wormholers. Then you will understand why its important that that we have at least some idea through local that there are not a bunch of cloaked ships sitting on grid with that ship we are about to attack.

Tahna Rouspel wrote:

Being from a wormhole, I always assume there might be a cloaked hostile. Unfortunately, there's no way of preparing for the cloakie ganks. The only defence is not playing, and not playing isn't fun..



This is very true. And it actually means there would be less strategy involved in pvp if they did this.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2011-10-25 11:09:13 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:


This would also bring cohesion in more allainces and possibly condense them for protection against shadows.
We can then start suggesting stealth hunter ships and modules if this was implimented.



Yes it will condense them into blobs. This is because for any group they attack they will never know if there is a huge blob of cloakies sitting on grid with them.

But do we need more blobs?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Wu Phat
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#75 - 2011-10-25 11:24:34 UTC
The only poeple I see upset about afk cloaking are bot owners. if you support trying to fix somthing that does not need to be fixed then you are a bot owner that is upset that some one is trying to stop you.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#76 - 2011-10-25 11:42:35 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:


This would also bring cohesion in more allainces and possibly condense them for protection against shadows.
We can then start suggesting stealth hunter ships and modules if this was implimented.



Yes it will condense them into blobs. This is because for any group they attack they will never know if there is a huge blob of cloakies sitting on grid with them.

But do we need more blobs?


So what kind of blobs are you talking about anyhow? The kind that uncloaks then has to wait 30 seconds before they can do anything while you giggle and warp off or burn to the gate? You're normal blob, if sitting there cloaked, will still fall victim to the decloak delay in being able to target. Take advantage of that delay, and fit properly.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Shey Danu
CSR Star Command
Citizen's Star Republic
#77 - 2011-10-25 17:31:49 UTC
+1
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#78 - 2011-10-26 00:48:29 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:


This would also bring cohesion in more allainces and possibly condense them for protection against shadows.
We can then start suggesting stealth hunter ships and modules if this was implimented.



Yes it will condense them into blobs. This is because for any group they attack they will never know if there is a huge blob of cloakies sitting on grid with them.

But do we need more blobs?


So what kind of blobs are you talking about anyhow? The kind that uncloaks then has to wait 30 seconds before they can do anything while you giggle and warp off or burn to the gate? You're normal blob, if sitting there cloaked, will still fall victim to the decloak delay in being able to target. Take advantage of that delay, and fit properly.


What are you talking about?

What in your op would prevent someone who unlcoaks from doing anything for 30 seconds after they uncloak?

If you engage someone at a gate you will not be able to burn to it and jump through before the blob that is sitting there on grid uncloaks and kills you.

Your posts and your killboard suggests you might not understand the actual pvp mechanics in eve.

Right now there are some people who still do solo and small scale pvp. At least now, without local being nerfed, they have some chance of being able to tell if a blob is sitting there on grid with whatever they intend to fight. Sure they are still taking a risk because they are solo or in a small gang but you are just making it even harder for them.

Whether it's sbs rapiers and arazus warping to the bait or the cloaked gang just sitting on grid with he bait until a small gang engages this would make pvp in eve stupidly blobby.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#79 - 2011-10-26 01:36:11 UTC
Cearain wrote:

What in your op would prevent someone who unlcoaks from doing anything for 30 seconds after they uncloak?


Check out the info on cloaks. See that Sensor Recalibration Time? That's how long it takes between uncloaking and when you can lock anything.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#80 - 2011-10-26 01:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
mxzf wrote:
Cearain wrote:

What in your op would prevent someone who unlcoaks from doing anything for 30 seconds after they uncloak?


Check out the info on cloaks. See that Sensor Recalibration Time? That's how long it takes between uncloaking and when you can lock anything.



Even a battleship with no senor booster can lock a frigate in under 30 seconds with a cloak. This is why I am wondering if he understands the mechanics relevant to pvp in eve.

I am asking the op where he gets the idea cloaked ships can't do anything for 30 seconds after they uncloak. Do you know what he is talking about?

edit: Ok looking at eft an uncensorboosted battleship won't lock a frigate in under 30 seconds. However, thats a battlship versus a frigate. Sealth bombers and rapiers will do fine

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815