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External monitor with MacBook Pro... no full screen?
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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#41 - 2013-05-11 13:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Roime wrote:

Perhaps you can point us to a hardware manufacturer that prefers people reselling old gear instead of buying new ones? Or a big company that aren't assholes?


Dell have a refurb sub business where they buy and resell old dells. Anything that comes back to them that can't be fixed in-house and resold is sent to companies to either be fixed elsewhere or to have the parts stripped and resold. So dells are fine with re-use. Whether they are assholes or not, that is a responsible business practice. Many many other large companies operate similarly.

Apple are different. If you put confidential information on a Mac it is often so costly to get that information off, that i's not worth doing to resell them. For any responsible business with a duty of confidentiality Macs are not worth using, especially if you are environmentally responsible for the Macs after they have served their purpose. Trust me on this one, I work for the one of the biggest computer recycling companies in the world that deal with ensuring confidential data is gone (or as close to as physically possible) for resale.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2013-05-11 13:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Roime wrote:
Their workstation line is an overprized joke, but the notebooks are really great machines. Similar models from other manufacturers cost almost as much.
I wouldn't even go that far. The Pro is priced roughly the same as the equivalent workstations from HP and Dell. The problem is that people look at them and think “ATX desktop” and then compare with what you put together yourself or through some custom-PC build tool on a hardware seller's website.

The point of comparison for a Pro isn't this — it's this. The price is pretty much what you'd expect in that segment.

Arduemont wrote:
Apple are different. If you put confidential information on a Mac it is often so costly to get that information off, that i's not worth doing to resell them.
Really? Where do Macs store data that other PCs don't, and why do you have to physically get to it to nuke it?
Abon
Pandorum Research Incorporated
#43 - 2013-05-11 14:06:27 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
London wrote:
Wow, you are a closed-minded and predictable lot. :P

I use both platforms for different purposes. I agree that a PC is obviously superior for gaming value, but given that the lad happens to have a Macbook Pro (a solid machine), you could at least help him out instead of going through the usual "my computer is better than your computer" dribble.

Aside from gaming on a PC, I prefer a Mac for creative design work, and I can guarantee most agencies in similar fields house Macs given their small footprint and beautiful design.

Peace out.


Not really.

I have worked at most Companies in the UK who specialise in military hardware (Astute Class Subs, Tornado, Hawk, Harrier, Nimrod Mk4, Euro fighter, JSF, Titan, Trojan, Challenger 2 etc, and they all used a combination of Unix and HP Workstations,

You would not find 1 fruity device at any of these companies at any of there sites.



You don`t say..did you even read the post you quoted? Creative agencies mostly use macs, i know a ton of advertisement agencies and filmproduction companies and you will not find a single PC there..some of them having yearly budgets going into 100 million euros and more. The companies you mentioned mainly use PCs due to the fact that the software they run is highly customised. Which is the case for most engineering and technical stuff.

After 15 years of IT Consulting i can say one thing, PCs are for gamers and people who at least have a slight understanding of computers and their innards or people who need flexibility in development. Macs are for "users" as i call them who just want to get their stuff done without thinking about how it is done. Like creative people, managers, art students or girlfriends. Macs simply work and are hard to bring down to their knees when it comes to basic business and creative stuff. Push button receive bacon.

And all you nerds should be really happy that your hipster friends have Macs or otherwise you would have to fix their ****** up PCs every week since they are to dumb to handle a computer. Apple does a very good job in protecting their devices from their own users which leads to much less problems over time. Also their machines have a very high manufacturing quality.

I personally run both and they both do very well in their areas. The upgrade argument is also pretty nil as my PC is just as outdated after 4 years as my mac is and no matter if the CPU is soldered in or not i also cannot simply stuff a new CPU into my PC as the MOBO socket will be most likely outdated, the RAMS incompatible or too slow, the power supply too weak etc etc. so a new PC it is anyways! A new PC is cheaper of course in comparison to a new Mac no question there.

My personal advise: Get a nice custom rig for gaming and all the PC fun stuff, get a Macbook for business/work/travel and other routine stuff. I get a new PC every 1-2 years depending on hardware development and a new Mac every 2-4 years. Keeps costs low and you have the best of both worlds.
Abon
Pandorum Research Incorporated
#44 - 2013-05-11 14:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Abon
double failpoast
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-05-11 16:00:51 UTC
My friend bought his 12 year old a mac for his birthday. I immediately called the police and reported he was contributing to the snobery and eliteism of a minor. The police while horrified were powerless. So I wrote a letter to the local newspaper. The protesters came out like locusts. The local chapter of the "PC owners rule, mac owners drool" outlaw motorcycle club came out to distribute copies of Windows 8. My buddy was so overwhelmed he tossed the Mac into a dumpster and got his son a PC. The day was saved...
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#46 - 2013-05-11 16:07:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Tippia wrote:

The point of comparison for a Pro isn't this — it's this. The price is pretty much what you'd expect in that segment.


Comparing a gaming computer to Workstations which run server architecture hardware probably isn't the best comparison to be honest. That Precision you linked is running Xeon processors and Quadro GPUs. It's not a gaming computer. Both of those component types EACH can dwarf the price of the whole other computer.

Tippia wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Apple are different. If you put confidential information on a Mac it is often so costly to get that information off, that i's not worth doing to resell them.
Really? Where do Macs store data that other PCs don't, and why do you have to physically get to it to nuke it?


Basically any company with confidentiality agreements have to take measurements to secure the data on their computers. That means passwording the bios at the very least. Now, PCs have BIOSse in the traditional sense of the word and believe it or not from a profession perspective it is very easy to remove a BIOS password from a PC, and then boot the PC to a piece of software designed for securely wiping the HDD**. Mac computers don't run traditional BIOSes, and as such you can't fiddle with any of the hardware's settings. If a Mac's "bios" (for lack of a better word) is passworded then the only way to wipe that drive is to remove it and wipe it in another set up. Remember what I said earlier about removing Mac components? Well, it takes more man-hours and very often results in breaking the computer you took the HDD out of, at which point you might not have bothered.

It gets a little more complicated depending on how you try to circumvent the BIOS password, but I won't go into it. That's really the long and short of it.

** You may see this as a bad thing, except you can use the BIOS to encrypt the HDD. Something very difficult on a Mac. So being able to circumvent the BIOS on a PC doesn't mean you can get access to the HDD's data. As a side note, if your clearing a computer of data you need to wipe the data off the BIOS as well, something else that is nearly impossible on a Mac.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Maggie Evenstar
Unoriginal Corporation
#47 - 2013-05-11 16:18:59 UTC
Arduemont wrote:


When someone asks us to wipe a Mac and ensure there is no data on it before it can be resold, it means opening the thing up because you can't ensure everything is clear unless you do (you pretty much can with most PCs) and Macs are horrible to open up because Apple don't want you looking at how crappy everything inside is. Everything is soldered in, or fixed to break if taken out, and because they're very very difficult to resell without leaving information on them they leave a massive carbon footprint (they don't want people buying second hand Macs, they want you to buy new ones from them).


What I love about Macs is I can do EVERYTHING on them without having to be a computer nerd. In the case above, you are making it waaaaaay to difficult. If you want to wipe a Mac to get rid of any data on it...after doing format and reinstall of the OS (which you do now from a built in chip in the newer Macs), you just go to Disk Utilities and select the hard drive and use the "erase free space" option to wipe any data still on the drive.

The process to setup a Mac for sale as it was when you first bought it and wipe your old data is sooooooo simple even I can do it...and that's saying something. Then...so setup my new Mac...I just plug in my Time Machine drive and tell the new Mac to setup ALL my apps and files on the new system using Time Machine and voila!

Don't even get me started about how hideous Windows 8 is in just about every way imaginable... Shocked
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#48 - 2013-05-11 16:30:21 UTC
Maggie Evenstar wrote:
What I love about Macs is I can do EVERYTHING on them without having to be a computer nerd. In the case above, you are making it waaaaaay to difficult. If you want to wipe a Mac to get rid of any data on it...after doing format and reinstall of the OS (which you do now from a built in chip in the newer Macs), you just go to Disk Utilities and select the hard drive and use the "erase free space" option to wipe any data still on the drive.


You can't actually wipe information off an HDD. It's actually impossible. When you "erase" or "format" a computer you simply write new null data over the top of the old data. Wiping it like that does not meet the criteria for certification by the BSI to international standard ISO27001 for Information Security Management, and so can't be used by companies with any obligations of confidentiality.

If you sold that Mac to me I could get all of your data back in less than a day. I hope you didn't have any personal information on that thing. Pro tip, if your going to sell a computer... destroy the HDD. That obviously doesn't work for you Mac users, because that means taking it out... See my earlier points.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2013-05-11 17:06:20 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Comparing a gaming computer to Workstations which run server architecture hardware probably isn't the best comparison to be honest. That Precision you linked is running Xeon processors and Quadro GPUs. It's not a gaming computer. Both of those component types EACH can dwarf the price of the whole other computer.
That's my point. People like to point to the Pro as some kind of proof that Macs are overpriced, when they fit a completely different segment than the one that they're being compared to, and in that segment, their pricing is pretty much standard.

Quote:
Mac computers don't run traditional BIOSes, and as such you can't fiddle with any of the hardware's settings. If a Mac's "bios" (for lack of a better word) is passworded then the only way to wipe that drive is to remove it and wipe it in another set up.
It's entirely possible to fiddle with EFI… it's just not ye olde 1980s 80×25×4 text mode interface any more. Blink
Anyway, my point is that you made it sound like Macs use magic. They don't. They store their data in the same place as everyone else, and you get rid of that data the same way you do on every other PC. Your comment has nothing to do with Macs, but rather address hardware integration and design, specifically unibody designs (which become more common in all laptops). The hard drives on the desktop Macs are still user serviceable with the right tools… but yes, sure — suction cups might not be a standard component of every home tinkerer's toolbox. Lol

Quote:
You can't actually wipe information off an HDD. It's actually impossible. When you "erase" or "format" a computer you simply write new null data over the top of the old data. Wiping it like that does not meet the criteria for certification by the BSI to international standard ISO27001 for Information Security Management, and so can't be used by companies with any obligations of confidentiality.
And again, this has less to do with Macs and more to do with your level of paranoia. After all, the same holds true for Windows machines. At least OSX comes with a built-in DoD 5220.22-M-compliant wipe tool, which I don't think Windows does. Sure, no software wipe ever classifies for top-secret sanitization, but it's good enough for most cases.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#50 - 2013-05-11 17:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Tippia wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Comparing a gaming computer to Workstations which run server architecture hardware probably isn't the best comparison to be honest. That Precision you linked is running Xeon processors and Quadro GPUs. It's not a gaming computer. Both of those component types EACH can dwarf the price of the whole other computer.
That's my point. People like to point to the Pro as some kind of proof that Macs are overpriced, when they fit a completely different segment than the one that they're being compared to, and in that segment, their pricing is pretty much standard.

Quote:
Mac computers don't run traditional BIOSes, and as such you can't fiddle with any of the hardware's settings. If a Mac's "bios" (for lack of a better word) is passworded then the only way to wipe that drive is to remove it and wipe it in another set up.
It's entirely possible to fiddle with EFI… it's just not ye olde 1980s 80×25×4 text mode interface any more. Blink
Anyway, my point is that you made it sound like Macs use magic. They don't. They store their data in the same place as everyone else, and you get rid of that data the same way you do on every other PC. Your comment has nothing to do with Macs, but rather address hardware integration and design, specifically unibody designs (which become more common in all laptops). The hard drives on the desktop Macs are still user serviceable with the right tools… but yes, sure — suction cups might not be a standard component of every home tinkerer's toolbox. Lol

Quote:
You can't actually wipe information off an HDD. It's actually impossible. When you "erase" or "format" a computer you simply write new null data over the top of the old data. Wiping it like that does not meet the criteria for certification by the BSI to international standard ISO27001 for Information Security Management, and so can't be used by companies with any obligations of confidentiality.
And again, this has less to do with Macs and more to do with your level of paranoia. After all, the same holds true for Windows machines. At least OSX comes with a built-in DoD 5220.22-M-compliant wipe tool, which I don't think Windows does. Sure, no software wipe ever classifies for top-secret sanitization, but it's good enough for most cases.


Although all your points are valid, I'm not sure your really reading my posts. The point I am making is that Macs are not recyclable because of the way Apple does business. It's an irresponsible business method. It costs more in time/man hours/costs to broken parts of the macs from tinkering with them, than the resale value is.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2013-05-11 17:59:01 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Although all your points are valid, I'm not sure your really reading my posts. The point I am making is that Macs are not recyclable because of the way Apple does business. It's an irresponsible business method. It costs more in time/man hours/costs to broken parts of the macs from tinkering with them, than the resale value is.
Oh, I get your point. My point is that it is not a “Mac vs. PC” thing — it's a problem with increased design integration, which is where the industry as a whole is heading.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#52 - 2013-05-11 21:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Tippia wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Although all your points are valid, I'm not sure your really reading my posts. The point I am making is that Macs are not recyclable because of the way Apple does business. It's an irresponsible business method. It costs more in time/man hours/costs to broken parts of the macs from tinkering with them, than the resale value is.
Oh, I get your point. My point is that it is not a “Mac vs. PC” thing — it's a problem with increased design integration, which is where the industry as a whole is heading.


I disagree. Many builds are going in completely the opposite direction. Take the HP Workstation Z600 as an example. Top of it's game and EVERYTHING inside is hot-swappable. You swap out any component on the inside without any tools in literally seconds. Dell is doing a very similar thing with their newest precision range. Even consoles have easy access to their HDDs now. As you say, this may be happening in other places, but it is primarily an Apple phenomenon.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2013-05-11 21:22:24 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I disagree. Many builds are going in completely the opposite direction. Take the HP Workstation Z600 as an example. Top of it's game and EVERYTHING inside is hot-swappable. You swap out any component on the inside without any tools in literally seconds. Dell is doing a very similar thing with their newest precision range.
…much like in the Pro. Again, different segment.

Quote:
As you say, this may be happening in other places, but it is primarily an Apple phenomenon.
Nah. It's being copied wholesale by HP and Dell for the models they have that sit in the same segment as the comparable Apple designs.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#54 - 2013-05-11 21:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Tippia wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
I disagree. Many builds are going in completely the opposite direction. Take the HP Workstation Z600 as an example. Top of it's game and EVERYTHING inside is hot-swappable. You swap out any component on the inside without any tools in literally seconds. Dell is doing a very similar thing with their newest precision range.
…much like in the Pro. Again, different segment.

Quote:
As you say, this may be happening in other places, but it is primarily an Apple phenomenon.
Nah. It's being copied wholesale by HP and Dell for the models they have that sit in the same segment as the comparable Apple designs.


You sure? We get literally thousands of Dells come through every week, and I have to check anything new that comes through inside and out. I've not seen anything even moderately like what Macs do to the inside of their machines. Same with HPs really.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2013-05-11 21:37:50 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
You sure? We get literally thousands of Dells come through every week, and I have to check anything new that comes through inside and out. I've not seen anything even moderately like what Macs do to the inside of their machines. Same with HPs really.
Slowly but surely…Twisted
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#56 - 2013-05-11 21:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Tippia wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
You sure? We get literally thousands of Dells come through every week, and I have to check anything new that comes through inside and out. I've not seen anything even moderately like what Macs do to the inside of their machines. Same with HPs really.
Slowly but surely…Twisted


All-In-Ones *Shudder*

I hope no ones is actually buying those things. We don't get many of them come through work. But then most of our stuff comes from businesses who are usually smart enough to avoid them.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Maggie Evenstar
Unoriginal Corporation
#57 - 2013-05-11 22:27:26 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Maggie Evenstar wrote:
What I love about Macs is I can do EVERYTHING on them without having to be a computer nerd. In the case above, you are making it waaaaaay to difficult. If you want to wipe a Mac to get rid of any data on it...after doing format and reinstall of the OS (which you do now from a built in chip in the newer Macs), you just go to Disk Utilities and select the hard drive and use the "erase free space" option to wipe any data still on the drive.


You can't actually wipe information off an HDD. It's actually impossible. When you "erase" or "format" a computer you simply write new null data over the top of the old data. Wiping it like that does not meet the criteria for certification by the BSI to international standard ISO27001 for Information Security Management, and so can't be used by companies with any obligations of confidentiality.

If you sold that Mac to me I could get all of your data back in less than a day. I hope you didn't have any personal information on that thing. Pro tip, if your going to sell a computer... destroy the HDD. That obviously doesn't work for you Mac users, because that means taking it out... See my earlier points.


My word! I know NO ONE IRL who is so paranoid about data on their hard drives that they remove the drive before selling a computer. I suppose if it that is critical to you, than you want a machine that is made to simply do that but grief...if I was that paranoid about what I put on my computer, I wouldn't use one.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#58 - 2013-05-11 22:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Maggie Evenstar wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Maggie Evenstar wrote:
What I love about Macs is I can do EVERYTHING on them without having to be a computer nerd. In the case above, you are making it waaaaaay to difficult. If you want to wipe a Mac to get rid of any data on it...after doing format and reinstall of the OS (which you do now from a built in chip in the newer Macs), you just go to Disk Utilities and select the hard drive and use the "erase free space" option to wipe any data still on the drive.


You can't actually wipe information off an HDD. It's actually impossible. When you "erase" or "format" a computer you simply write new null data over the top of the old data. Wiping it like that does not meet the criteria for certification by the BSI to international standard ISO27001 for Information Security Management, and so can't be used by companies with any obligations of confidentiality.

If you sold that Mac to me I could get all of your data back in less than a day. I hope you didn't have any personal information on that thing. Pro tip, if your going to sell a computer... destroy the HDD. That obviously doesn't work for you Mac users, because that means taking it out... See my earlier points.


My word! I know NO ONE IRL who is so paranoid about data on their hard drives that they remove the drive before selling a computer. I suppose if it that is critical to you, than you want a machine that is made to simply do that but grief...if I was that paranoid about what I put on my computer, I wouldn't use one.


You've obviously not been reading my posts... I work for a company who wipes data from computers belonging to other companies that have legal obligations to keep that information confidential. Information leaks cost some of these companies 10s of millions of dollars. Those computers are then recycled. I was talking about Macs not being recyclable because of this issue in the post your originally quoted. Yes, I personally destroy my HDDs when I move on a computer. But it's not paranoia, it's just being safe. Besides, an ancient HDD is worth less than nothing.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Billy Antollarenti
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2013-05-18 19:47:50 UTC
What's an HDD? It must be some PC thing.

SSDs all the way.

BTW, not a scientific study but when I was buying my MBP I costed it vs a Dell machine of the same (as near as I could) spec.

Dell was £300 more than the Macbook.

2.6GHz i7
16GB RAM
500GB SSD
2880x1800 Display

I also worked in a Cisco R&D centre where you could choose Macbook or Windoze laptop. If you took the PC you got tech support, if you took the Mac you were on your own. Company IT told me they allowed this as the mac almost never needed support anyway, whereas the PCs caused a stream of it.
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