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A proposal for FW
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Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-05-21 15:48:32 UTC
if fw is fine and 0.0 needs some love....

Time to make 0.0 available to one day old alt stabbed farmers earning more than 0.0 anoms runners?

no?

why?! 0.0 is more risky and more profit right.

i think theres a point in there some where if not, then rant over.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2013-05-21 16:04:16 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I guess my first question would be why didn't/doesn't minmatar push for sahtogas? I really don't know the answer.

That answer (those reasons) may provide some clues as to where we need to look to get larger scale fights.


The answer is simple: Those non-farming Minmatar pilots are busy defending their home systems from Amarr farmers. Why should I go and push sahtogas when I just can stay at home and kill the bloody farmers comming to me. Even worser, if we leave our home for like 6 hours then it gets heavily contested so that it really gets in danger of being flipped. For those who are not looking at the LP or ISK per hour ratio there is really no incentive to go and take an enemy system (at least as long you have a steady stream of farmers to kill at your own ground).


We have almost no farmers atm. Your systems are conquered by pvpers.
Even if we would have farmers they would be in cal/gal space farming the gals to hell. But there are also almost none.



https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx

This website gives top vp gainers for a day and for the week for vp gained in your own war zone. AFAIK It does not give vp for cross plexing as that is not recorded.

If you want to see how the top vp gainers are gaining so much vp look at their killboards for the days they gain that vp.

Here are the top 20 for yesterday 5/20/2013.


Dalis Car victoryPoints="700"
FarmingEvolved victoryPoints="580"
Stirlsha victoryPoints="540
Validous Tiberius victoryPoints="500
Walter Islands victoryPoints="500
Cytheera victory points"500"

Heira Andedare victoryPoints="480
Nathan Seldon victoryPoints="460
Takashi Kuritatomo victoryPoints="460
Leona Myo" victoryPoints="460
DeathStalker Owen victoryPoints="440
JunglyJingo victoryPoints="420
gocaine badger victoryPoints="420

Momoka Shihari victoryPoints="400
atten sion victoryPoints="400"
Aurentinos victoryPoints="400
maxmus09 victoryPoints="400
Patient numero deux" victoryPoints="380
Gaven Lok'ri victoryPoints="380
Thanatos Marathon victoryPoints="380
duch crystal cvicotry points="380"/>

I haven't checked to see how many amarr are on there or what their killboards look like. But I will say that from my experience amarr seem the least likely to warp off of all the factions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2013-05-21 16:19:38 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I guess my first question would be why didn't/doesn't minmatar push for sahtogas? I really don't know the answer.

That answer (those reasons) may provide some clues as to where we need to look to get larger scale fights.


The answer is simple: Those non-farming Minmatar pilots are busy defending their home systems from Amarr farmers. Why should I go and push sahtogas when I just can stay at home and kill the bloody farmers comming to me. Even worser, if we leave our home for like 6 hours then it gets heavily contested so that it really gets in danger of being flipped. For those who are not looking at the LP or ISK per hour ratio there is really no incentive to go and take an enemy system (at least as long you have a steady stream of farmers to kill at your own ground).


I imagine different characters will have different reasons. But thanks for your view.

So one reason was: the concern of farmers plexing home systems if you leave it unattended and possibly leaving it in danger of being flipped.

If there were no lockouts do you think you would have went and pushed for sahtogas?

If fewer pvpers could be left behind and still effectively drive out farmers do you think you would have pushed for sahtogas?

Is there something else that could change that would have lead you to care enough about taking sahtogas such that you would have joined in a large battle there?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#44 - 2013-05-21 22:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Colt Blackhawk wrote:


We have almost no farmers atm. Your systems are conquered by pvpers.
Even if we would have farmers they would be in cal/gal space farming the gals to hell. But there are also almost none.


SOOOO amarrs numbers swelling are just pvpers getting in on some action? yeah right lol im in gal space and see amarr farmers all the time. The reason why one faction doesnt see the rise in farmers there militia has during a pendulum swing is because ur not chasing your own kind and dont realise them as much but they are there in backwaters knawing away

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#45 - 2013-05-22 09:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Meditril wrote:

The answer is simple: Those non-farming Minmatar pilots are busy defending their home systems from Amarr farmers. Why should I go and push sahtogas when I just can stay at home and kill the bloody farmers comming to me. Even worser, if we leave our home for like 6 hours then it gets heavily contested so that it really gets in danger of being flipped. For those who are not looking at the LP or ISK per hour ratio there is really no incentive to go and take an enemy system (at least as long you have a steady stream of farmers to kill at your own ground).


We have almost no farmers atm. Your systems are conquered by pvpers.
Even if we would have farmers they would be in cal/gal space farming the gals to hell. But there are also almost none.


I can not agree to this we have a lot of farmers in our systems. But indeed we have also more people willing to fight in the recent days.

{Notice: I have removed killmails since I have read somewhere that posting killmails is prohibited in this part of the forum. Please check my killboard if you want evidence of dead farmers.}
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#46 - 2013-05-22 10:07:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Meditril]I imagine different characters will have different reasons. But thanks for your view.

So one reason was: the concern of farmers plexing home systems if you leave it unattended and possibly leaving it in danger of being flipped.

If there were no lockouts do you think you would have went and pushed for sahtogas?

If fewer pvpers could be left behind and still effectively drive out farmers do you think you would have pushed for sahtogas?

Is there something else that could change that would have lead you to care enough about taking sahtogas such that you would have joined in a large battle there?


First, I really appreciate the lockout mechanics, because it finally gives holding a system a meaning. Furthermore, I remember the endless and annoying docking games with war targets prior the lockout was implemented. Therefore, the lockout is really a must have which I like!

The problem currently is that there is really no reason to push for sahtogas from a PVP perspective if you have enough WT to kill in your own home system. What would I get from taking Sahtogas? Nothing. With regards to Off Grid Boosters there is even a good reason not to go there. If you go into enemy turf you will just find that they are boosted to hell with their local AFK off grid boosters sitting in POSes. (I mean this is a valid tactics with current mechanics, but Off Grid Boosting is simply crap from a more global perspective).
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#47 - 2013-05-25 21:56:25 UTC
For what it is worth (and I apologise if this has been said and I missed it) but stagger the % change to a system to match the plex type:

Novice - 0.1%
Small - 0.2%
Medium - 0.3%
Large - 0.4%

This would make a system need more than a 2 day campaign to flip it. Want to play safe, then accept the penalty that you are not having a big impact.

Also, make people earn the plex, the rats are too damn weak!

Want to take a system faster, fine run the large plexes, but make it need 2+ bc's, not a faction frig.

No, you were not blobbed, you just didn't bring enough people to the fight!
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#48 - 2013-05-27 04:24:48 UTC
Philpip wrote:
For what it is worth (and I apologise if this has been said and I missed it) but stagger the % change to a system to match the plex type:

Novice - 0.1%
Small - 0.2%
Medium - 0.3%
Large - 0.4%

This would make a system need more than a 2 day campaign to flip it. Want to play safe, then accept the penalty that you are not having a big impact.

Also, make people earn the plex, the rats are too damn weak!

Want to take a system faster, fine run the large plexes, but make it need 2+ bc's, not a faction frig.

no.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#49 - 2013-05-31 06:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Philpip
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Philpip wrote:
For what it is worth (and I apologise if this has been said and I missed it) but stagger the % change to a system to match the plex type:

Novice - 0.1%
Small - 0.2%
Medium - 0.3%
Large - 0.4%

This would make a system need more than a 2 day campaign to flip it. Want to play safe, then accept the penalty that you are not having a big impact.

Also, make people earn the plex, the rats are too damn weak!

Want to take a system faster, fine run the large plexes, but make it need 2+ bc's, not a faction frig.

no.


Congratulations on your well rounded, thought out objection.

In every other aspect of Eve, the reward is directly linked to the risk, with the exception of FW plexes, where the reward for the 'Level 1' is the same as the reward for the 'Level 4'. How is that not broken?

No, you were not blobbed, you just didn't bring enough people to the fight!
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-05-31 11:15:13 UTC
Personally, I think FW is working pretty well right now. The siege of Arzad proved that to me. Because a fight, battle or campaign didn't go our way, doesn't mean the system is broken. Sure this month has been Frigate/Dessie centric, but we've all seen BS and cap fights in FW, we'll see them again.

The biggest problem in FW is shared throughout Eve. Balance!

One side will always dominate the other. Be it in a particular TZ, in veteran/skilled pilots or just generally overall. It's sad that so many people in Eve think the end game is simply to join the biggest, most richest alliance. But show me the Dev post where it says that Eve is meant to be fair or that people can't be f*ggots.

In FW we have the unique situation of having plenty of options when we can't face the enemy toe to toe, other than just switching sides. Adapt, overcome, fight dirty. The last thing I'd like to see is a system which would encourage the Minmatar leadership to talk to the Amarr leadership... nudge, nudge, wink, wink... you leave Sahtogas alone and we won't touch OURZ...Huola. Anything that encourages stagnation is bad for FW.

The big blue doughnut is that way ->

As for farmers? We all have to farm at some point, just let them get on with it, take the odd gank where you can.
Okogawa Shaishi
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-05-31 12:31:50 UTC
I'm farily new to Factional Warfare, so take my opinion about it as "newbie FW one".

Someone here said, we should get LP for killing pirates or neutrals. I'd agree with pirates and suspects. I mean, Factional Warfare is supposed to be military operations in low sec. EvE is to some people kinda a simulator of space ships rather than a simple game (maybe for most of them). But I don't see FW low sec much as military place. Everyone can come and go as they please. Have you ever seen a military base so easy to enter?

I'm not saying we need heavily fortified systems. But when we take a system, why not let us upgrade the gate / ihub defense as already people here suggested. Set up "entering status", those NPC turrets / ships will shoot only pirates, only neutrals, only FW enemies, or combined. Or let it setup status to other corporations. You are red, its gonna shoot you, you are blue, it will defend you in case someone is shooting you. What I'm saying here, just let us feel its really a military thing.


Or how about to let people spend LP different ways? Something like a support NPC fleet which cynoes in (how big depends on your LP spendings). Lets say you spend your LP on ihub upgrades. What for? I mean, now its for better tier. but everyone gets that advantage even tho they didnt spend anything. So why not let those who do spend LP to get ihubs on higher level let theirs corporaton have some kind of reward for it.

Othwerise, nice read in this topic. Good to know people care about FW more than just LPs.

P.S. Don't kill me and remember, I'm FW newbie. Cool BtwI really liked that idea about more NPC ships in plexes, depending on who goes in.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#52 - 2013-05-31 14:53:04 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
...
The biggest problem in FW is shared throughout Eve. Balance!

One side will always dominate the other. Be it in a particular TZ, in veteran/skilled pilots or just generally overall. It's sad that so many people in Eve think the end game is simply to join the biggest, most richest alliance. But show me the Dev post where it says that Eve is meant to be fair or that people can't be f*ggots.

In FW we have the unique situation of having plenty of options when we can't face the enemy toe to toe, other than just switching sides. Adapt, overcome, fight dirty....



Or just give up when you see an enemy that you can't fight toe to toe and spend a week moving your stuff instead of pvping.

It would be nice if when a large force came into one system you could then focus on different systems and force them to spread out. But with the current tier system and lock outs no one cares about the vast majority of systems so there is no effective way to force the blob to spread out. If one side has the superior numbers to take home systems there is nothing the enemy can do except move out of fw space.

Major Trant wrote:
The last thing I'd like to see is a system which would encourage the Minmatar leadership to talk to the Amarr leadership... nudge, nudge, wink, wink... you leave Sahtogas alone and we won't touch OURZ...Huola. Anything that encourages stagnation is bad for FW.

The big blue doughnut is that way ->....


Is that what we see in Caldari Gallente space? Could/can Gallente kick the Caldari out of any home system they wanted? The impression I get (it could be wrong) is that they could. But they want the pvp so they allow caldari to stay in some systems. Caldari can't take Nenn but I have not heard anyone say gallente are incapable of taking any particular caldari system. So it seems they just sort of tacitally agree to let caldari stay there.

Minmatar had dominance on the plexing front and so amarr pvpers who didn't want to waste time with it moved out of the warzone.

I think a goal should be to make it so people care about all (or at least the majority) of the systems somewhat equivalently so a single blob that can spread timezones pays for clumping everyone into one system.

IMO after the october 2012 changes the tier system basically died. Now very few care at all about any system other than their home systems. Result blob = Iwin just like null sec.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#53 - 2013-05-31 18:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:

It would be nice if when a large force came into one system you could then focus on different systems and force them to spread out. But with the current tier system and lock outs no one cares about the vast majority of systems so there is no effective way to force the blob to spread out. If one side has the superior numbers to take home systems there is nothing the enemy can do except move out of fw space.
You CAN focus on different systems and force them (technically wrong: you can't really force anybody in Eve to do anything) to spread out. This was part of the plan for the Amarr during the Sahtoghas campaign.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#54 - 2013-05-31 18:22:39 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Is that what we see in Caldari Gallente space? Could/can Gallente kick the Caldari out of any home system they wanted? The impression I get (it could be wrong) is that they could. But they want the pvp so they allow caldari to stay in some systems. Caldari can't take Nenn but I have not heard anyone say gallente are incapable of taking any particular caldari system. So it seems they just sort of tacitally agree to let caldari stay there.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. Maybe there's a little more strategery in FW than you think.

Quote:

IMO after the october 2012 changes the tier system basically died. Now very few care at all about any system other than their home systems. Result blob = Iwin just like null sec.


Nobody cared about any other (non-home) system before tier changes. All non-home systems were made vulnerable by farmers and were kept that way for weeks until a side decided to flip them all at once to get the LP payout. Then the same thing happened for the other side.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2013-05-31 21:47:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

It would be nice if when a large force came into one system you could then focus on different systems and force them to spread out. But with the current tier system and lock outs no one cares about the vast majority of systems so there is no effective way to force the blob to spread out. If one side has the superior numbers to take home systems there is nothing the enemy can do except move out of fw space.
You CAN focus on different systems and force them (technically wrong: you can't really force anybody in Eve to do anything) to spread out. This was part of the plan for the Amarr during the Sahtoghas campaign.



Thats true. It does work in the extremely rare case of trying to hold on to a single system. Beyond that there are about 5 systems per front that people care about. When one side gets the blob advantage over the other side spread over time zones, they can start flipping those systems. Meanwhile there is little the smaller militia can do.

Consider what Major tant said "...we had 25 regulars." What could these 25 pilots do after the large fleet came? Nothing. Sure they could plex a surrounding system but that would accomplish nothing. You can either outblob in the home systems, or theres not much of significance to do. Null sec.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#56 - 2013-05-31 21:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Is that what we see in Caldari Gallente space? Could/can Gallente kick the Caldari out of any home system they wanted? The impression I get (it could be wrong) is that they could. But they want the pvp so they allow caldari to stay in some systems. Caldari can't take Nenn but I have not heard anyone say gallente are incapable of taking any particular caldari system. So it seems they just sort of tacitally agree to let caldari stay there.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. Maybe there's a little more strategery in FW than you think.



Sure thats possible but what I am hearing is one side does not want to drive the enemy out so there can be more pvp. I am also hearing caldari were recently kicked out of a system because they started plexxing nenn. Sort of a hidden assumption that if you don't mess with our sov we won't mess with yours. Not everyone agreed with that view. But after the medal was collected there seemed no more interest in really kicking the caldari out.
X Gallentius wrote:

Quote:

IMO after the october 2012 changes the tier system basically died. Now very few care at all about any system other than their home systems. Result blob = Iwin just like null sec.


Nobody cared about any other (non-home) system before tier changes. All non-home systems were made vulnerable by farmers and were kept that way for weeks until a side decided to flip them all at once to get the LP payout. Then the same thing happened for the other side.




There were allot of farmers/rabbits no doubt. How to deal with farmers/rabbits is a different issue.

But people also had to care about 80% of the systems if they wanted a very profitable cashout. So the system itself did make militias care about the vast majority of systems. Perhaps just once every 3 months for a push but at least it happened occassionally. Now no one ever cares about anything but home systems that are won by getting the biggest blob.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#57 - 2013-05-31 22:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
But people also had to care about 80% of the systems if they wanted a very profitable cashout. So the system itself did make militias care about the vast majority of systems. Perhaps just once every 3 months for a push but at least it happened occassionally. Now no one ever cares about anything but home systems that are won by getting the biggest blob.
People currently have to care about 80% of the systems if they want a very profitable farming activity. What's the difference?

Your argument is that people "cared" about 80% of the systems for one day every three months. That's only about 1% of the way towards your FW Utopia where everybody cares about every system all day long. Surely you can do better.

You never participated in the mass-flipping of 70+ systems. If you did, then you wouldn't keep bringing it up as "the good old days".
Random Mintard CEO
The 24th Tribal Liberation Farce
#58 - 2013-05-31 22:24:29 UTC
Your ideas are terrible. Also your so called "alliance" quit FW already, why are you still pretending to be in it?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#59 - 2013-05-31 22:49:49 UTC
Posting in another thread where Cretin is corrected on his ill conceived intuition based often contradictory understanding of fw.

I for one never get bored of hearing his ignorant insight into times and events that many others here actually participated in rather than just read a blog once.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#60 - 2013-06-01 01:26:49 UTC
One of the things that has frustrated me as of late was the abandonment of the temporary cyno jammer. As it had been proposed the thing would take some time to online and then only be active for an hour. It's uses would have been pretty straightforward:

1) Reinforce a moon POS in a FW zone.
2) Set up cyno jammer to run for when it comes out.
3) Profit??

A null sec group would have to drop a supercap group early or jump a subcap group next door and move into the system. At fanfest CCP indicated they wanted to make low sec a dark alley that null sec powerhouses would not want to go into because they couldn't bring their full force to bear and it wouldn't be worth their time. The temporary cyno jammer clearly fit the bill. With the new moon seeding it would have made low sec sov something more then a joke.

So why was it abandoned? There are nullsec groups that have enough isk to replace their supercap fleet three times over. Was this item really such a threat to them that they needed to be coddled?

I've seen comments in this thread and others that low sec is for PvP beginners and those of us with 100m + SP should just go to Null. I strongly disagree with this view and hope it is not a vision that CCP shares. I like being able to log on and find a fight in five minutes. I like being able to dock up in a few jumps and take care of RL stuff. I play 30+ hours a week but my two month old really doesn't care if I'm on a four hour operation in Null, you know? Lol. Been there and done that. The flexibility is huge as is the option to fly what I want and train what I want. Null in my experience didn't offer that.

So what should CCP's vision of low sec be? I hope they have one. Right now it doesn't have much in the way of teeth.