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[Odyssey] Grav Site(Ore site)

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Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-05-30 20:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We increased the reward slightly in both Wormhole and Nullsec mining, and also increased the risk rediculously.

Some people will take the easy route and stop mining, others will find clever ways to take advantage of the situation and use the more valuable ores to get rich.

Working as intended.


there, fixed that for you. how easy do you want to make it to find industrials in EvE?

1. star map beacon showing industrial and military indexes are a giant space beacon saying "defenseless kills over here"

2. now that you are in the indus 5 system, look, beacons showing all the previously hidden belts in the system are now layed out like an imperial dinner with serving staff and all.

3. oh look, hound on grid, oh look cyno on grid, oh look, 20+ bombers, oh look, station interior, that was a quick 5 seconds.

you want these changes to be taken seriuously, and to have a potential for players to even consider leaving highsec mining? then the following changes need to be made.

1. make all systems have anom based belts that only have highsec ores and ices, even in the deepest 0.0 systems

2. lowsec and nullsec higher and high end ores are still probe out only. so if you want the mex, and ABC ores, you still have to go find them.

3. remove system develop indices from the star map and add sovereignty challenge actions ( sbu's in system)

and if you want it to be fair, show on the star map real time system population of neutral and hostile pilots, hell, if they can see us, we should be able to see them.

As for the some will take the easy route and working as intended.
did you not learn anything form the smack down of helmar after his flippant remark about the price of pants?

take care with your choice of words, nothing disappears off the internet.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#42 - 2013-05-30 21:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zane Ziebold
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We increased the reward significantly in both Wormhole and Nullsec mining, and also increased the risk.

Some people will take the easy route and stop mining, others will find clever ways to take advantage of the situation and use the more valuable ores to get rich.

Working as intended.


So how is it better, i get i little more trit out of ABC ore but not enough to really make a differences in my opinion. If your building any thing in WH we need to bring in a ton of trit more than what you can get in a wh.

So can WH have moon mining in WH space since you are more or less just killed mining in WH space.

But the risk vs. reward is not even close to what it was, so the loss in not worth it.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#43 - 2013-05-30 21:36:15 UTC

I'm leveling mining skills on my indy alt as we speak.

.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-05-30 21:59:08 UTC
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!



No, it won't be the "brave" miners taking on additional risk reaping the rewards, it will be the miners deep, deep in sovereign alliance space that have the new risks largely mitigated for them that will reap the rewards. Only the crazy people will mine in lowsec, non-sov null, and especially wormholes where escaping with any mined ore will become more of a matter of sheer luck, instead of a battle of scanning skills that it currently is.


Fine, so the miners who have joined an organization with the military power to secure their space will reap the extra rewards, and in turn said organization(s) will tax them for the privilege of mining.

Again, what's the problem here?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#45 - 2013-05-30 22:03:30 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!



No, it won't be the "brave" miners taking on additional risk reaping the rewards, it will be the miners deep, deep in sovereign alliance space that have the new risks largely mitigated for them that will reap the rewards. Only the crazy people will mine in lowsec, non-sov null, and especially wormholes where escaping with any mined ore will become more of a matter of sheer luck, instead of a battle of scanning skills that it currently is.


Fine, so the miners who have joined an organization with the military power to secure their space will reap the extra rewards, and in turn said organization(s) will tax them for the privilege of mining.

Again, what's the problem here?


Try doing that in WH space usually if your mining you don't have a PVP fleet sitting around to escort you.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#46 - 2013-05-30 22:15:17 UTC
You can still secure a system, keep an eye on new K1s and stay aligned.

I hope you guys realize that if this change reduces AFK mining, it's good for everyone except AFK miners.

.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-05-30 23:57:54 UTC
I have a different take on this one

I mine in null and could care about the change's impact there - since afk mining in null is daft to begin with and you deserve to die if you do it.

What bothers me is that all of the high sec gravs - the ones that used to be hidden - ie: all those low sec ores that ppl actually had to work at to get a hold of are now just sitting there for anyone to see - click the "EASY" button and warp direct to it.

In the past some of these high sec gravs went unmined - and the valuable minerals that were there unused. Now every carebear in high sec can find them with zero effort. Why mine a static belt when you can just fly around to a nice large jaspet field in high sec. Risk zero...reward lots....this is a high sec buff.

Its time to end the high sec gravs CCP or seriously reduce them if you want this to work.

~Regan~
Lirinas
B.C.C.O.F Investments
#48 - 2013-05-31 05:21:58 UTC
There's many different facets of this change, depending on the type of system you're mining in, that makes this an irritating change at best, to outright game-changing and wrecking at worst.

Highsec: This allows for the low-sec ores to be easily gained since there is no longer any skill required to find anything. The only skill is constantly flying around and rushing to mine the better ore before somebody else does. This lowers Risk (more easy-to-find places to mine) and potentially raises Rewards, as less skill is necessary to actually find the sites.

Lowsec/Nullsec: Since no more skill is necessary to find Ore sites, Risk for the miner is significantly increased. Rewards are increased with the improved ABC ores, but only large fleet ops will be able to fully capitalize on this. Solo mining in such space will devolve back to Ninja mining.

Wormhole: This is hit worse than even Lowsec. DScan isn't fullproof (especially in larger systems) so a miner can easily be jumped by a cloaked or distant ship. A large fleet will be necessary to ensure the safety of any mining op in WHS, making the increased ABC Rewards pointless for the single miner.

In one fashion or another, this change removes a significant amount of skill in the game, and actually devalues the overall Exploration profession (Ore sites aren't technically part of exploration anymore, since they won't require the use of scanner probes). I was personally looking forward to more content being moved to scan-only belts and sites, increasing the demand for explorers, not reducing it. With this, and the other changes being made to exploration, I'm seriously considering dropping my exploration alt and hanging-up the profession entirely.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#49 - 2013-05-31 06:41:35 UTC
This is a great change. Risk vs Reward, carebears just want the rewards.

The Tears Must Flow
Dmitri Ronuken
ReStore of Reset
#50 - 2013-05-31 07:12:40 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!



No, it won't be the "brave" miners taking on additional risk reaping the rewards, it will be the miners deep, deep in sovereign alliance space that have the new risks largely mitigated for them that will reap the rewards. Only the crazy people will mine in lowsec, non-sov null, and especially wormholes where escaping with any mined ore will become more of a matter of sheer luck, instead of a battle of scanning skills that it currently is.


Fine, so the miners who have joined an organization with the military power to secure their space will reap the extra rewards, and in turn said organization(s) will tax them for the privilege of mining.

Again, what's the problem here?


It isn't a problem to your style of play, and only your style of play. It is a problem, a big problem, to wormhole inhabitants, small groups, virtually anyone in lowsec, and highsec players that don't want to be forced to join one of the mega-alliances to be able to do anything non-PvP outside of CONCORD influence.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#51 - 2013-05-31 07:31:16 UTC
Why is it a problem for highsec miners?
blink alt
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-05-31 07:51:11 UTC
Zane Ziebold wrote:
That would be ok but what happens when a wh open up in a chain your connected to so you do not get any new sigs just one dead ship and pod.


I always thought the proper way to manage risk in a wormhole was to collapse all your connections and don't open your static? Sure it doesn't help if you have any patient cloakies in system but at least this way all you have to look for is new k162s that pop up on the scanning window.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-05-31 12:09:29 UTC
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!



No, it won't be the "brave" miners taking on additional risk reaping the rewards, it will be the miners deep, deep in sovereign alliance space that have the new risks largely mitigated for them that will reap the rewards. Only the crazy people will mine in lowsec, non-sov null, and especially wormholes where escaping with any mined ore will become more of a matter of sheer luck, instead of a battle of scanning skills that it currently is.


Fine, so the miners who have joined an organization with the military power to secure their space will reap the extra rewards, and in turn said organization(s) will tax them for the privilege of mining.

Again, what's the problem here?


It isn't a problem to your style of play, and only your style of play. It is a problem, a big problem, to wormhole inhabitants, small groups, virtually anyone in lowsec, and highsec players that don't want to be forced to join one of the mega-alliances to be able to do anything non-PvP outside of CONCORD influence.


Y'know, I'm just not sure what you want me to say, so I'm going to say this: Sorry you felt wrongly entitled to safe mining in dangerous space.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#54 - 2013-05-31 12:10:58 UTC
I still want to know why this is a problem for highsec miners.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-05-31 12:13:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I still want to know why this is a problem for highsec miners.

I thing I can think of is those who were brave enough to scan down a grab site in a near by low sec system and mine will now be pinned back into high sec.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#56 - 2013-05-31 14:22:09 UTC
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


When the only mining ops able to take advantage of these insecure ore sites are ones ran by the same cartels that currently control the technetium market, megacyte will quickly come under their control, they will certainly have the resources to buy up any limited supplies outside of there own production. Are you ready for another GOON campaign that will rival the game breaking events and exploits of the initial faction wars changes?


You know, we didn't have any plans along these lines, but now that you mention it....

Oh, wait, no, Technetium had unique factors involved in the cartel that made it possible to cartel it in the first place and, contrary to the belief of many, it's not possible to just arbitrarily cartel any given material.

What unique factors?

Technetium comes from Moons spread around Null and low sec. The cartels control the majority of those moons thru brute force. They then cooperate with regards to the price they sell it for. Any supplies from out side are quickly bought up an re listed for the established price. Thus controlling the market. But you already know this.

With the changes coming in Odyssey Null sec mining will be come as dangerous as low sec mining is now, except for mining done deep in side blue territory. territory controlled by those same cartels. Considering the only place Arknor, the primary source of Megacyte, spawns is in hidden belts and systems with very low true sec. The large alliances able to provide safe space for null sec miners to mine in will be producing a large portion of the supply. The amount of Megacyte supply coming from smaller alliances and wormhole space will be minor. It will be easy for the cartels to buy up any supplies they are not producing themselves and establish their own sell price just like they did with technetium.

I know it is no easy feat, But you guys have pulled of much bigger campaigns that looked even more difficult from the outside. Perhaps this is the beginning of the bottom up income for the large alliances. The hardest part will be ensuring the miners sell the minerals thru the alliance channels.

What about my idea in this Post
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#57 - 2013-05-31 14:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
mynnna wrote:
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dmitri Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!



No, it won't be the "brave" miners taking on additional risk reaping the rewards, it will be the miners deep, deep in sovereign alliance space that have the new risks largely mitigated for them that will reap the rewards. Only the crazy people will mine in lowsec, non-sov null, and especially wormholes where escaping with any mined ore will become more of a matter of sheer luck, instead of a battle of scanning skills that it currently is.


Fine, so the miners who have joined an organization with the military power to secure their space will reap the extra rewards, and in turn said organization(s) will tax them for the privilege of mining.

Again, what's the problem here?


It isn't a problem to your style of play, and only your style of play. It is a problem, a big problem, to wormhole inhabitants, small groups, virtually anyone in lowsec, and highsec players that don't want to be forced to join one of the mega-alliances to be able to do anything non-PvP outside of CONCORD influence.


Y'know, I'm just not sure what you want me to say, so I'm going to say this: Sorry you felt wrongly entitled to safe mining in dangerous space.

It is not about safe mining, It is about being able to over come the risk through additional effort, and use of available tools. With these changes the average null sec miner will be relying totally on luck whether they get ganked or not while mining in null sec. Skill will no longer be a factor.

Before these changes miners had tools to mitigate the risk. If someone came looking to kill you, it was a contest of skill. Would they be able to scan you down and tackle you before you could spot them or there probes and bug out. The risk was high, but could be mitigated through effort and skill. If you were too predictable they could scan down the grav sites in your systems ahead of time, and return when they know you would be there. I do not mind getting ganked by some one putting that kind of thought and planing into it. More like a nice job, you got me. But to be vulnerable to every passing ship, with near zero chance of survival is not an acceptable level of risk. With the new system no amount of effort or skill will mitigate the exponentially high risk. It is not about being safe, it is about using intelligence and skill to survive in dangerous space, not rely on shear luck that nobody will come looking while you are there.

Sure you can safe up every time you see a hostile or neutral pop up in local. But how many systems are there outside of the big blue bubbles of sov null where you can mine for 10-15 minutes without a hostile or neutral passing through. Most systems I have mined in there are almost always several neuts and an occasional hostile in the system. In order to mine I had to rely on D-scan and quick reflexes whenever someone decided to pull out some probes and find me. As only a small percentage of null sec roaming ships have probe launchers this system worked well. Now it is useless. Where are my new tools to mitigate the new risk??

My main character meets all the requirements to join GOONSWARM. The reason I am not in GOONSWARM is because I decided not to apply. Although I do enjoy being part of the SA forums, great people there, and I am making some new friends.

Perhaps one day when I have more time to invest into the game I will join you, but currently I do not spend enough time in game to be an asset to any big alliance. I would ratter not join than feel like pubbie feeding off the efforts of others. If I did join you I would want to be a contributing member, and get involved in some of the impressive campaigns you guys run. If I was to become a GOON I would want to be a great GOON, not just a grunt, even though I would expect to work my way up from the bottom.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-05-31 16:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I don't see why miners changing professions or going to highsec would be a problem. That would mean less supply of high ends, which means high ends would rise in price, which means those that chose to brave the additional risk would reap additional rewards. The system works!

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


When the only mining ops able to take advantage of these insecure ore sites are ones ran by the same cartels that currently control the technetium market, megacyte will quickly come under their control, they will certainly have the resources to buy up any limited supplies outside of there own production. Are you ready for another GOON campaign that will rival the game breaking events and exploits of the initial faction wars changes?


You know, we didn't have any plans along these lines, but now that you mention it....

Oh, wait, no, Technetium had unique factors involved in the cartel that made it possible to cartel it in the first place and, contrary to the belief of many, it's not possible to just arbitrarily cartel any given material.

What unique factors?

Technetium comes from Moons spread around Null and low sec. The cartels control the majority of those moons thru brute force. They then cooperate with regards to the price they sell it for. Any supplies from out side are quickly bought up an re listed for the established price. Thus controlling the market. But you already know this.

With the changes coming in Odyssey Null sec mining will be come as dangerous as low sec mining is now, except for mining done deep in side blue territory. territory controlled by those same cartels. Considering the only place Arknor, the primary source of Megacyte, spawns is in hidden belts and systems with very low true sec. The large alliances able to provide safe space for null sec miners to mine in will be producing a large portion of the supply. The amount of Megacyte supply coming from smaller alliances and wormhole space will be minor. It will be easy for the cartels to buy up any supplies they are not producing themselves and establish their own sell price just like they did with technetium.

I know it is no easy feat, But you guys have pulled of much bigger campaigns that looked even more difficult from the outside. Perhaps this is the beginning of the bottom up income for the large alliances. The hardest part will be ensuring the miners sell the minerals thru the alliance channels.

What about my idea in this Post


Megacyte is found in every single grav site, which can spawn anywhere regardless of truesec, so long as the space is upgraded and the industry index maintained at the appropriate level. That means that anyone anywhere in sovereign nullsec can mine it. I'm going to overlook your hysterics about how "almost no one" will be able to mine anymore because they're not even worth considering.

On the flip side, Technetium is regionalized. It was all in the north. It was all regulated through corps and alliances, rather than individual members. And on top of that, Technetium was naturally bottlenecked already. Regulating how much was held back versus how much was sold never happened, because it wasn't necessary. There was never enough of it anyway, so why bother?

I know people like you love to blame things on cartels, or claim that a big bad scary cartel will form, but the fact of the matter is that arbitrary cartels just don't happen outside very specific confluences of events.


And your idea in that post has been addressed. To my knowledge it doesn't work that way anymore in any kind of site.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Indo Nira
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-05-31 16:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Indo Nira
mynnna wrote:


Y'know, I'm just not sure what you want me to say, so I'm going to say this: Sorry you felt wrongly entitled to safe mining in dangerous space.



with this train of thought you should advocate for the removal of local in nullsec, or maybe you just like talking out of your ass in matters that you're clueless about
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#60 - 2013-05-31 16:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Anti-social Tendencies
I find CCPs lack of response to the concerns raised about the grav site change to be very Intreguing. Are they trying to come up with more lame rationalizations? Are they frantically trying to re-evaluate the decision In light of of player feedback? Are they hoping their pet CSM will be able to cool the fires of discontent?

Who knows, since they certainly aren't responding.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE