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The answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Cloaking.

Author
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1 - 2011-10-19 16:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Heck with it... I'm just giving this it's own thread. Tired of having to repost it in every moronic "nerf afk cloak" thread that pops up seven times a freakin' hour.

Even though cloaking isn't broken and is working as intended, I once again offer this change to the system for consideration:


1. When a vessel cloaks, it gets removed from local. You cannot see the cloaked vessel (or pilot) anymore, after all, they're cloaked.

*** Note: The following changes to immediately disappearing from local were suggested by Onyx47. These seem highly reasonable and worth adding to the discussion:

a) Cloaker remains in local for a short period of time after cloaking. This enables you to see him in local even if he spams cloak as soon as he moves. 20 secs sounds reasonable since that's the session timer duration, combined with gate cloak which should not remove you from local and considering loading the system takes some time that would amount to a minimum of 25ish seconds the cloaker is visible in local.

b) Local reconnection delay for the cloaker after decloaking. Meaning, if you decloak your computer needs 30 seconds to recalibrate and reconnect to local channel. This timer is equal to current recloaking delay. Gates are however not affected by this and you show up in local right away. This means just pulsing your cloak to see local chat takes, at minimum, 30 seconds for you with addition of being visible in local for a minimum of 50 seconds. Of course, you need to stay decloaked longer to actually SEE what's in local.

*** End note ***


2. When a vessel cloaks, it also loses access to local. They can't see you... you can't see them. If you want to gather intel while cloaked, do it actively through use of dscan, probes, or simply going somewhere and watching. (This is a tried and tested methodology in wormholes that works just fine.)

3. When a vessel uncloaks, there's a delay in being able to fire off a cyno of approx 15 to 30 seconds (possibly 42), depending on balancing. This prevents abuse of the hot drop mechanic by allowing the aware an opportunity to act on the fact that there's a vessel uncloaking nearby.

Exception to #3 to consider: I'd consider allowing Black Ops (and possibly Recon) ships to not suffer the delay in firing a cyno. They're a special class of ship that should have this ability.

So, what do we gain from this (especially that the "nerf cloak" crowd fails to provide)?

Cloaks are allowed to act more like true cloaks. Intel gathering while cloaked becomes a more active affair. The overpowered intel tool called local remains effective for ships not cloaked. Cynos and hot drops are balanced to prevent abuse, but they should still be effective. Black Ops ships find a greater role. Null sec still retains the element of danger it deserves instead of being turned into Eve: Asteroid Adventure. Important to me: Wormholes don't take any hits due to cloaking mechanics being broken.

So there it is... what appears to be a well balanced tweak to cloaking and null space that should add a good bit to the game (instead of taking away from it). Cloaks, and covops especially, are allowed to truly function covertly in empire space adding a new twist to intel gathering.

And, most importantly, THERE WILL BE NO MORE "AFK CLOAKER" THREADS! Big smile

Addendum: Dr Karsun adds the idea of the onboard scanner being disabled while cloaked. It would add a little more penalty for cloaked vessels... worth adding to the discussion.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-10-19 17:55:51 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ultimate answer


I can get behind this.

And we might not get more "AFK CLOAKER" threads

We might get "OMG I WANT OLD LOCAL BACK" threads though Blink

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Satav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-19 17:58:37 UTC
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1

______________________________________________________________________________________

"Your Erebus is docked? How did that happen?" "It took a lot of pushing and grease....."
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#4 - 2011-10-19 18:01:34 UTC
Satav wrote:
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1


Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-19 18:19:20 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Satav wrote:
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1


Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.


Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#6 - 2011-10-19 18:24:33 UTC
Feligast wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Satav wrote:
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1


Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.


Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.


I'm not familiar with recons as of yet... if it makes sense to do so then by all means, this is an idea in progress, not something I'd consider set in stone. As a matter of fact, I'll modify it now...

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-19 18:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Feligast
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Feligast wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Satav wrote:
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1


Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.


Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.


I'm not familiar with recons as of yet... if it makes sense to do so then by all means, this is an idea in progress, not something I'd consider set in stone. As a matter of fact, I'll modify it now...


The entire point of recon ships is to penetrate deep behind enemy lines, throw up covert cynos or short-term regular cynos (most get a role bonus 10% reduction in cyno duration per level) and slip into the night. Recons are often paired with Black Ops battleships as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense.
Ardamalis
Black Rams
Radicalized Apes
#8 - 2011-10-19 19:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ardamalis
Confirming that the ultimate questions of Life, the Universe, and Cloaking have just been answered inside this thread.

+1

This idea needs to stay on top.
Sarina Berghil
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-10-19 19:10:52 UTC
I think it sounds fun, and balanced, and simple. And unlike a lot of game mechanics it actually sounds logic, which is just an added bonus.

I can imagine some submarine slang to evolve from a mechanic like this:

- Going active - turning off cloak to see who is in local.
- Going passive, silent running - turning on the cloak, losing some speed and awareness in the process.
- One ping - quickly uncloack and decloack to get a quick reading.

Is there any way to add the number 42 to this?

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#10 - 2011-10-19 19:15:10 UTC
Sarina Berghil wrote:

Is there any way to add the number 42 to this?



Done. Lol

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#11 - 2011-10-19 20:06:08 UTC
I came here ready to roll my eyes at another cloaking thread, but the title caught my eye and gave me a chuckle (I love HHGttG). I have to say though, this is one of the better suggestions I've seen on the matter.

At first glance atleast, this appears to solve pretty much all of the significant issues with cloaking. It doesn't change the fact that there's still someone there, but it lets you know when they're actually doing anything and when they're not.

One concern I have is that Stealth Bombers, with their instant locking, might be somewhat OP after this, if they enter your system when you're offline, you could be pointed before there's any indication at all of a hostile in the system. Yes, it's something WHers deal with every day, but there is a large difference between constantly changing WHs and static gates. I'm not sure how large a concern this is, but it's something I thought I'd point out.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#12 - 2011-10-19 20:25:06 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Heck with it... I'm just giving this it's own thread. Tired of having to repost it in every moronic "nerf afk cloak" thread that pops up seven times a freakin' hour.

Even though cloaking isn't broken and is working as intended, I once again offer this change to the system for consideration:


1. When a vessel cloaks, it gets removed from local. You cannot see the cloaked vessel (or pilot) anymore, after all, they're cloaked.

2. When a vessel cloaks, it also loses access to local. They can't see you... you can't see them. If you want to gather intel while cloaked, do it actively through use of dscan, probes, or simply going somewhere and watching. (This is a tried and tested methodology in wormholes that works just fine.)

3. When a vessel uncloaks, there's a delay in being able to fire off a cyno of approx 15 to 30 seconds (possibly 42), depending on balancing. This prevents abuse of the hot drop mechanic by allowing the aware an opportunity to act on the fact that there's a vessel uncloaking nearby.

Exception to #3 to consider: I'd consider allowing Black Ops (and possibly Recon) ships to not suffer the delay in firing a cyno. They're a special class of ship that should have this ability.

So, what do we gain from this (especially that the "nerf cloak" crowd fails to provide)?

Cloaks are allowed to act more like true cloaks. Intel gathering while cloaked becomes a more active affair. The overpowered intel tool called local remains effective for ships not cloaked. Cynos and hot drops are balanced to prevent abuse, but they should still be effective. Black Ops ships find a greater role. Null sec still retains the element of danger it deserves instead of being turned into Eve: Asteroid Adventure. Important to me: Wormholes don't take any hits due to cloaking mechanics being broken.

So there it is... what appears to be a well balanced tweak to cloaking and null space that should add a good bit to the game (instead of taking away from it). Cloaks, and covops especially, are allowed to truly function covertly in empire space adding a new twist to intel gathering.

And, most importantly, THERE WILL BE NO MORE "AFK CLOAKER" THREADS! Big smile


You sir win an internets serious business award.
+1

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#13 - 2011-10-19 20:58:31 UTC
before I even read the opening post, I approved of this thread for its level of class. Reading the OP, however, has only served to strengthen my stance that this should be put into effect ASAP. Way too much afk-cloak-faggotry out there

Where the science gets done

Jax Slizard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-10-19 21:11:37 UTC
Sounds better than practically every other suggestion.

How about just allowing anything that can fit covert ops cloak to instant cyno, while regular cloaks have a delay? (And give blops a covops cloak...)
Svenjabi Xiang
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#15 - 2011-10-19 22:58:16 UTC
Forums ate the longer post.

Like points 1 and 2.

Adjust recalibration delay on covops line (adding covops cloak to BLOPs) using the cloaking skill and the role bonuses to nothing and I'll go with a cyno delay equal to roughly 6 seconds. It's difficult enough setting up drops to catch the normal targets and intelligent sub-caps will evade drops at 6 seconds. Supercap ratters? No mercy.
Mitherien
Hoarfrost Dredger's
#16 - 2011-10-19 23:00:34 UTC
+1 and bump for a good idea.
Goose99
#17 - 2011-10-20 01:51:12 UTC
Feligast wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Feligast wrote:
Satav wrote:
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1




Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.


I'm not familiar with recons as of yet... if it makes sense to do so then by all means, this is an idea in progress, not something I'd consider set in stone. As a matter of fact, I'll modify it now...


The entire point of recon ships is to penetrate deep behind enemy lines, throw up covert cynos or short-term regular cynos (most get a role bonus 10% reduction in cyno duration per level) and slip into the night.


That description is the intended function of black ops, not recons. Once Recons, one of the most popular ship type out there, is given the same ability, there will be no reason to fly the black ops, the least popular ship type. The advantage should be given to black ops and covert cyno only.

Quote:
Recons are often paired with Black Ops battleships as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense.

________ are often paired with Black Ops battleships as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense.
Recons are often paired with _________ as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense.

Fill the blank with anything. Black Ops are so rare, and Recons so numerous, when you see a Black Ops, there's probably a Recon in fleet, among other things. When you see any fleet, there's probably a Recon in it.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#18 - 2011-10-20 03:26:08 UTC
I'm fine with all this.. though I confess the cyno nerf scares me abit.. it's possible to over do this nerf a little.. though good call on the black ops and recon exception.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-10-20 11:12:16 UTC
Free bump with content.

I think the recons can get no time delay to fire covert cyno's, with original delay to normal cyno's.

Black Ops could get no delay on covert and normal cyno.

Thoughts?

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Shingorash
Sons of Luminaire
#20 - 2011-10-20 11:36:39 UTC
Feligast wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Satav wrote:
hmm,

I like it.

Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.

+1


Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.


Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.


T3's should be able to do it as well, there should be a delay on all other ships.
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