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A proposal for FW
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ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#101 - 2013-06-05 11:02:04 UTC
the first part was the end to your lovely BS story of what would have happened...


Everyone knew the value of amarr lp but really the only thing worth anything at that point was the battleships and EANMs dont forget nulli put amarr in a nice place at t4 people cashed out then, so people knew the value of there lp its just that minnies shop had alot more saleable items thats why it swung back so fast

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#102 - 2013-06-05 13:17:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
If I remember correctly the downtime issue was actually fixed before inferno. Balancing the rats didn't happen until after inferno though, thats true.

After downtime issue still exists and has never been fixed. It has been mitigated by the additional spawns (The novice, small, and medium plexes spawning in the same system every 30 minutes).


Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#103 - 2013-06-05 13:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
the first part was the end to your lovely BS story of what would have happened...


In your earlier post you say:

ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
...as amarr start flipping systems a few at a time



Is that what would have happened with the cashout or what happens now? I'm sorry its just not making any sense. No one should be "flipping systems a few at a time" with a cashout system. So its hard to know what you are talking about.

ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

Everyone knew the value of amarr lp but really the only thing worth anything at that point was the battleships and EANMs dont forget nulli put amarr in a nice place at t4 people cashed out then, so people knew the value of there lp its just that minnies shop had alot more saleable items thats why it swung back so fast



The minnies shop might be a bit better I really don't know. Yes minmatar was more in vogue than amarr at the time. But slicers were better than firetails. I think the lp stores are somewhat comperable. Its not true that eanms and battleships were the only things worth anything at the time we hit tier 4. I saw the disaster coming so had a small stockpile of slicers and navy bses that I sold for a large profit. I don't remember how much but I think I was selling slicers for about 40 mill.


X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
If I remember correctly the downtime issue was actually fixed before inferno. Balancing the rats didn't happen until after inferno though, thats true.

After downtime issue still exists and has never been fixed. It has been mitigated by the additional spawns (The novice, small, and medium plexes spawning in the same system every 30 minutes).




Ok. Whatever ccp did to mitigate the issue happened before inferno. I don't think they have done anything about that issue since then.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Anna Djan
Banana Corp
#104 - 2013-06-09 20:56:43 UTC
So you'r "fix" for FW which is designed for small engagements is to make it have null mechanics, and large entities only?

-.- fook off.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#105 - 2013-06-13 16:02:54 UTC
~~~



So, idk, but i'll just present a few of my ideas towards FW, give some rough explanations, and hope that the 6k characters are enough for this...


First:

There's a lot of ISK to be made of FW. However, we're not on the inflationary side of it, we're distributing the wealth the EVE base has accumulated. We make this ISK by turning in LP we make for items other players want. We gain the LP by orbiting some sites in FW space, and our income is depending on the size of the plex, the current Tier our faction is holding, as well as the number of players that are on the button when it finishes.

Which leads to following behavior: Everyone jumps into a cheap ass frigate, flies into a plex in hostile space, kills the rat and goes idle until something shows up on dscan. Then either PvP mode is engaged, Cloak get's mashed, or they warp out. Unless it's some system of minor or major importance, it's mostly the latter two.
So basically, what we have is a payout system that actually favors the cowards, not the ones willing to fight for their plex.


Therefor, i propose a LP-gain change that might look like the following:

Upon landing in a site a second, not necessarily visible timer will start for the pilot who entered the site. This timer will continue to run as long as he is in the complex and within range of the button. It will pause once the pilot cloaks up or get's out of the range of the button, and will continue counting once the pilot is actively partaking in running the button's timer. Warping out of the site (going offgrid) will result in a reset of this timer.

Now, why is there even a timer?

For each minute this timer is counting upon completion of the site, he will get a percentage of the possible payout a site can provide, which might look like the following:

10% of the payout a novice site provides per minute the timer is having, rounded up.
6.7% of the payout a small site provides per minute the timer is having, rounded up.
5% of the payout a medium or large site provides per minute the timer is having, rounded up.

The LP a site pays should remain the same as it is now, however, it should not be shared between all players in the site, but just be a value that get's modified for everyone based on the time he actually helped conquering the plex. Of course, this would mean a possible inflation (and blobbing) of plexes just to farm LP in a big gang, so a plex should also have a hard cap of LP he can payout.

Just as an example here:

A novice in offensive plexing at tier 2 will pay 10k LP right now upon completion, shared between everyone within range of the button and not cloaked equally.

Scenario1:
1 player inside, 10k LP, even if he just warped in and finished a plex someone else was running but had to bail / got killed shortly before. The guy(s) actually running the timer to that point will get nothing in this case, which is fair, they're not finishing their job here.

Scenario 2: Player A starts the plex, at 10 seconds left, Player B warps in or decloaks and gets half the share. He did not contribute to the capturing of the site in any meaningful way, but still get's half the LP.

Scenario 3: Player A is Cal, Player B is Gal. Player A starts deplexing a system. On 1 minute left of the timer, Player B comes in, blasts player A to pieces and now runs the timer for 19 minutes. He will get 10k LP unless scenario 2 happens.

Scenario 4: A gang of a few pilots, let's just assume 5 here, are willing to push a hostile system further towards the vulnerable state. For this, they have to capture plexes. And if the enemies are defending the system, it's best to clump up all together in one plex, and deal with the reduced LP payout. Everyone will get 2k LP.


So, we have a huge discrepancy here, at least in my opinion. Some people 'work hard' for capturing a plex like in scenario 3. They are, however, getting paid miserably, just because they had to run a timer for nearly double the time as usual. Some people don't contribute at all, and get paid fully, like in scenario 1. And some people choose the risk-averse LP farm-o-rama way and get a good share of the LP someone else 'worked' for. I think most of the people who take fw at least in some way serious don't like the farmers.
And some guys who are contributing towards their factions warzone control are getting paid less than everone else, because they team up to achieve their goals, like in scenario 4.

So with a new, effort-based payout, how about the following:

A site will have a raw value of LP, just like they have now: 10k for a novice at Tier 2, 17.5k for a small, 25k for a medium, and 30k for a large. This payout get's modified by the time spent capturing the complex per player, up to a maximum of 3 players per site, like the following:

Maximum payout of a site is: Timer a pilot is having * 5%(6.7%/10%)*LPValue * Amount of Players (max 3).
Individual payout would be: Timer a pilot is having * 5%(6.7%/10%)*LPValue

If several pilots join the site at different times and it's more than 3, all the LP players get (the 3 highest count here) are added up and split between the pilots proportionally to the time they spent there. Player A ran the site for 20 min, player B for 10, player C for 5 and player D for 1, the actual distribution would look like the following:

20+10+5+1 = 36 Payout-Units. The LP of Player A, B and C will get added up. For a large at tier 2 this would be: 30k for A, 15k for B, 7.5k for C, makes a total of 52.5k LP. These LP now get divided by 36. This will make a Payout unit for this site be worth 1458,33 LP. Player A will get 20 payout units, which would be 29166 LP. Player B will get 10 units, which would be 14583 LP. Player C will get 5 units, which will be 7292 LP. Player D will get 1 payout unit, which will be 1458 LP.

2BContinued
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#106 - 2013-06-13 16:30:30 UTC
Now I'd like to sketch out the effects this payout-scheme would have.

Since warping out of a site resets your timer, people in for the ISK would be advised to actually bring a ship into the plex and try capturing it for real, even if someone shows up to brawl for it.

Bringing a cloaky frig into a plex? You cloak, your timer stops, if your faction conquers the plex afterwards you don't get paid out fully, and you are very unlikely to actually leech LP from your militiamembers.
Bringing a frigate into a medium? The minute a cruiser shows up on short, you have to leave and your timer is reset. No full payout for you if you re-enter later!
You're killing off a wartarget, start running down the timer on your own and actually capture the plex? Here's an example:
You're at Tier 2, you enter a hostile system, warp to a novice with a wt in it who's deplexing. You enter the site, it's almost done, you kill the wt and then run the timer for 19 minutes. You will get 19*10%*10kLP. This is 19k. For a novice. Because, well, you know, you fought for it and spent 19 minutes in it.


What would this change in the behaviour of people plexing? Not much for novices. But a hell lot for mediums. If you don't bring something that can sit in a medium and fight there, you're very unlikely getting good LP out of it.

So, we would either see: Mediums and Larges not being taken at all, or we would see gangs and/or actually cruisers in various flavour capturing these.

LP-Farmers who don't put any effort other than cloaking, warping and noting timers of active plexes other militia members are currently running will not be making much LP. Farmers that just join a site someone else is already capturing will not cut off those guys LP gain, or will only marginally impact it if it's a gang capturing the plex.

If you have some ideas about the meta this would impact (like how fast are systems climbing in contested status etc, what will be the price impacts on the market etc etc), please post them here.



Another idea:

Lately, 2 buddies and me were sitting in a system, when a WT entered, a Mission popped up, and a Tengu showed up on long range. Hungry for blood like we were, we immediately warped to the mission in our frigates in hope of a tengu kill. We were very dissappointed when the Caldari State rats in there ignored the Gallente FW Tengu and started shooting us. With 3 frigates suffering from NPC dps and just slowly being able to chew through that tengu's active tank, this whole thing took us so long that a random minmatar roam jumped in, warped to the mission after some negotiations in local, and blasted us to bits and pieces. The tengu was in structure, barely holding. As you can imagine, we were quite upset. Not by the minmatar pilots who showed up, but by the Caldari State rats that shot their very own members. If it wasn't for this, we would have killed the tengu. With the help of NPCs, of course, but if a tengu pilot is so stupid to warp into a mission with WTs in system without checking anything, he should actually have deserved to get blown up.

So what i am suggesting here now is a overhaul of FW missions. I really like it that they're doable in Stealthbombers, at least on Minmatar side, however it's not fair that amarr can't do that just because their mission rats throw TPs on them and the BCs or BSes will eat them alive.

So it would be awesome if the FW missions actually had rats in them that behaved like the ones in the plexes do. Just don't shoot your own guys. They don't have to be equal in stats, i think that would be kinda rough.

If this change in agression mechanic actually makes FW missions exploitable by starting a Mission for Caldari, then bring in a Gallente FW toon and blow up the mission objective, a general overhaul of all the missions might be necessary:

Possible solutions are severe standing penalty for shooting your own militia rats in missions, or: New Missions that have a bunker as objective that is, like the ihub, only targetable by the directly opposing faction.
Now don't throw in the random faction mission rats, but make these missions homogenous abroad the board. Same ewar (webs, scrams, neuts), same ships in stats with only different damagetypes and resists, same tank potential, same objectives.

Hell, you could even make those missions impact the capture status of the solar system. You could also force the mission locations into the nearest hostile system from the agent giving you that mission. There could be a timer on the bunker that allows the oppsite faction to close the mission site and get rewarded LP for it. L1 = Novice, L2 = small, L3 = medium, L4 =large.


Basically, that's my ideas for now on how to improve FW. I'm having some ideas for the upgrade levels of single solar systems too, but need to flesh them out a bit before dropping them here.


Syrias Bizniz, over and out.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#107 - 2013-07-10 21:23:29 UTC
Shameless selfbump.


Not sure if this thing even has been read, but if so:

What's your thoughts on the idea up there ^ ?

Also, would it be interesting to have the warzone control tiers removed, and just modify the LP-Value gained by the actual warzone control?


Currently:

0-20% :: -50% LP gain
20.1-40% :: Normal LP gain
40.1 -60% :: +75% LP gain
60.1 -80% :: +150% LP gain
80.1%++ :: +225% LP gain


Basically, this mechanic encourages players to keep their LP instead of donate them to the ihubs because +1 point to warzone control wouldn't really matter. It also grants maximum benefits at 80.1% of warzone control. What i'm also not sure off: Does this apply do missions, too? I can't see how '+225%' will make L4 missions give 70k LP. This looks like it's multipliued with 75% three times in a row. Not sure though.

So, how about a model, where the LP gain is modified by the actual warzone control the faction is currently at, rather than fix tiers?

A possible formula might look like the following:

'Basic LP * ( 0,5 * 2^( 0,5+ ( WarZonecontrol*2,5 ))) = LP Payout @ WarZoneControl_in_% * 1

So, the 'Basic LP' are the LP a Site gives currently at Tier 2.

For a Novice, this is 10k LP.

The current LP payout scheme for a Novice at different Tiers is the following:

Tier 1 --- 5000
Tier 2 --- 10000
Tier 3 --- 17500
Tier 4 --- 25000
Tier 5 --- 32500


With the new formula, it would look like this:



10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0*2,5)) = 7071 LP ::: 0% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+(0,1*2,5)) = 8409 LP ::: 10% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,2*2,5)) = 10000 LP ::: 20% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,3*2,5)) = 11892 LP ::: 30% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,4*2,5)) = 14142 LP ::: 40% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,5*2,5)) = 16818 LP ::: 50% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,6*2,5)) = 20000 LP ::: 60% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,7*2,5)) = 23784 LP ::: 70% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,8*2,5)) = 28284 LP ::: 80% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+0,9*2,5)) = 33636 LP ::: 90% Warzone Control

10000 * (0,5*2^(0,5+1*2,5)) = 40000 LP ::: 100% Warzone Control




You can see, how at Tier 1 (0-20%) the payout from the current system is lower. At Tier 2 (20%), the payout is the same.
At Tier 3, (40%), the payout is higher. At Tier 4( 60%), the payout is higher. At Tier 5 (80%) the payout is higher. Above Tier 5 (80,1%++) there is a point (****, my math is bad... need to work on that oO) at which the payout from the new formula will be equal to the payout of the current one. Beyond this point people will make more LP than with the current formula.

Conclusion: With the forumla presented, every point of LP donated into an ihub counts. Every time a barreer is broken and a new System Upgrade Level is achieved, your faction gains in warzone control, and the whole militia's LP-gains are increased instantly. While at a very low warzone control, your milita will make more LP than currently. At the current borders for the different tiers, your militia will always make less LP. The higher the warzone control rises, the more LP your militia will make. If you're somewhere in between current tiers, you will make more LP than before. And if you're above Tier 5, the maximum gain in LP is up to 23% higher than currently, starting somewhere at 88% warzone control up to 100%.

What are the benefits of this? More LP for your militia below 20% WarZone control. More LP for your militia when close to current Next-Tier-Border. More LP for your militia from 88.1% warzone control on. LESS LP for your militia at current Tier-Borders (Which would be irrelevant anyways).




....


Any thoughts on this, for example, why such a calculation for LP would be bad?
And don't bring the argument 'Oh my, how should i ever know how much LP i will make?!?', because it wouldn't be so hard to implement an info-window into the warzone tab where it shows you how many LP you'd make / what your militia's LP-Modifier is.





Regards, and in best hope someone contributes,

Syrias Bizniz
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#108 - 2013-07-10 22:03:05 UTC
For the love of all that is good, give us a tl;dr version of this manifesto.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#109 - 2013-07-10 22:07:29 UTC
tl;dr

- AFK Cloaky Stabbed farmers are bad. Wanna get LP from a medium? Fight for it.

- Tiers are bad. Modify LP gain by actual warzone control rather than blocks in which the payout stays the same and any small contribution to the warzone control doesn't make a difference.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#110 - 2013-07-11 02:07:51 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
You're killing off a wartarget, start running down the timer on your own and actually capture the plex? Here's an example:
You're at Tier 2, you enter a hostile system, warp to a novice with a wt in it who's deplexing. You enter the site, it's almost done, you kill the wt and then run the timer for 19 minutes. You will get 19*10%*10kLP. This is 19k. For a novice. Because, well, you know, you fought for it and spent 19 minutes in it. .


Under your system do you get the extra lp for the kill or just because of the extra time?

I understand that if they warp off it will reset under your system so you probably won't find a timer at 19 with no one in it. But what if they warp off after you enter, reset? What if they fight and manage to warp off in structure? What if you destroy their ship and they warp the pod out? What if they cloak? I'm just curious how it will work under these scenarios.


IMO having the timer completely reset might be a bit harsh.

The whole timer rollback or reset will lead to more pvp, but I'm not sure how the other changes to the mechanics will promote pvp.


Syrias Bizniz wrote:

Another idea:

Lately, 2 buddies and me were sitting in a system, when a WT entered, a Mission popped up, and a Tengu showed up on long range. Hungry for blood like we were, we immediately warped to the mission in our frigates in hope of a tengu kill. We were very dissappointed when the Caldari State rats in there ignored the Gallente FW Tengu and started shooting us. With 3 frigates suffering from NPC dps and just slowly being able to chew through that tengu's active tank, this whole thing took us so long that a random minmatar roam jumped in, warped to the mission after some negotiations in local, and blasted us to bits and pieces. The tengu was in structure, barely holding. As you can imagine, we were quite upset. .



I agree this is ****. It used to not be the case but they changed it. People in missions have even more protection now then ever. I think you should propose that your own militia not attack you unless you attack it first.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#111 - 2013-07-11 16:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Cearain wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
You're killing off a wartarget, start running down the timer on your own and actually capture the plex? Here's an example:
You're at Tier 2, you enter a hostile system, warp to a novice with a wt in it who's deplexing. You enter the site, it's almost done, you kill the wt and then run the timer for 19 minutes. You will get 19*10%*10kLP. This is 19k. For a novice. Because, well, you know, you fought for it and spent 19 minutes in it. .


Under your system do you get the extra lp for the kill or just because of the extra time?

I understand that if they warp off it will reset under your system so you probably won't find a timer at 19 with no one in it. But what if they warp off after you enter, reset? What if they fight and manage to warp off in structure? What if you destroy their ship and they warp the pod out? What if they cloak? I'm just curious how it will work under these scenarios.


IMO having the timer completely reset might be a bit harsh.

The whole timer rollback or reset will lead to more pvp, but I'm not sure how the other changes to the mechanics will promote pvp.





Not sure if you understood my idea completely, so i'll just give you two answers.

First, assuming you did not:

I added a second 'timer' with my idea, that has only remotely something to do with the timer on the site itself. The latter one stays untouched. Warping out will not cause a rollback or whatever. However, the new timer is a personal one that will only affect you. It will count how long you have actively been running the site's timer, will stop if you cloak or burn out of range and will continue to count if you are pushing the site's timer again - either by decloaking or getting back into range. This personal timer will reset the moment your warp commences (not when you hit warp, but when you enter it, 75% maxspeed and full alignment). So as an example: You are running a freshly opened medium in your Atron. At 2 minutes left a cruiser shows up on shortrange, on 1 minute left it's inside and a wartarget. The site's timer will now stop. If you now warp out, your personal timer resets, the site's timer is at 1 minutes left for your faction, or at 39 minutes left for the opposing faction. If you decide to stay and zoom around and out of range of the site, your timer (that is stopped by the presence of the wartarget already) will not reset. If the Cruiser now thinks you are not worth his time and he warps out after, let's say, 5 minutes, the timer will now show as 6 minutes left for your faction. If you now burn back into range and finish these last 6 minutes, you will have a total personal timer of 19 + 6 minutes, making you eligible for 25 payout units worth of LP.

If you would have warped out, the cruiser would have done the same, and you would have reentered and would have finished the site's timer, your personal timer would have been reset, and the remaining time you capture the plex is 1 or 2 minutes rounded, so 1 or 2 payout units.

Conclusion: If you want the payout of a site, you are encouraged to bring a proper ship and stay in there and fight for it.



Now, the version assuming you understood my idea:

If you warp out, your personal timer will reset. If you cloak, it will pause. If you burn out of range, it will pause. Extra LP-Payout upon completion of the site for kills during the capturing process is a very, very bad idea as it would become exploitable by warping in cheap ass frigates from your Gallente alt into the cruiser of your Caldari alt. Shipkills already have a LP-Payout based on the worth of the ship and some other data, so no need to give other bonuses.

If you fight in a plex and warp it out in structure, be it because you barely killed the opponent and want to rep at station or because your opponent lost point on you so you could get away, your personal timer is reset.

If you destroy their ship and they warp their pod out, their personal timer will reset.

Why? Because they were not able to capture the site. They were unworthy. If they come back to finish their job, gooood! But their personal timer will still be reset.

Is this harsh? Of course it is!

Will this make capturing of sites impossible the moment someone warps in on you? No. You can stay and fight. And more important, you can do all this with your buddies! Up to 3 players can run a Site simultaneously from start to finish and all of them will get full LP. If you bring more people, the LP per player will decrease, but not as rapidly as it is current. With 6 players in, everyone will get half the usual LP. 3 to 6 people already is a nice little gang for plexing, and even in frigates it's a force that can hold the field in a medium efficiently.

What if me and my 2 buddies run a site and just as it's about to finish a militia member uncloaks and leeches the LP?
Since he was cloaked the whole time his personal timer was not running. He will get probably 1 minute worth of LP and reduce the LP-payout of you and your buddies only slightly. More in the novices because a 'Payout unit' is worth more from the total pie, less in smalls for the same reason, and even less mediums and larges.

What if i warp into a medium site that a wartraget is running, it's 2 minutes left for him, and he cloaks up?
Stay in there, he can't hurt you and has to watch you running back his timer and getting paid for every single minute of it.

Is this exploitable?
No, not really. You will only get paid for the minutes you actiuvely capture the site. If you cloak and someone rolls back the timer, you will be waiting his timer, too, and you will not get paid for his time spent in there.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#112 - 2013-07-11 21:36:45 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

If you warp out, your personal timer will reset. If you cloak, it will pause. If you burn out of range, it will pause. ...

If you fight in a plex and warp it out in structure, be it because you barely killed the opponent and want to rep at station or because your opponent lost point on you so you could get away, your personal timer is reset.




I'm not sure how prefering people cloak up or mwd 200k away and wait for enemies or pirates to leave is any better than warping out.

I think the simple timer count back proposals works better to get people to fight.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#113 - 2013-07-12 14:16:24 UTC
How is fw going?

I see amarr has about split systems with minmatar again after dropping to tier 1. Did Fweddit return or is this just tier 3 caldari farmers? (unfortunately the api doesn't track diagonal plexing)

Are we ready to draw any conclusions about these fw tiers being based on pvp versus rabbit plexing or do we need to wait for more data?

From my perspective as a neutral I would say fw guys run about 80-90% of the time. Where as non-fw players in plexes stay to fight about 80-90% of the time.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#114 - 2013-07-12 16:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Cearain wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

If you warp out, your personal timer will reset. If you cloak, it will pause. If you burn out of range, it will pause. ...

If you fight in a plex and warp it out in structure, be it because you barely killed the opponent and want to rep at station or because your opponent lost point on you so you could get away, your personal timer is reset.




I'm not sure how prefering people cloak up or mwd 200k away and wait for enemies or pirates to leave is any better than warping out.

I think the simple timer count back proposals works better to get people to fight.




Basically, because it would be a stupid idea to stay for the plex. There's more LP to be made if they abandon that site.
I intended that cloak only pauses the timer because there are ships that might actually want to pvp while utilizing a cloak. Then again, those are so few that they are probably neglectable and might suffer from a timer reset for the sake of everyone else.

Still, this is a boon to AFK-Farmers. They will have to pay more attention, and one mistake would screw their efforts of the last couple of minutes - instead of allowing them to come back later for full payout.

A simple Timer-Rollback would (imo) not change that much. If they cloak, the timer rolls back, pretty much same like a wartarget enters and they cloak with the changes proposed by me. However, there's also the smart guys. They are stabbed and cloaky, look for plexes where FRIENDLY MILITIA is plexing. They note the timer, warp out, come back to leech the LP on completion. A simple Timer-Rollback will not void this tactic.

So overall, after some thoughts: Yes to 'personal timer'-reset when activating a cloak.

What do you think of the ability to bring friends with you and not lose LP? Will this catalyze pvp, or not, especially in combination with losing payout when you warp off? What do you think about removing the tiers for more dynamic warzone control?



Cearain wrote:
How is fw going?

I see amarr has about split systems with minmatar again after dropping to tier 1. Did Fweddit return or is this just tier 3 caldari farmers? (unfortunately the api doesn't track diagonal plexing)

Are we ready to draw any conclusions about these fw tiers being based on pvp versus rabbit plexing or do we need to wait for more data?

From my perspective as a neutral I would say fw guys run about 80-90% of the time. Where as non-fw players in plexes stay to fight about 80-90% of the time.



Loads of Caldari people down in the warzone now, for example my corp. But our intent is to stay there, from my personal expierience it's the better warzone if you're looking for pewpew.

FW tiers mostly based on PvE, only for the Ihub bash you need a fleet.

Lots of FW players warp out, this is true. It's a little bit of nullsec-delite where you will only fight if your numbers are superior. Then again, had a bunch of good fights last night with some minnies. We were superior in numbers, they had links. So i'd say, pretty even odds.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#115 - 2013-07-12 16:53:40 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

If you warp out, your personal timer will reset. If you cloak, it will pause. If you burn out of range, it will pause. ...

If you fight in a plex and warp it out in structure, be it because you barely killed the opponent and want to rep at station or because your opponent lost point on you so you could get away, your personal timer is reset.




I'm not sure how prefering people cloak up or mwd 200k away and wait for enemies or pirates to leave is any better than warping out.

I think the simple timer count back proposals works better to get people to fight.




Basically, because it would be a stupid idea to stay for the plex. There's more LP to be made if they abandon that site.
I intended that cloak only pauses the timer because there are ships that might actually want to pvp while utilizing a cloak. Then again, those are so few that they are probably neglectable and might suffer from a timer reset for the sake of everyone else.

Still, this is a boon to AFK-Farmers. They will have to pay more attention, and one mistake would screw their efforts of the last couple of minutes - instead of allowing them to come back later for full payout.

A simple Timer-Rollback would (imo) not change that much. If they cloak, the timer rolls back, pretty much same like a wartarget enters and they cloak with the changes proposed by me. However, there's also the smart guys. They are stabbed and cloaky, look for plexes where FRIENDLY MILITIA is plexing. They note the timer, warp out, come back to leech the LP on completion. A simple Timer-Rollback will not void this tactic.

So overall, after some thoughts: Yes to 'personal timer'-reset when activating a cloak.

What do you think of the ability to bring friends with you and not lose LP? Will this catalyze pvp, or not, especially in combination with losing payout when you warp off? What do you think about removing the tiers for more dynamic warzone control?


I think your personal timer idea works well for lp thieves but ccp has a somewhat easier way to deal with that. They should award lp like they used to (and maybe still do) award standings. The player that was running the timer the longest continuous time up until capture gets the lp. His lp is divided with any of his fleetmates that are also within range of the button. This would for the most part end lp thieving. I am not sure why ccp didn't use the same mechanic when it came to lp.

I have to say though lp thieving (especially when every plex was worth like 250mill) lead to some of the most hilarious moments in eve I ever had.

As far as the lp payouts being multiple times the pay if you use more people, I don't like it. I think if a pilot is good enough at pvp that he can fight 3 people alone he should get paid more than if he needs 2 others.

If I want my fence painted and one guy says he can do it for $100, its not like I will pay 3 guys $300 just because they used more people. I really don't like when ccp does this artificial boost for group play like they did in incursions. If you are good enough to get the same job done with less man hours then you should be rewarded. Artificial penalties for being efficient are almost always a sign that the game has deeper problems.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#116 - 2013-07-12 17:04:09 UTC
I see your point. The 'easy' payout scheme looks like it could work extraordinary well. However, capturing plexes the opposing militia has been running seems to stay being farily unattractive. Unless ofcourse there's some really fast timer rollback implemented so you just bounce back and voila, almost normal timer. Maybe even keep the rollback until 'neutral' state is achieved when someone is in there?
Elvis Fett
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2013-07-12 17:05:07 UTC
IMO the biggest change that FW needs is just one little change, don't allow stabs or cloaks into plexes. If you have a stab or a cloak on your ship you can't activate the gate.

Personally I rather see a harsher punishment for abandoning your plex than just timer rollbacks as well. Perhaps if you start a timer on a plex then an enemy milita ends up closing that plex you lose that 1/6th of the LP you would of gained. That would give real incentive to get some friends and come back and take that plex you were just chased out of, with a timer rollback it's more likely the one chased out will just find a different plex in a different system.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#118 - 2013-07-12 17:50:05 UTC
Elvis Fett wrote:
IMO the biggest change that FW needs is just one little change, don't allow stabs or cloaks into plexes. If you have a stab or a cloak on your ship you can't activate the gate.

Personally I rather see a harsher punishment for abandoning your plex than just timer rollbacks as well. Perhaps if you start a timer on a plex then an enemy milita ends up closing that plex you lose that 1/6th of the LP you would of gained. That would give real incentive to get some friends and come back and take that plex you were just chased out of, with a timer rollback it's more likely the one chased out will just find a different plex in a different system.



Its not like its easy to catch plex rabbits even when they have no stabs or cloaks.

I agree that a timer rollback probably won't be sufficient. But it is necessary.

The way to prevent fw tiers being decided by rabbits will involve a form of timer rollback as well as some tools to help pvpers quickly find where plexes are being taken, so they can fight for them.

Unfortunately fw has, unsurprisingly, attracted the plex rabbits that flourish under the current mechanics. Therefore the new faction war player base is not as motivated to change fw sov into more of a pvp mechanic. Hence even the timer rollback proposal only has 12 upvotes in assembly hall.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#119 - 2013-07-12 21:35:11 UTC
Give it up. Smile

FW has had all the major changes it's going to get for a while. CCP has to move onto other areas that are way more broken than FW, dullsec for example.

If you seriously don't like how FW works nowadays, go fly somewhere else.....Bear

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.