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The Caldari Issues

Author
Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#21 - 2013-05-11 11:17:55 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Please explain of what benefit does Caldari get from hybrids, the only ships that make good use of them is the Merlin and the Moa. Hybrids are absolute garbage for the Caldari, any Caldari Missile Boat will always and easily out perform a Caldari Gunboat in PvE and PvP, all in all f u c k the hybrids off and go full missiles.



So why are railgun rokh and naga fleets a thing in nullsec? Why is the blaster naga also a thing in nullsec?



Please, show me a missile boat, besides MAYBE a HAM tengu, that can pull in 25-30+ million isk per tick? Nightmare mode, one that costs less than 150mil fully fit.



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-05-11 12:43:41 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Please explain of what benefit does Caldari get from hybrids, the only ships that make good use of them is the Merlin and the Moa. Hybrids are absolute garbage for the Caldari, any Caldari Missile Boat will always and easily out perform a Caldari Gunboat in PvE and PvP, all in all f u c k the hybrids off and go full missiles.



So why are railgun rokh and naga fleets a thing in nullsec? Why is the blaster naga also a thing in nullsec?



Please, show me a missile boat, besides MAYBE a HAM tengu, that can pull in 25-30+ million isk per tick? Nightmare mode, one that costs less than 150mil fully fit.



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.
Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries
#23 - 2013-05-11 13:06:03 UTC
The only real downside to missiles is flight time. They have the nearly perfect hit consistency, even when targets are moving. Reducing flight time would make missiles so damn overpowered, everyone else would cry to get their DPS increased or something.

Missiles are fine as they sit, imo.
Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2013-05-11 13:31:42 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Please explain of what benefit does Caldari get from hybrids, the only ships that make good use of them is the Merlin and the Moa. Hybrids are absolute garbage for the Caldari, any Caldari Missile Boat will always and easily out perform a Caldari Gunboat in PvE and PvP, all in all f u c k the hybrids off and go full missiles.



So why are railgun rokh and naga fleets a thing in nullsec? Why is the blaster naga also a thing in nullsec?



Please, show me a missile boat, besides MAYBE a HAM tengu, that can pull in 25-30+ million isk per tick? Nightmare mode, one that costs less than 150mil fully fit.



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-05-11 14:10:39 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#26 - 2013-05-11 15:12:24 UTC
Grunnax, the reason hybrids suck on Caldari is because medium railguns are horrible. Small rails are ok, you can conceivably put those on Merlins and such. Small, medium and large blasters aren't riddled with problems like they were before. Large railguns and the Rokh/Naga... I need to say nothing more about them.

The problem you highlighted earlier in this thread about "Hybrids suck on Caldari" can be reduced to "Medium railguns suck period", considering your Ferox example (and the Ferox isn't a good example anyways, because it has no damage bonus which honestly does nothing to help it with medium railguns).

Medium railguns have always been utterly awful. You know what other weapon system they share the "probably the worst weapons in the game" title with? It's heavy missiles, thanks to that extremely heavyhanded nerf a while ago.

Not supported, this change is boring and kills half of the Caldari doctrine for no good reason whatsoever. If you're caldari, you should train both hybrids AND missiles; only training for missiles and then wanting hybrids gone because you're lazy is a sign of being bad.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#27 - 2013-05-11 16:04:42 UTC
@OP, as many already stated turning every ship from caldari into missile boat would really break the slightest balance we have this day. However I do support the idea that most of the hulls should be missile ship but it should be long term goal for CCP. First nissile weapon system would have to be balanced so that it could compare to other weapon systems. At the time being missiles are not viable weapon system for many activity and it has to be change before we can return to this subject.

I started a thread that involves missile and other weapon system balancing. Feel free to comment and speak your mind. About the Caldari. Hopefully CSM will have an eye for it. Racial ship and system balancing
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#28 - 2013-05-11 16:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: zbaaca
i think main problem with caldari BS that while havin' missiles as main weapon ccp messed up . they gave us rokh with 8 turrets while leavin' raven with 6 missiles. i say "WTF ?" amars have 8 turrets matars have same amount. & gallente only 7 . navy ones have additional slots for tanking . why do we have lesser amount of missile hardpoints ? and navy raven have additional hardpoint . every one have hi dps BS & defensive one like mael & tempest for example. why our alternative ship is navy scorp ?

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#29 - 2013-05-11 16:43:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?


He is indeed full of crap.
Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-05-11 17:57:44 UTC
Rented wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?


He is indeed full of crap.


Tell that to my Raven and Noctis :)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#31 - 2013-05-12 13:15:40 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?


He's full of ****, no one makes 150 mill an hour in high sec running l4's in a raven, 50 mill is about it when you get a really good mission with good bounties and high quality loot/salvage. He's obviously going to claim that we're all doing it wrong, but I know I am right. Missioning with a tengu, might, just might push you up to 100 mill if you blitz them all real quick and ignore the salvage, choosing to do another mission instead. But there we go, what I do I know, I'm just a bitter vet who's been at this since 2008.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#32 - 2013-05-12 13:17:35 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?


Railguins are in a really good place right now, if you use the right ammo at the right ranges they perform really well and are in some ways better than projectiles.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#33 - 2013-05-12 14:20:11 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?


He's full of ****, no one makes 150 mill an hour in high sec running l4's in a raven, 50 mill is about it when you get a really good mission with good bounties and high quality loot/salvage. He's obviously going to claim that we're all doing it wrong, but I know I am right. Missioning with a tengu, might, just might push you up to 100 mill if you blitz them all real quick and ignore the salvage, choosing to do another mission instead. But there we go, what I do I know, I'm just a bitter vet who's been at this since 2008.


I think with my golem, on a good day when i get chains of AE, I might get pushed up to 70-80 mil (100 if i have a friend salvage them and we split the money)
In nullsec though, a good raven can match the golems missioning 70-80mil/hr (thats not getting sentient spawns) with just T2 gear. Even on drone space soloing... what were they, patrols?
Even more money would be gotten on my tach abby though whilst doing the real big sites, hoards i think. with a carrier and a maelstom.
Always wish i had broguht my golem out there though, that thing would have decimated the sites (enemies spawn al in 40km range, all are weak to mjolnir rage torps)


There is a bit of credibility to 100mil/hr in highsec though. A torpraven can eat missions like AE in minutes, this is cause a torp raven is usually worthless, but AE is a close range battle with high incomign dps. It will perform similar to the golem in this mission (added bonus of it can carry a 5th BCS which will squeeze out a little more damage), And AE has great salvage, so a good noctis following right behind with you will equal out to almost 100mil/hr.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-05-12 14:32:15 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Hey guys,
Ok straight to business. First of all the problems of the Caldari is the fact that they share a weapon system, hybrids with the Gallente, guns should be completely removed from the Caldari and leave hybrids to the Gallente and let Caldari focus on their specialty which is missiles. This would also mean removing all missile focused ships from the other races except Khanid Innovation ships as they were in asylum with the Caldari for a period in Lore. This would mean restoring the Cyclone to a Autocannon boat, Typhoon is changed to a Autocannon boat like a Mini Panther, Talwar changes to an Artillery boat etc…
Caldari changing to Missiles being their only weapon system the following ships would be:
Merlin – Rocket Brawler
Harpy – Rocket Brawler
Cormorant – Light Missile Kitter
Moa – Heavy Assault Missile Brawler
Eagle - Heavy Assault Missile Brawler
Ferox – Heavy Missile Kitter
Vulture – Heavy Assault Missile Brawler
Rokh – Torpedo Brawler
The second issue is the fact that missiles take too long to reach their target in terms of sniping, so to fix this the flight time needs to be drastically dropped and the flight velocity drastically increased.
Reduce flight time by 75% and increase flight velocity by 75% to keep the same current ranges, but makes the missiles travel faster. Note these are with all skills 0

Rockets – 0.5(-1.5)s flight time / 9000(+6750)msec = 4,500 meters range
Heavy Assault Missiles – 1(-3)s flight time / 9,000(+6750)msec = 9,000 meters range
Torpedos – 1.5(-4.5)s flight time / 9,000(+7500)msec = 13,500 meters range [increased the velocity a bit more because of the issue with Torpedos not flying further than Heavy Assault Missiles.]

Light Missiles – 1.25(-3.75)s flight time / 15,000(+11250)msec = 1,8750 meters range
Heavy Missiles – 1.625(-4.875)s flight time / 17,200(+12900)msec = 27,950 meters range
Cruise Missiles – 5(-15)s flight time / 15000(+11250)msec = 75,000 meters range

Now to address the issue of no counters to missiles other that Dampener and ECM which doesn't really work because of FoF Missiles.
Defender Gatling Gun – Works like a Defender Missile, but it is its own Weapon, it does not have a Hardpoint requirement, you can fit on any ship like you can with Neutralizers and Salvagers. Destroys one missile in flight per cycle, can only fit one per ship and there are Small, Medium and Large Class, meaning you need a Large for Cruise or Torps for example. Bigger systems can’t hit smaller class missiles.

This I feel would set Caldari more apart from everything else and fix their problems.

Your proposed "fix" sounds like something CCP devs would do... after years of hearing caldari pilots complaining they just slightly boost some numbers and stealthly nerf others so the change is +-0. After the flight time would be finally reduced close to zero can we even call them missiles anymore? It's just another gun.

In my opinion missiles as weapon platform need much more work to actually work than some minor number tweaks...

No one never ever fitting defender missiles but TD's etc being commonly used is not a good argument but it's still telling something... missiles aren't that big threat.

Also i think it's fine that we have 2 weapon systems for each race and there are some good hybrid weapon ships for caldari. The problem however is that there should be PRIMARY weapon system for each race and that race should have the most advanced ships for them. This will not be the case for caldari missiles anymore after Odyssey...
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#35 - 2013-05-13 06:53:41 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Please explain of what benefit does Caldari get from hybrids, the only ships that make good use of them is the Merlin and the Moa. Hybrids are absolute garbage for the Caldari, any Caldari Missile Boat will always and easily out perform a Caldari Gunboat in PvE and PvP, all in all f u c k the hybrids off and go full missiles.

This post has been made in ignorance, by the looks of things. The OP has only got the perspective of a mission runner and so is demanding a change with a rather narrow view of the actual change it would make to the game overall and the rest of the players. This must be the case otherwise he would be aware of the many nullsec Caldari doctrines, most of which are hybrid fits. Just because you prefer missiles to guns for missioning doesn't mean that all Caldari ships should be missile boats.

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.

Absolute twaddle. Whilst I now live in nullsec and so don't generally do lvl4 missions I do sometimes clone jump back for a bit of brainless isk production and I can tell you that a Raven and a Noctis do not make you 150 mil/hour. With the best set of missions possible you might just about pull 70-80mill per hour with those two ships but that is really with optimal missions and lucky loot table. That is certainly not the norm.

Sounds to me like the OP has no knowledge of anything other than mission running and doesn't really understand how to use guns.
Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2013-05-13 07:34:02 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:



Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.



If that is even remotley true, then put me on the 'remove all level four missions from highsec' boat. Somehow though, I think you're exaggerating.


Then your obviously doing the level 4's wrong.



I haven't run a level four in years. I live in null, and that's better than nullsec anom money. If you can make that for absolutely zero risk in a ******* raven, something is seriously wrong with highsec income.

This is a derail though. What is wrong with railgun rokhs and nagas, both of which are used in a lot of fleets?


He's full of ****, no one makes 150 mill an hour in high sec running l4's in a raven, 50 mill is about it when you get a really good mission with good bounties and high quality loot/salvage. He's obviously going to claim that we're all doing it wrong, but I know I am right. Missioning with a tengu, might, just might push you up to 100 mill if you blitz them all real quick and ignore the salvage, choosing to do another mission instead. But there we go, what I do I know, I'm just a bitter vet who's been at this since 2008.


the raven costs 150mil with fiting you twit, and it makes 70-80 mil per hour
FUARK!!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Grunnax Aurelius
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#37 - 2013-05-13 07:35:44 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Please explain of what benefit does Caldari get from hybrids, the only ships that make good use of them is the Merlin and the Moa. Hybrids are absolute garbage for the Caldari, any Caldari Missile Boat will always and easily out perform a Caldari Gunboat in PvE and PvP, all in all f u c k the hybrids off and go full missiles.

This post has been made in ignorance, by the looks of things. The OP has only got the perspective of a mission runner and so is demanding a change with a rather narrow view of the actual change it would make to the game overall and the rest of the players. This must be the case otherwise he would be aware of the many nullsec Caldari doctrines, most of which are hybrid fits. Just because you prefer missiles to guns for missioning doesn't mean that all Caldari ships should be missile boats.

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Normal Raven, run level 4 missions making 70-80mil per hour, 150mil minimum fully fit.

Absolute twaddle. Whilst I now live in nullsec and so don't generally do lvl4 missions I do sometimes clone jump back for a bit of brainless isk production and I can tell you that a Raven and a Noctis do not make you 150 mil/hour. With the best set of missions possible you might just about pull 70-80mill per hour with those two ships but that is really with optimal missions and lucky loot table. That is certainly not the norm.

Sounds to me like the OP has no knowledge of anything other than mission running and doesn't really understand how to use guns.


Come bring your carebear ass down to low sec and come find me, " OP has no knowledge of anything other than mission running and doesn't really understand how to use guns." what a load of profiling comming from you...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#38 - 2013-05-13 07:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Come bring your carebear ass down to low sec and come find me, " OP has no knowledge of anything other than mission running and doesn't really understand how to use guns." what a load of profiling comming from you...


Since you clearly have no knowledge of how to use gunships I'd say you're right, it was a load of profiling. Correct profiling by the looks of things Blink

Also, accusing someone of being a carebear is really a very "highsec" thing to do. Been a while since I've heard anyone use that word but then I guess I've been in nullsec for some time now so not really had anything to do with high sec mission runners like yourself.

As for coming to low sec to find you, {insert generic insult here}. How's about you come find me instead if you're going to have a petulant little baby strop.

(edited for bad spelling)
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#39 - 2013-05-13 08:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
He's full of ****


the raven costs 150mil with fiting you twit, and it makes 70-80 mil per hour
FUARK!!!!


So she misunderstood your easily misunderstood post. That doesn't make her a twit. That makes you a bad communicator. And she's right, you're full of ****, clearly.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2013-05-13 09:23:28 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:


the raven costs 150mil with fiting you twit, and it makes 70-80 mil per hour
FUARK!!!!



Then it still needs a tremendous nerf, the only way I can top that in nullsec is with some incredibly specialised fits which will be obsolete once the patch lands. Nobody should pull in 70-80 mil with absolutely no risk at all.

Make the raven into a mid-range rail brawler. That should work. Roll
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