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[Odyssey] Grav Site(Ore site)

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Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#1 - 2013-05-09 22:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zane Ziebold
First off i would like to say that the new scanning overview is ok but it need a few tweaks. It took me like 10-15 min to learn how to scan with the new system.

I would like to know why grave sites now pop up at 100 when i jump in to a system. I wanted to see if it the same in a wh and it is, took me like an hour in Sisi to find one all i kept getting was relic sites. I would like to voice my dislike of this Sad. I would not call my self an indy person i will usually go pvp over doing indy stuff . But i will go mine from time to time to build ammo and some T1 mods when it is slow and there is no pvp. The way it is now is that i will get a little warning if i am out mining ore and if a new wh pop in and someone wants to kill me. But now i will get no warning and just get poded , i would prefer not to have to pay 20 mil when ever i go out mining in wh space (i know different subject, equally as annoying).
I believe that this will hurt WH indy in most holes because no one will want to go get ore , the risk will not be worth the reward. I would would have to mine for 30-45 min just to replace my clone i lose, and i don't like mining longer that 15-20 min i just mine what i need to build what i need.

So why do the dev hate indy people in wh so much, do you want us to move out?

I had an idea split ice and ore in to 2 different sites that the ice belts you can see 100% when you jump in to system but grav sites still need to be scanned down.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#2 - 2013-05-09 22:36:24 UTC
You actually do get warning--new WHs into the system will show up as new signatures on the overlay. Hopefully they'll throw this stuff into some kind of a usable list, but there you go.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#3 - 2013-05-09 22:38:43 UTC
That would be ok but what happens when a wh open up in a chain your connected to so you do not get any new sigs just one dead ship and pod.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#4 - 2013-05-09 23:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Chris Winter wrote:
You actually do get warning--new WHs into the system will show up as new signatures on the overlay. Hopefully they'll throw this stuff into some kind of a usable list, but there you go.

Assuming you accidently are looking towards that new signature.
Seeing how you have quite a bunch of possible views (a bit like this), I wouldn't count on these odds. And it's actually worse, with you having other windows open and covering space.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#5 - 2013-05-09 23:50:42 UTC
Zane Ziebold wrote:
That would be ok but what happens when a wh open up in a chain your connected to so you do not get any new sigs just one dead ship and pod.

Don't mine in an open WH? Or put a scout on the hole.

As for the camera direction--yeah, that's why I said "hopefully they'll throw this stuff into some kind of a usable list."
Octoven
Stellar Production
#6 - 2013-05-10 03:00:42 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Zane Ziebold wrote:
That would be ok but what happens when a wh open up in a chain your connected to so you do not get any new sigs just one dead ship and pod.

Don't mine in an open WH? Or put a scout on the hole.

As for the camera direction--yeah, that's why I said "hopefully they'll throw this stuff into some kind of a usable list."


I hope they keep the list part of it out of the equation. To be honest that is a bit OP. You will basically be getting realtime information about sigs without needing to hit the analyze button. Yes, the 3D sensor overlay does this; however, the balanced part of it is that you need to be looking in the same direction that the new ID pops up to see it. If a new wh pops up behind your ship and your cam is focused in front of...you would never realize it popped in. thats like a 50% chance you will see a new one pop up.

If you had the list, you wouldnt need to rotate your cam and thus you have a 100% chance of new sigs in realtime popping up. So I would prefer that realtime data stay out of a list form, at least in space it requires you to actively be looking in the same direction instead of using an alt to sit there and you just glance at the screen occassionally.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#7 - 2013-05-10 03:51:09 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Zane Ziebold wrote:
That would be ok but what happens when a wh open up in a chain your connected to so you do not get any new sigs just one dead ship and pod.

Don't mine in an open WH? Or put a scout on the hole.

As for the camera direction--yeah, that's why I said "hopefully they'll throw this stuff into some kind of a usable list."


I hope they keep the list part of it out of the equation. To be honest that is a bit OP. You will basically be getting realtime information about sigs without needing to hit the analyze button. Yes, the 3D sensor overlay does this; however, the balanced part of it is that you need to be looking in the same direction that the new ID pops up to see it. If a new wh pops up behind your ship and your cam is focused in front of...you would never realize it popped in. thats like a 50% chance you will see a new one pop up.

If you had the list, you wouldnt need to rotate your cam and thus you have a 100% chance of new sigs in realtime popping up. So I would prefer that realtime data stay out of a list form, at least in space it requires you to actively be looking in the same direction instead of using an alt to sit there and you just glance at the screen occassionally.

It's hardly 50%--even if field of view were 90 degrees, you've got closer to a 1 in 6 chance of looking in the right direction at any given time. FOV is rather lower than that, so you actually have a fairly low chance of looking in the right direction.

Of course, that's ignoring things like how sigs always spawn within 4AU of a celestial--if for example you're mining near an outer planet,keeping your camera pointed toward the sun & inner planets gives you a much higher chance.

My point stands that having to swivel your camera all over the place to see things isn't fun and is a lot less usable than a list. I could care less if the thing was automatic all the time--if I had to hit a button to see a list, but not get real time updates, that's a trade I'd happily make.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#8 - 2013-05-11 06:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zane Ziebold
Chris Winter wrote:
Zane Ziebold wrote:
That would be ok but what happens when a wh open up in a chain your connected to so you do not get any new sigs just one dead ship and pod.

Don't mine in an open WH? Or put a scout on the hole.

As for the camera direction--yeah, that's why I said "hopefully they'll throw this stuff into some kind of a usable list."



I do not have enough alts to sit on different wh in my home system. I do not want to roll holes if people are out scanning looking for pew or some thing else.

But i still want to know why CCP thinks changing the grav sites is a good thing.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#9 - 2013-05-11 19:05:28 UTC
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#10 - 2013-05-13 21:42:57 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.


So CCP wants to make it better for null and hurts WH alliances, really CCP do you hate people living in WH space that much. I really do not see a lot of miners out in null and the ones i do it going to be easier for to gank them.

If it because of ice bet now spawning in HS make the ice miner go scan it's no hard. it will also let them be a little safer.
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#11 - 2013-05-13 22:55:31 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.


Meh... If that were the goal, A better solution would be to raise the Sig strength of Grav sites to make them easy to scan.

If the goal is to make Null/WH Indy players more viable PvP targets, with the end goal of more Pew... it fails at that too... who really wants to sit around and babysit a mining fleet... And if you just stay in system, barges go pop so fast ... it does not matter that you were there at all.
The end result is that Indy players go POP and get pissed off .... and the rest of us get no Pew ... Just some one sided ganks, good padding for the KB, but not all that fun.
Mhax Arthie
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-05-14 09:25:16 UTC
Even if Im not a miner, I'm kinda annoyed about this change because I usually make an isk or two by selling the BM's of the gravi sites to the indy people/corps/friends. I just dont understand this change, the gravi sites was like a reward for those skilled enough to scan them down. Now any newb can see them, whats the point in being an anomaly if they are open for visitors like any other regular belts?!

Also these sites will be the gankers paradise. I made a test with a friend of mine who parked a Hulk in a ore/gravi site, took me about 8-10 seconds to have a point on him soon after I landed in his system. He didn't even had time to align and warp out. If this how it supose to work, then I expect a major raise on the high end mineral prices as none will mine these sites just because no pvp player will wanna spend hours babysiting some miners.

Some people say that there will be more than one ore site in the systems, so there is no way that a ganker will be able to land right on the top of the miners who mine these sites. Well, I made a huge trip starting from Jita up to far north through Venal and I saw no system where was more than one ore site.The only spot where I saw 2 was a WH. Also, there was none in any sov space, I saw ore sites only in hi sec and npc space (and WH too).. I supose you will still need the indy upgrade to make them spawn in sov space and will be visible only for your alliance?

Same goes for the ice blets, but I supose no foul will mine ice in nullsec, it will be still cheaper to buy it from the empire.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-05-14 18:51:31 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.


Actually, it is a mega NERF to null mining.

Before, null miners could scan down a grav site that spawned at downtime, and be sure no red's or neuts had it bookmarked until they'd been in system long enough to probe it out. Very safe.

Now, no need to probe it out. Neut jumps into system, instantly sees all the mining sites, warps to one.... lights cyno... boom.

Basically, the reason null needed trit added to grav site ore was because few people mined the belts. Too dangerous as they didn't need to be scanned down. Well, now ALL mining sites are as easy to find as the old belts.



I think CCP's plan is that there would be more boom. The real result will be more warp bubbles around the mining sites.

Instead of probing down the sites in minutes, now miners will have to spend an hour anchoring bubbles.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-05-14 18:57:15 UTC
And why is CCP doing this?

My guess is that they'd plan to do the same with ore that they did with ice. Remove belts and make them all sigs. Fast to mine out, then have to wait for respawn.

It fits their comments about wanting to remove tediousness. It meets USA players demands that something be done about downtime respawn being uinfair. It meets their long-term goal of totally removing daily downtime.

I'm guessing that in the end, they got cold feet based on potential changes to carebear subscription rates of limited resources and hours on end of nothing to do while waiting for respawn. So, they are trying out the changes with ice to judge the effects.


Just a guess, of course.. but it does seem to fit with other comments they were making and some other long term goals.
Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#15 - 2013-05-29 01:31:50 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
And why is CCP doing this?

My guess is that they'd plan to do the same with ore that they did with ice. Remove belts and make them all sigs. Fast to mine out, then have to wait for respawn.

It fits their comments about wanting to remove tediousness. It meets USA players demands that something be done about downtime respawn being uinfair. It meets their long-term goal of totally removing daily downtime.

I'm guessing that in the end, they got cold feet based on potential changes to carebear subscription rates of limited resources and hours on end of nothing to do while waiting for respawn. So, they are trying out the changes with ice to judge the effects.


Just a guess, of course.. but it does seem to fit with other comments they were making and some other long term goals.


Bump

I still want to know. Shocked
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#16 - 2013-05-29 05:13:08 UTC
Zane Ziebold wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.


So CCP wants to make it better for null and hurts WH alliances, really CCP do you hate people living in WH space that much. I really do not see a lot of miners out in null and the ones i do it going to be easier for to gank them.

If it because of ice bet now spawning in HS make the ice miner go scan it's no hard. it will also let them be a little safer.


Can't give the bots TOO hard of a time to rescript, else CCP might lose some subscriptions!
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#17 - 2013-05-29 05:15:50 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.


Actually, it is a mega NERF to null mining.

Before, null miners could scan down a grav site that spawned at downtime, and be sure no red's or neuts had it bookmarked until they'd been in system long enough to probe it out. Very safe.

Now, no need to probe it out. Neut jumps into system, instantly sees all the mining sites, warps to one.... lights cyno... boom.

Basically, the reason null needed trit added to grav site ore was because few people mined the belts. Too dangerous as they didn't need to be scanned down. Well, now ALL mining sites are as easy to find as the old belts.



I think CCP's plan is that there would be more boom. The real result will be more warp bubbles around the mining sites.

Instead of probing down the sites in minutes, now miners will have to spend an hour anchoring bubbles.


You think THAT'S bad? Try wormhole mining. Watching DSCAN every 15 seconds just isn't good enough anymore because that wasn't dangerous enough apparently.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#18 - 2013-05-29 05:17:59 UTC
Wenthrial Solamar wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
It is a slight buff to nullsec, miners out there won't need to keep scanning all the time and maintain specialised skills to keep the ores flowing in. This is a good thing for null alliances.


Meh... If that were the goal, A better solution would be to raise the Sig strength of Grav sites to make them easy to scan.

If the goal is to make Null/WH Indy players more viable PvP targets, with the end goal of more Pew... it fails at that too... who really wants to sit around and babysit a mining fleet... And if you just stay in system, barges go pop so fast ... it does not matter that you were there at all.
The end result is that Indy players go POP and get pissed off .... and the rest of us get no Pew ... Just some one sided ganks, good padding for the KB, but not all that fun.


I had a post with almost the exact same wording when they announced it. It got ignored even harder than the concerns raised over the loot pinata and hacking.
Erloas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-05-29 14:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Erloas
One thing to consider is that now belts are just as safe as signatures. So even if they can jump into the system and know right where the signature is they don't necessarily know where you are. In a system with 5 belts it doesn't take long to hit them all and you have a 20% chance of hitting the miner on your first belt choice. However in a system with 20 belts it takes quite a while to visit each belt and you only have a 5% chance of hitting the right belt on your first jump.

Given the directional scanner will help narrow down your location, but considering most belts are pretty close together it still doesn't say exactly which one you are in.

So there is a good chance as a miner in a normal belt that you would have time to get to warp before you are found and tackled. If you happen to be in a system with ice as well there is a good chance anyone looking for miners to pop would hit the ice sigs first, any other ore sigs and then start hitting the belts, so a decent amount of time to escape as long as you are paying attention.
xxTERRORISTxx
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
#20 - 2013-05-29 18:30:41 UTC
Its okay Zane, you tried
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